I'm glad that people who actually know what they are talking about posted here. Thank you. A very good point was made about ground effects and their functionality. Show me one race car that doesn't have some sort of ground effects package. Spoilers definately help on either reducing drag, or creating downforce, but the real advantages in aero come from good ground fx and properly venting the engine bay which is another point often overlooked. One small trick that anyone can use to increase stability at high speeds is to raise the rear of the hood so that high pressure air in the engine bay can escape. This is an old trick that chevelle owner did back in the day to keep the front end from floating at the end of the quarter.

Yep, and, yep. By lowering the pressure underneath the car, the car will "sit down" more. You should all look up "chin spoilers". And I'm not talking about these lame looking front bumpers that I've seen advertised as chin spoilers, with their air induction holes and funky grills and fog light holes and other crap. I'm talking about a boring little 1-2 inch "lip" that hangs below the front bumper. It should be even with the extreme front of the bumper. Just by reducing airflow underneath, you create a more dramatic low pressure zone underneath the car- and that causes the high pressure zone above the car to push the car closer to the road. (Like Jim said, the "vacuum".) Yes it'll affect cooling, but half of you are going over 150 MPH, so you're probably not worried about anything at all, anyway.

Go look at pictures of an '82 trans am- the most aerodynamic Firebird of them all, designed in a wind tunnel. How big was it's spoiler?

Oh, but then again, a chin spoiler doesn't look cool, does it? I wonder if, half the time, the car "feels more secure" because the damn wind resistance is slowing the car down!

The 84 Trans Am was the most aerodynamic, at least up unil 84.

I am also very pleased to see some people chiming into this conversation from several continents that know what they are talking about.

A spoiler does not make a car aerodynamic, or balanced, or stable, any more than a bigger cam makes it "fast". The wrong cam will slow you down. I think spoilers have gotten a bad name because it has become more about style than function. If you choose to run a giant spoiler because you like how it looks, be a man and admit it. And don't cry because someone else doesn't like it. I see import cars with wings wider than the car itself. I know it's for looks, but it looks way out of balance to the rest of the car to me.

Aerodynamics are complex, and just like suspension and engine mods, you need to make mods that work togther as a package, functionally AND visually. Look at the posting by DM91RS of the Vette above. Yes, it has a wing the size of a bathroom door, but look at what has been done to keep the air out from under the car. The spoiler matches the ground effects, matches the engine output and the purpose of the car. Compare it with the photo above of the stock Trans Am. The aerodynamics are part of a total package. To pull the spoiler off of the GTP Vette and put in on the stock TA would be out of balance, and would probably make it go slower, not to mention look silly (IMHO). But if you like how it looks, and want downforce and lots of drag, go for it.

I'm gonna go out and look at my back bumper cover now. 91black_rsLO3 made some very intelligent observations about the drag happening under the car.

Yep.....the aero packages have to be tested to prove anything. The silver vette photos with the new spec wing installed made more downforce with LESS drag than the older flat blade spoiler like this.

Ok some are starting to understand my point.

Sometimes Stock cars (I mean just in case showroom cars) are not designed making the greatest effort in aerodinamics, couse as you should know Wind Tunnels are pretty expensive machinery, so normally the cars are designed (old cars) with what the designers think are good lines, so the car is stable at an intended speed (Whats the point of making a car that will never go 200mph stable at this speed?) and with the less drag posible, the the car is tested in wind tunnels, and is tunned for drag and stability at high speed with a scientific instrument, as everything that is mass produced always you have to make some compromises, being cost the higher one (in production cars anyway) and mass marked or intended marked appeal (people only buy things that are attractive in one or other way).

Normally ground effect kits should be functional and be researched in races and or wind tunnels that is their purpouse, but the costs get in the way to make those accesories attractive to the possible buyer so real manufacturers had to compete with compnies that dont do any research at all and just make cheap products that are all eye candy.

Before you simply add parts that where studied and proved in races (thats why ricers cars look so much like rally cars) and put those pieces in standard cars, but the imitator marked I think have destroyed this marked with look a like pieces that are not an exact duplicate and that dont have all the function of the original.

Yes the Ground FX package of that Firebird look cool, it serves the purpouse of getting a better drag coeficient, was cost effective, and maintain the original lines that people like, but if they wanted to make it better (there are very simple things that would lover the drag of this car like smothed door handles, rearview mirrors, park light assembly, smaller gaps between the body panels, smother body glass junction, etc) the cost would skyrocket and the marked would not be interested.

So if we have an adjustable front and rear spoiler we can make a car with much more grip than a standard one (the looks well be affected of course) then we smoth everything we can under and bellow the body to get less drag, and what you have a car that perform better consumming less fuel or that have a better high speed performance (cornering, acceleration, stability) than a standard one.

The difference between adjustable and not adjustable parts is huge (Like in suspenssion parts), and if the parts are designed for the specific car the parts can be made equaly effective without looking out of place.

I dont know if I share this with the majority, but to me a ***** is a car that is all about looks, that its only purpouse is to look impressive, without the performance to back it.

Is just the opposite of an sleeper.

They both exist in several grades, full ricers and full sleepers.

For example what function could have installing a really big autogauge tach with a maximum 10k rpms in a car wich engine can only make 4k and is otherwise completely stock? Or installin something that looks like you have a complete NOS sistem instaled and its not functional?

Last week I was in this Extreme Tuning event in a Mall, and there was not a single car that was worth respect, just a ton of lights, very big sound sistems, K&N filters, very big weels (With very tiny brakes sometimes you could not see the rear drum brakes!!!), and every possible interior and exterior toy you can imagine. There where 3 cars with headers, and rollbars, a porsche 356B GS 2000 full race, competing for the first place.

There where in the event (not in the competition) a very nice 69 camaro RS (With four weel Baer Disc Brakes really huge) a completely nicely restored 71 Mustang, and a pair of ricers dreams an RX7 (I would accepted it as a gift anytime) and a copycat Fast and the Furious Mitsub Eclipse. Both with Bigger turbos, Intercoolers, NOS, Bigger Weels, Brakes and Roolbars.

Those are not ricers no matter what anyone tell me, I would espend that money somewhere else, but those are both serious street machines the Eclipse had easily $30k on important stuff the RX7 had less. (That money would buy me everything I plann to bolt to my car in the next 15 years)

.............

I agree with you 100%. The misconception happens because alot of people on this messageboard have never seen a properly built serious import/sport compact. Most of them only see true ricers with outrageous aerokits, spoilers, etc and no performance to back it up. So they will automatically assume that anyone who enjoys that style (slammed, big wheels, sleek aerokit) has no performance to back it up.

I try to explain to them that the imports/ricers are copying the styling (and in some cases functionality) that comes from european rally racing and GT racing but they dont seem to understand. They think that ricers originally came up with these styles and they are all useless. I have seen first hand a bunch of serious sport compacts/imports and I do respect them. In Japan alot of the cars these guys tease are highly modified pushing over 600 hp on high boost and do reach speeds over 200 mph on Japan's freeways. In alot of cases if the cars did not have the aerokits and wings they would crash at those speeds taking turns. I remember watching an incam of a 1012 hp Nissan Skyline hitting 212 mph in a tunnel with full aerokit and wing and inside the car it looked like he was going 60 (very smooth and stable). I am certain without the aeroparts it would be very unstable.

I'll admit that I like the smooth newer generation style that alot of imports have, so maybe I'm biased, but I also know that they can be functional if designed correctly. Maybe I would like to apply some of that style and functionality to my Camaro but I'll make sure not to show anyone here. Unfortunately, as others have found out, very few people on this messageboard are at the maturity level to just understand that other people might like other styles and they just have to deal with that fact. Most of them would rather like to add in their comments and talk down instead of trying to learn something or do something productive. Pretty sad really.

Well, I got a different spoiler now,

Thats the equivalent of having my pregnant cat sit in the back of the car.

I know you said this as a joke, but is not really like that, that weight only affect the car when going at certain speed and it will not affect the centrifugal forces when taking a curv.

Its not the same having a 45 pound toolbok in your trunk that having a wing that makes 45 pounds at 120mph.

Equaly is not the same a 4000 pounds car with 600 hp engine than a 2700 pounds one with only 405 hp, if they both have the same drag the 600 hp one will have a higher top speed (not much more as the resistance increases square by the speed) they will accelerate the same as the weight hp ratio is the same, but you will have less tire wear (less wear in general) and the light one will spank the heavy in any curv, If you add spoilers and wings to the light one the passing speed in a curv will increase a lot (if that is do properly).

Enzo once toll that if he can chosse between having 30 hp more or 30kg less he will chose the Kg, as that will win any race.

(In the first weight comparission Im taking in acount a torque curve that is similar in both engines)

What do you think what makes a supercar (Lambo, Ferrari, Porsche, Lotus, McLaren, Saleen, etc) so fast, is reduced weight, great aerodinamic shape, high downforce, great weight distribution, great suspenssion.

If anyone know what a Lotus Superseven is, he can understand the car had between 100hp and 200hp but it weight so little that it could outhanddle the other cars, it won so much races that they banned it and created special races with only those cars.

hey my mostly stock (header/filter) car will hit 140
and I only paid 2200 for it

you can tune a FWD car to oversteer even when on the throttle so if you tune it as such then a wing might be helpfull I guess??? but hwy tune it so much you need a wing also

why do you think a lot of newer cars on the very rear they have a lip that goes straight out rather then just a curve

it helps with airflow over that section which will reduce that effect

as someone else said if it is just import-like why the hell would the C5R corvette have a wing on the back of its car

or what about the F50 ferarri? doesn't it have a nice wing... so yes it is a import but would you call that rice? or give it respect.

and what about all the other cars in GT racing with there wings?

hey the little wing on my car as well as two really small pieces in front of each wheel help reduce my CD from .32 down to .28 as well as reduce lift...

these pieces looks as though they would induce drag but they reduce it as well as give less lift

This is becoming old.... I think everyone here will agree on an answer to the topic. All wings have some function. Now its up to the individual to "tune" this wing for his performance specs(high speed, low speed, whatever) As well as getting the "look" out of the spoiler that each individual loves. The stock 3rd gen, 4th gen type, or the high-rise, triple-decker bi-planes that are more commonly found on uncle bens 4-banger but still hold some function on third gens

This is just my $.02(quote this)

Let the flames begin:lala: :lala: :lala:

hehehehehehehe

You want big wings,these are big and functional ( at high speeds ).

...........

our cars ARENT gt racing cars though

No one here is against wings. We're just against too much wing. The rake on those aftermarkets is just way too much. Plus most wings should have an airfoil design where the bottom is longer than the top (read: curved on bottom flat on top). Check out some of the stock bodied NMCA cars. You'll see some functional wings there and you bet your *** they don't make too much drag either.

Well that road runer is just an example.

Someone said our cars arent GT cars, but you can make one of it if you want. (I want for example) Not everybody in the world is interested in a street driven drag race car (Im not) for example I want to make my car turn at 1+g more than I want a 10 sec car that cant turn).

you can reduce drag or increment it depending of wat stuff you add to it.

Yes If the botton of the wing is larger than the upper part it will make more downforce with less drag, but is really much more expensive, so wat you do is using a curve so the air push against it and make it go down, is really easy put your hand outside the window at 60mph or more, if you put it horizontal to the flor it will make some drag the more you incline it the more drag and the more downforce. If its curved less drag and equal downforce, If is an inverted wing it will generate the most downforce with the less drag.

About that Road Runner....who told you that was functional at any speed????? It looks to be above the roof!

So? Whats your point???

The Higher you put a wing (Above the roof) the more efficient it becomes, cause the air is less turbulent, and is not affected as much as air that is bellow the roff.

Also the nose of that car is also act as a wing and creates downforce, and it dont need to be so high speed either.

That car was so advanced that nascar ruled out after some years the wings (They have now deflector or spoilers in the rear)

I know my car isn't a GT Car. But GT racing is the closest thing I can think of that relates to the types of racing I like to do. I'd say the next best thing would be the actual IROC. I'm all about the turns (grip and drift), and with a F/I ls1 setup pushing over 600 hp/tq (my end goal), the possibility of taking turns at very high speeds is there. So why is it wrong for someone to set their car up to take turns @ very high speeds?

read the whole post next time


not saying your car is a GT racing car

but rather those big wings are not just rice boy related


read boy read

Just for the record, the smallest engine is a 2liter 8valve unit, and has 115hp. And the Turbo version has no wing whatsoever!

Si

On the 91 L98 Z28 I used to own, at 140mph the rear was crushed to the ground by the stock rear wing. It was very noticeable.
However, notice how there has not been a stock wing/spoiler on a Vette in how long?

Well...I don't know how effective spoliers are at making drivability improve on our cars BUT, I do know they are effective as far as looks go. I think they look great and help to give a finished look in my opinion.

Have to say I'm not a big fan of the 'erector set' spoilers (actually that's a great name for them).

I love the spolier on my convertable...I think its great looker.

This post is pretty much pointless by the way, other than to just speak my mind.

Hello, I did not remember that the calibra did come with that engine, but must be true. (I will search my old magazines)

My point with the calibra is not about wings is about aerodinamics.

Aerodinamics is as important as a high Hp engine. (for top speed) and There is no Wing in the calibra becuse its not needed as the car was designeed taking in acount this engine, if you llok at any seriour German tuner that worked on the calibra you will se wings (the drag is aumented but you have more hp and higher top speed) also the GT touring car had pretty serious spoilers and wings (One of the most spectacular aero packages I ever saw)

My point is that to increase passing speed in a curve at some point you will need wings to increase the load on the tires and mantain traction.