Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

Can I sue the owner for bad taste?

BADNBLK

iTrader: (11)

You can tell by the prop rod...

Linson

okay, but honestly, bother, the **** that you came up with is about as INSIDE the box as is possible. LED tail lights; ambiant lighting; GPS navigation...you're so far inside the box right now, you're ***** deep in the box's ***.

Linson

but it stands to reason though...i'll just bet that is the same thing a gray-beard thinks when he sees a 3rd gen.

but truth be told, i'm not in love with the new Camaros either. not because of the way it differs from a 4th gen, but because the ways it stayed the same: too big, too bulky, too too much plastic. much like a 4th gen, the entire body looks like its made out of plastic panels that snap together. the "retro" guages are just ugly as ****, and even the steering wheel, while nice and thick, is also too damn ugly to look at. i loved the prototype which was lower, wider, and seemed to be etched from titanium. am a little disapointed in the production model which seems molded from plastic.

Linson

wow, dude! wrong again.

the facts are these: in the '90s (LT1/LS1 years) the Mustang GT, stock for stock and mod for mod, was outclassed by the F-bodies.

you basically needed a Cobra mustang to be in the same league as a Z28 or TA.

the difference in performance between a Z28/Formula/TA, and a Camaro SS/WS6/Firehawk was negligible - as in not nearly enough to justify the price of the SS/WS6/Firehawk.

i dont know where youre getting that the Mustang Cobra was out-performing the Camaro SS or the WS6 in the late '90's early 00's, but it's incorrect.

and FWIW, the Mustang GT was supposed to be the competetor of the Z28/TA. as it happened, the Cobra was the only thing that could compete in the same class.

Linson

dude, i like it alot. i am in agreement with alot of it. alot of people dont care for what i have to say either. my theory is has long been that 1st gens are associated with hot-rods and get that respect because people hot rodded them - extensively. a Camaro (or Firebird) isnt a car that is meant to be left stock. if more people were building more badass third gens *shrug* ya know what, i dont want to turn this topic into that, so lets just say i appreciate your opinions.

kmcn47

only 4th gen i'd own, and still wouldn't wanna be seen in it because of the doucheness of 4th gens



and SHAAAAAAAAME on anyone who doesn't know what this^ is

Linson

i agree and disagree. i agree with you that our 3rd gens are not as amenable to certain MAJOR modifications as an old muscle car. i also agree that certain modifications are not as necessary. and i definitely agree that deviations from factory body lines typically detract from a 3rd gens good appearance - which isnt to say that our 3rd gens' sleek body lines cannot be enhanced by changing the stance and attitude of the car.

where i disagree first and foremost is to categorize 1st gens and other older muscle era cars as "junky" or in any other negative sense. 1. it just sounds ridiculous to deny the fact that old muscle cars like the ones in you depicted are badass. 2. it seems hypocritical for us as a community to complain that 4th and 5th genners dont respect their heritage nor the fact that without 3rd gens there would be no 4th or 5th gens - and then in the same breath to **** on 1st gens.

next, GM left plenty to be desired when they designed the 3rd gen. as good as the handling characteristics are compared to their predecessors, performance was compromised in a big way, especially on the earlier models.

as much as i would like to say that the types of "pro-touring type" builds you've depicted are EXACTLY the types of builds we need more of in the 3rd gen community - yes i do realize that those kinds of builds take ALOT of $$$. but your average grey-beard isnt putting THAT kind of money into his '72 or Older either. i just wish for a day when, that old guy can pull up next to me in his Chevelle, or some other guy can pull up next to me in his 5th gen or whatever...and does he want to try me? based on the reputation of what 3rd gens have become, he's not sure that he does.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

When I say junky, I just meant in terrible condition. Old rusty shells drug out of a field.

The old cars werent any faster than our 3rd gens stock.

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/e...scleCarsP1.jpg
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/e...scleCarsP2.jpg
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/e...scleCarsP3.jpg
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/e...scleCarsP4.jpg








Not much you can do about perceptions, though. 90 percent of this stuff is about what the majority of car people with money view as nostalgic.

Linson

[quote=InfernalVortex;5376833]

okay. understood. but still, i mean, more power to 'em, right?


i've been making that same argument for years. perception. perception. all of those low-performing LO3's they made didn't help.

aarivers

Well to get back to your original question. To be honest all the stuff your listing is pretty inside the box stuff. Not that it wouldn't help spruce up the looks some, but pretty mild.

I would have to decide what direction to go with the car, pro touring, grand touring, racing..etc. If I where to try and go outside the box for a 3rd gen and had some pretty deep pockets, I would go the GT route, if I wanted a pure performance machine I would go with a Corvette.The Camaro is definitely more of GT car in my opinion.

I would start by swapping in the LFX V6/manual trans combo from a MY2012 Camaro. Light weight, fuel efficient, low emissions, and about 150more HP than my 305 has. It's a win/win..win.

That old slow heavy steering has got to go also. I would love to adapt the electric assisted steering from a MINI cooper to this car, I loved how quick it would respond and the feedback you got from the road in my wife's Cooper S was awesome.

On the rear end. IRS has been done, but it's the way I would go. Cantilever inboard shocks would be on my list, this also would also allow me to lower the gas tank down since the rear pumpkin would be in a fixed position.

Interior wise, I would wrap all the crappy plastic panels with leather, the a-pillar plastic would get covered in headliner material. Adapting the automatic climate control out of something like a Bonneville would be my next step. I like the look of the original dash, but GTA door panels would replace the flat stockers. I would flush over all the fake screw heads, and add some stealth to the other screw locations. Heated seats and mirrors would be in order, along with a later model steering wheel with radio and nav controls. Obviously Navigation would be installed.

Outside, for me it's hard to improve on the 91-92 Camaro looks, I would add a complete undercar belly pan to smooth out the airflow since it's pretty rough under there and that rear bumper cover is just a big parachute from the factory.

So while it's not over the top I think it's all in the details for our cars. Obviously I didn't touch on everything, and it's not all out of the box, but I think it's a good start.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Of course, but I was just demonstrating the sheer amount of work and money people put into these things. Which is great, Im glad they exist. But thats what we're competing with. Guys that are willing to take a car that's basically part of a firewall and a couple of door frames and a place to mount trunk hinges, and they make them into the most gorgeous street machines in the world. Plus the fact that there's so much room for improvement on those... they are drastically improved in all aspects of performance, and they are even more drastically improved in appearance, and they already looked great to begin with.

Just lowering a thirdgen and throwing wheels on it will make it a jaw dropper, but it will never quite have the impact some of these radical pro touring cars have.

Dabesiv

iTrader: (1)

I have done 1,2, and 4 but have the sequential tail lights as well as a few other things to set mine apart from the average thirdgen and I highly recommend them all

firechicken1992

that is effing beautiful xD

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

I dont see why no one has replaced the Firebird light panels with lexan/glass cut to shape, and then just installed some real headlights behind it.





To me pop up headlights are an outdated cure to a problem we've managed to solve.

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

Because that requires cutting and partially fabbing a new upper radiator core support.

kmcn47

makes it look alot like a 300zx to me

DethVenture

You beat me to it.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Its because that Fiero used 300ZX headlights. There are plenty of other cars with the same idea. Its a trend started in endurance racing where they needed headlights, but needed them to be aerodynamic. The OEMs have figured this out as of the late 80s. Pop up head lights do a great job of making the front of a car look dull and being aerodynamic. Why not add some punctuation and KEEP your decent aerodynamics?

Examples:










The pop up headlights were part of making the car more aerodynamic, they did a good job on that. But I imagine in those days the gimmick of having "pop up" lights, plus the logistical issues of making covered headlights using late 70s technology. Even Ferrari was using pop up headlights back then. In the 70s they had barely figured out how to make square headlamps, much less angled/tilted ones. They were still essentially big light bulbs. Ever notice how all the muscle cars of the 60s had round headlights? The Trans Am in the 70s was one of the first to get square headlights. Sealed beam headlights put a lot of constraints on the shape of the lights, so they couldnt just go straight to the most body-integrated, aerodynamic shape possible in those days. The covers were the racing solution, probably too expensive/complicated/unnecessary for mass production on most cars for a while. Maybe they didnt like the look of hte rivets. Maybe they were scratch-prone lexan... who knows, but technology has come a long way. Nowadays they've figured out how to do it with plastic, much easier than playing with the glass and lexan they were stuck with back then.

Just saying, if you want to modernize the car but not kill its spirit, some sleek covered headlamps would be the best way to do it, IMO. If they were built today... that's how they would do them.

When I see firebirds with the pop up lights these days, most of em are stuck up even when off, or one lights comes up and the other doesn't, or they're not even when they're up, or they're not even when they're down. Just makes the whole front end of the car look bad usually. It's just a terrible design idea in a modern context. Its difficult to implement correctly, overly complex, and prone to misalignments and failures. At the time it was trendy and probably one of the better ways to do it, but not so much today.

Compared to the cars the first and second gen guys build, that's child's play.

IMissMy86TA

the thirdgens will rise in value when old farts (like me-45) retire and want the car they had in HS or wanted in HS or dreamed of. its simple.
btw that yellow fiero with the lexon covers.. why not do that? cause its hideous!!!
ours had the increasing HP and stock to stock I look forward to a day next to a 67 or 69 camaro.. at a strip ...lol...a "little" 305 that could surprise them..
wont happen since I dont abuse mine at the strips I may take one day but i really dont know. 0-60 in 6.5 aint bad tho.
look out minivans!

Javier87z28

iTrader: (1)

Interesting thread lol

90 Z28SS

I dont mean to offend if I do, but the items you listed arent really thinking outside the box. They are probably the most common things done to cars and trucks today as even people not into the enthusiast side of cars do all that stuff to the Camrys.

I dont think its the "look" as third gens are gorgeous machines. Its the tech. Theres alot of badass third gens out there, but theres not many capitalizing on the latest of technologies. These car have made the rounds in magazines for years so I could understand there being no particular interest in covering them unless they are a standout

Here is a brief ramble of the direction I would/am going to take with next 3rd gen build.

-Stock Body
- stock appearing lighting ect. I would/have use/used LED's for everything but the headlights but I like to use the OEM housing and make it look it could have been stock. All the junk aftermaket LED stuff is exactly that...junk. Complimented by a proper HID conversion using a HID projector in a 4x6 housing.
-Set the car up to handle. Update the front to 4th gen style coil overs , ditch the panhard rod for a watts link. Use something like a 18x10 front/18x12 rear in something like a CCW classic with gold powder coated centers to emulate stock. Minitub the rear wheel housing to clear 345 tire
-Ditch the stock wiring for the a work of art wiring system like ISIS. Its not cheap but it is far superior to traditional automotive wiring and it makes the door wide open to do really what ever you want wiring wise. Couple it with Vintage air gen IV, its plug and play with ISIS. ISIS also opens up the door to any type of switch you want including any new OEM can-bus powered switch.
-Replace the factory gauges with speed-hut gauges in the OEM locations
-As far engine goes I would swap in a LS( me imparticular an e85 fueled single turbo with meth injection and no intercooler). But there is lots of ways to build a potent TPI and a few newer technologies to compliment it like controlling it with an LS ignition system, cableless throttle body and gas pedal and a LS PCM.
-If your gonna run an auto covert to paddle shifted 6 speed auto unit. Companies like TCI ect, have the 6 speed auto units and paddle shifters to retro into older cars. If your a di-hard gear banger like me my choice would be t56 upgraded to TR6060 spec

Of course all that stuff I mentioned will make for a pretty expensive build. I think third gens are getting to point where people are starting to drop some serious coin into them building it in a way guys are building all the pro-touring type 1st and 2nd gens, or the higher end drag race cars but there are still far more budget builds. In the realm of magazines and the sponsors/advertisers they need to cater to then to survive, commonly modded budget builds arent going to get much coverage in an old car like the 3 gens. The 4th gens are getting away with good coverage still because alot of people are still commonly dumping bucketloads of cash modding them.

I dunno, thats the formula Im using on my next third gen build. I want my third gen to look like a stockish 3rd gen but be drenched in creative use of technologies throughout. There is so much cool stuff out at the moment with drivetrain, electrical and suspension. Ive been modding 3rd and 4th gens for years, next time is gonna be a bit different.

Javier87z28

iTrader: (1)

Make sure to start a thread

83HOZ

That means: SPEND MONEY on QUALITY parts that fit RIGHT for a CLASSY appearance and good performance.

Linson

while i dont agree that that is necessarilly synonamous with "thinking outside the box" i do agree that that is exactly what more Third Gen'ers need to be doing. come to think of it though, what you said could very well be what the magazine writer was talking about.

the Third-Gen-Specific performance aftermarket is pretty much non-existent. go on a web-site like, i dunno, Hawks or something - one that has categories such as 82-92, LT1, LS1, 5th Gen... click on any of the others and you've got brake kits, wheel/tire packages, exhausts, cold air intakes - everything. click on 82-92 and you've got a factory replacement gromet, and at best, some Edelbrock TPI runners.

with little to no aftermarket, this gives the impression that there is little to no interest in Third Gens. I have the impression that there is little interest in Third Gens. and this has probably given more than a couple potential Third-Gen hot-rodders the impression that 3rds are not a platform that readilly lends itself to hot-rodding. so, this becomes a self fulfilling prophecy, wrapped in a vicious cycle, shoved up the *** of an enigma.

and this all goes back to my age old argument that if 1st-Gen'ers didnt hot-rod the **** outta their cars back in the day, there would be no interest in them today - stock or otherwise.

Ruckusz28

iTrader: (3)

That was deep bro.

zenish

i don't hate the pop up headlights.they look bad when they are up but whos going to see that if its dark or raining?i also love the 67-73 camaros and wish i had one.i want a lsi and six speed for my car but probably never will be able to afford one. im also looking at the 5.3s.i don't love the camaro dash but the forth gen dashes swapped in aren't much better.

cz28coptzer327

omg i love that look..

cz28coptzer327

what happened to the pics of this?.. im curious to see the whole car... any cliue where to find them?

MintWS6FORMULA

Yeah, I subscribe to High Performance Pontiac. They virtually ignore 3rd gens also. (Their excuse is something like "We don't see any worthy of featuring in the magazine when we visit shows like the TA Nats", or some BS like that.) They'd rather feature someone's Goat clone, 4th Gen, or 2nd gen. I'm debating whether to be happy (ignoring our cars will make them less popular and people will naively part with them, making them more rare) or angry. I've notice the 3rd Gens are increasing in value in the past few years, and they are really on the verge of becoming desired collector cars, just like the 2nd Gens. These cars, IMO, look much better than the 4th Gens, especially the early 4th Gen Camaros.

MintWS6FORMULA

They already have. You must not have been following NADA Guides lately. Mint 3rd Gens bottomed out around $3,000 or so a few years ago, and are now back up to around $8,000. It's gonna catch a lot of people by surprise in a few years when they're "what the H*ll? When did that happen?".

Ruckusz28

iTrader: (3)

Well said. Last year when I began building my IROC a lot of my friends thought that I was crazy. Now that its on the road (and toasting most cars out there that they thought were quick) they have began paying attention to what's out there on craigslist.

The fact is, if you want something nice - you are going to pay for it. There's a lot of third gens out there, but the problem is that most of them are ROACHED OUT. I mean no offense to anybody's car by that statement, but it's an observation that I'm sure we all have made. Because of the low entry cost in the past, these cars became great platforms for people to get into the hobby. As entry level hobbyists, the skillsets to build a "magazine worthy" car may have been absent which is what brought on the negative stigma about the infamous "turd gen".

The beauty of communities such as this is that we can work together, provide each other positive reenforcement, and spread the knowledge needed to make these cars great.

IMissMy86TA

they were 10K in NADA and oldcar price guide 4 years ago when I bought my car. I really dont think that 8K is high for a car that sold new at 20-25K... they will get past that in 10 to 15 years

tonys91rs

iTrader: (17)

then again, if third gens were built today, this is what we would have:


no imagination

blackgloves

this!

Too much trailer park in our Generation unfortunately

IROZINCO

iTrader: (1)

I think its interesting that the 'official' magazines don't pay much attention to them. Because people still do! When i take mine out for a run, that usually involves a stop at a gas station, and for some food. (one thing i havent' seen mentioned here, if I built one TODAY, i'd figure out how to get a 20 gal gas tank in it, the range is TOO short on stock, lol) And at least one person will make a comment on the car, ranging from 'what year is that?" to "LOVE that car!". And, its usually the teen and twenty somethings! The ones working at the gas station or fast food place. The millenials that the 'experts' say aren't into cars. Last week I pulled into a taco bell, and the gal at the 2nd window said there was a bet going on in the restaurant as to what kind of car it was, and was it a camaro or a corvette? Well, since it IS the l98, i told them they were both partially right, lol. SO regardless of the magazines, they can and do still attract attention. If the 'experts' don't like em, too bad, WE love our cars and that is what counts!

Benc1

iTrader: (10)

That's a cool concept.

fozzi58

interesting thread.

I'm hoping my new project is mag worthy and I am planning the car carefully. A couple of observations.

I'm closing in on 40yo and I've pretty much owned a lot of 2nd & 3rd gens through my "impressionable years". I love my 4th gen (garage queen), but I still remember clear as day trying to squeeze any ounce of power out of my 305ci 78 FB Esprit. But the 3rds were my first love so my project is a 3rd. I know and respect the history.

I did not know about ISIS so this is something that I will be adding to my list of to do's & research.

I like my pop up lights and they are staying.

I probably won't modify the body lines except change out the 89 formy wing for the 91-92 formy/ta wing.

I was debating on a 231 turbo 6 (TTA motor) or a 383. I'm 99% sure I'm doing a bowtie block @ 406ci with a turbo so I'm putting $9k into the motor. Debating a 6 speed auto (6l80e + tunnel fab work) or just a well built 2004r. Full suspension redo including a watts link.

I'm trying to figure out how to do an LCD dash but the analog to serial to conversion is a little slow even with a top notch carputer, but this is a massive project I plan on undertaking.

I'm shooting for stars and hoping to hit the moon. If you can't mag respect with a custom mod car like I am planning on, then there's no hope.

paul_huryk

I went through this thread and noticed that with few exceptions, everything mentioned is being done (as in you can buy these things), or are just swaps. Nice, but not really going to modernize something designed in the 70's that was 8 to 10 years ahead in 1981 when they first hit the dealers.

I'm more into the design part of modernizing changes and how that would work.

Here is what I would do:

1) Get rid of the curved sides of the car, where it is widest at the moulding and curves in to the window on top and also the chassis underneath. That is pure 70's design and needs to be flat like most new cars top to bottom with accents.

2) Eliminate the 2'+ of front and rear overhang. Look at a new BMW, Audi, or anything super stylish and you will notice very minimal car in front of the front tires and rear of the rear tires. Will also allow you to bring down the nose 3"+ and not scrape, improving aerodynamics.

3) Flush mount side windows!

4) Modern dashboard - curved with modern pods where they need to be ergonomically.

5) Fiberglass or CF hood and decklid with modern designs - no reason to use heavy steel which does nothing other than weigh a lot. Would be an excellent idea to vent all the radiator air out of the hood for less drag and much better cooling.

6) Smooth underbelly to lessen drag and lift at speed.

7) Flush mounted door handles and locks.

8) Coil overs in front - if only to make the car ride a bit better for more customer appeal (my only mechanical suggestion).