..............

 

This topic has came up before several times actually.

Downforce is good, and there was a good downforce discussion in a thread about REVLIMIT's wing a few weeks ago. The thing is though, the greater majority of us never actually hit a high enough speed where a wing creating downforce will be doing us any good. I know the SC/RS has a speed limiter that kicks in about 110, and thats still not fast enough to have a large wing benefit your areodymanics a whole lot as far as I know. My car, 100% stock, felt very stable at that speed as thats with my 100% non-functional aero wing.

The only spoiler ever offered from the factory on our cars that even has any debatable areodynamic value is the T/A wing.

Just for the record, I'm not bashing you're wing, just in case it came across that way. Its your car do whatever the heck you want. I'm trying to make an intelligent response not start any wars.

 

dude,

whered you get that wing?? im looking for a new one(maybe revs wing) or an iroc spoiler..umm the one that looks like yours but have 3 arms connecting to the hatch) or maybe yours...depends on my mood when i go to get a spoiler...just a website would be good..

thanks

iroc2nv

 

Right, also 99.9% of aftermarket wings are not designed to create downforce, just to look good. How well (or even if) they create usable downforce is questionable. A race team will spend hundreds of hours at the track and on a computer to get it right, and may even have to adjust the wing during a race. The odds of getting enough positive downforce to overcome the large amount of negative wind resistance from a random aftermarket wing is slim.

 

Sorry but most of the aftermarket wings the 'ricers' buy that you guys tease and call 'rice' and 'shopping cart' ARE adjustable (some more than just 1 way) and when set properly they can produce a sufficient ammount of downforce. Of course not everyone has access to a track or a windtunnel to test so for most applications they aren't set up properly. And unlike your common Camaro race from a stop to 60 or 80 mph, sport compacts shine at highway speeds ... so the common sport compact race would start @ 60 and end around 140/150mph. At those speeds the wings do make a difference.

 

And unlike your common Camaro race from a stop to 60 or 80 mph, sport compacts shine at highway speeds ... so the common sport compact race would start @ 60 and end around 140/150mph

Why do people keep thinking that 4 cylinder economy cars are able to go this fast?

Only a small fraction of the "rice" cars can do this, and they typically cost more than a new Firehawk or camaro SS.

 

The old Camaro brochure says the 3 part spoiler creates 12.6 lbs of downforce at 55 mph

 

I keep thinking this because I see it almost every day. Of course economy 'rice' cars can't do this... I'm talking about properly tuned sport compacts. Maybe there aren't that many in your area but we have alot of them here in Hawaii.

Rice = some fool with a stock civic EX motor and boltons thinking he runs 12's.

Tuned = civic with Integra GSR motor swap turbocharged @ 12 psi that does run 12's.

There IS a difference....

But anyway, to get back on topic, there are a few companies that make aftermarket wings (aluminum wings) that are adjustable and can aid at high speeds. Lots of the stupid non adjustable ones are for the rice boys but there are good ones out there. Just look at professional GT racing in europe .... they run the same exact aluminum wings you can buy in '*****' mags but they have the advantage of being able to spend the time on the track tuning the wing for the best aerodynamics (downforce). And those guys make laps with average speeds above 100 mph!!!

 

Just some misc info I found ..

Lift:

Lift is the effect of the air traveling under the body, and pushing it upwards. As speed is increased, the lift force increases and the car becomes unstable. In order to counteract this problem, modern race cars are designed to produce negative lift. The typical family sedan has a lift coefficiency of about 0.3, while a race car has a lift of about -3.00. One can easily see the significant amount of downforce that a race car can produce.

There are a variety of methods used to reduce lift and ultimately produce downforce. These devices range from spoilers to ground effects.

Most modern race cars are equipped with wings. Located on the nose and rear of the race car, wings produce the downforce to stick a car to the race track. Wings are adjustable to affect the traction and balance of a car. The goal is to press the car downward toward the ground, for better grip and cornering. The faster a car goes, the more downforce it develops. and the more it is pressed into the ground.

And here's some info from the Mustang Guys on wings and downforce
here.

 

Like they said, there is SOME function there, just not a huge amount and we rarely use it. I remember in another post, iroc2nv said his wing helped him greatly on his launches. A wing isn't gonna do anything on a launch.

Heres something you might find useful:

http://www.kugelkomponents.com/bonneville99.html

This car went over 300 MPH. Notice his wing choice? That's right, a stock wraparound spoiler.

No need for a huge wing here, and it obviously got the job done.

 

....my spoiler/wing. Ever since I was a kid I always wanted a car with a wing/spoiler. When I 1st saw both the 60's/70's/80's 3rd gens and the Corvettes I fell in love and the spoiler/wing was a part of that love affair. I don't know or care about downforce or whatever. It just looks COOL as HELL on our cars. In fact no Camaro or Firebird should be without one. Now those big ***** one, well they are not my cup of tea but to each their own. I prefer what we have on all generation F Bodies. They make even slow 3rd gens look fast. And if there is a hair of performance to boot well I'll take that too.

 

wow that was a cool article!!

 

On a serious note APR wings (what I have on my car) is atcually made for performance also. They got the designs taht alot of atcual real race wings have and incorperated them into their products. My wing is very adjustible with alot of points to do so. My car is yes an RS camaro. But I do not have a speedlimiter and can bring my car up to 150+mph (and yes I have before) at such speeds my wing is very much functional. The stability over 125mph is much improved. So just wanted to say my wing is a real functional wing. Try not to flame this thread please. Lets keep it civil. Thank you...

And like Shawn aka Crazy Hawaiian mentioned. Alot of Alluminum wings are atcually kinda fake. I admit taht. Just made for looks only. But APR is a company that atcually has FUCNTIONAL wings. Their not fake cheap wings like some. But high quality wings based off real race car wings.

 

..........

 

Ok you guys are seriously starting to crack me up.

First, that 300 mph car was setting the record for "stock body" and had about 3000 lbs of dead weight in the car. That's the only reason he didn't get airborn.

At 55 mph the camaro spoiler might make 12.5 lbs of down force, but the body is probably making 10 times that in lift.

What the hell are you guys doing that you need to make down force at 150 mph. You're going to end up a grease spot on a tree.

FWD cars need downforce just like every other car to keep the wheels planted in a corner. Although not as much since they are propelling the car with the front wheels. So it's funny that they all have the biggest wings.

No car wing mounted on the rear is ever going to make enough downforce to lift the front. That's just hilarious.

 

................

 

........

.

 

________________________________________________

And unlike your common Camaro race from a stop to 60 or 80 mph, sport compacts shine at highway speeds ... so the common sport compact race would start @ 60 and end around 140/150mph. At those speeds the wings do make a difference
________________________________________________

Racin that fast unless its at a track is kinda nuts IMO but i'm sure its quite a rush. Suicide with the roads the way they are around here. Around a bigger city I could see it though, you get on the 6 lane late at night you've got all kindsa space and halfway smooth road. But the point I was originally trying to make was that most people who have even race designed wings never actually go fast enough to truly use/need them. Not all, but most. I know you do though Crazy *** Hawaiians

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rice = some fool with a stock civic EX motor and boltons thinking he runs 12's.

Tuned = civic with Integra GSR motor swap turbocharged @ 12 psi that does run 12's.

There IS a difference....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Damn straight. We've got a little of both around here. I got to hear the funniest thing this weekend... 5 or 6 guys rolled up at a cruise spot in Civics/Integras but they were actually pretty nice. They had body kits and racin seats and stuff, but they had some $$ under the hood too and none of them looked stupid, all tasteful. Most of them run 13s and have slips to prove it. And they were all hardcore rice-bashin on this guy with a baby blue 4 door accord who was out there... with a crappy unpainted body kit, neons, hubcaps, BMW air vent thingys, white interior, the whole 9 yards. See even import guys don't like ricers, they make the legit guys look bad.

 

id rather crash my car at 150+mph then have a wing like that on the back

 

I don't see why you need a wing that is "functional" over 125 mph when the speed limit is half that. Waste of money and looks stupid imho.

 

pppfffttttt like you even have the ***** or hardware to go that fast.

 

No flames here but...

With everyone throwing around 150 mph like its nothing I decided to dig out an old issue of Car and Driver...

April 1991, "Road Test Digest"
Car (91 model) - Top Speed (MPH)
Camaro Z28 - 143
Vette Z51 - 148
Mustang LX 5.0 (90) - 141
Lotus Esprit Turbo - 157
Porsche Carrera 2 - 161

Seeing how the Z28 couldn't even reach 150 brand new, I seriously doubt (with out some major mods) that any 10+ year old RSs are cruising around town at 150+

 

I dont have SERIOUS mods but I can (and have) taken out slightly modifed 91-92 Z28s on the street and the freeway. Just thought I'd mention that.

 

is that wing actually higher then the roof of the car?

 

nah its just the way the picture looks. Its not higher then the roof.

 

So what mods do you have?

 

..............

 

they may be functional, but practically you're not going to see that functionality often, if ever.. so it seems to me like you're just trying to justify having one on the back of your car... why? people might not like it, and thats too bad.. its your car. dont try to please everybody else, just do what you want.

 

That wing is total overkill, and in my opinion ugly as sin. A smaller, body matched piece would look better, but its your car, do what you want.

On a more technical note, i have no spoiler or wing at all, though i do have a very slight rake on my deck lid. My car has no stability problems at 140+mph. It feels just as stable from 55 up to its top speed. Infact the air pressure and rake of the car, causes it to tuck down at speed.

Now if i was going to turn at triple digit speeds, I may consider a smaller wing, after i invested in some sticky 315's for the rear. In the case of this RS, i think money would of been much better spent elsewhere.

btw flynlow, i like your wing, very tasteful.

 

CrazyHawaiian and Revlimit that I just read about in Honolulu, Hawaii. This guy is doing so new kind of racing called "Drifting". Sort of like surfing on a track for points. Something they thought up in Japan and now it's coming this way. It's in this months Car and Driver and the guy is from Hawaii in a white RS. I saw your "One drift at a time" statement with the white RS pic and just wondered. Probably not you since you guys are going 150 plus and he's going 70 sideways, but I had to ask.

 

Yup thats us. Revlimit in the white and me in the maroon in front of him. We have another session this weekend (July 13). Its going to be alot more than drifting though, its the 808 Xspeedition .. also gonna have sportbikes out there doing tricks @ the end of the 1/4 stretch, models and all kindsa stuff. I rented us a 'Drifters Tent' so we can cruze in the shade between runs. I'll try to get someone to record some footage so we can show you guys all the fun we have.

On another note, that snipplet I posted above about Lift was from the APR website (same wing Revlimit runs) and yes it is adjustable and functional. Like he mentioned at high speeds it feels alot more stable (taking turns etc). And just to let you know he usually dosnt run the wing when he drifts (for all the people who are wondering AHEM mark shields).

For me personally I prefer the stock RS wing witch is mostly an extension of the hatch.

 

"APR wing is functional"

umm ok , first of all , was it designed for a 3rd gen camaro ? I doubt it

do you have any #'s other than how much $$$ you wasted on it or how it "felt" (which really doesn't mean ****) at high speeds ?

all I'm saying is that nobody has any real #'s to prove that it really works. does it help some ? I'm sure it does , but a whole lot less than a bigger stock-like 3piece rs spoiler would. (like one that some 2nd gens had).

it' a dumb *** design , and until you can show us numbers that prove that it really works WELL people will call you a *****/dumbass and will generally think you're full of ****

just like with anything else , if you want to prove something works , post something that actually PROVES IT ! and no , copied & pasted paragraph from some website does not count

oh and revlimit , unless I missed it , please post your "mod" list I would really like to know what you've done to run 150mph like it's nothing , oh and please include what tires you're running too

 

Okay, let's pretend that all those erector sets on the back of these cars are put there for added downforce and not because they like how they look. My question is this; is the hatch the best attach point for a device that's designed to add stability to the whole car. Think about it, the hatch is attached to the car with two hinges and a latch, with a soft weatherstrip in between. It doesn't sound like much of the downforce/stability is transferred to the body. It would be like installing massive anti-sway bars but using marshmallow soft bushings rather than urethane ones.

Why not just say it's there because you like how it looks, and if you don't like it, lump it?

 

and all this time i had you going for somebody that had the attitude the bigger the wing the better

 

Ummm actually the aluminum wings I'm talking about are universal so they are made for all cars. And no I dont have any real world numbers to prove they work. I dont even run one myself. I do know that people who do run them report that there is alot more stability taking turns at high speeds. If thats not good enough for you then dont get one. But just remember that in GT Racing (where even yes the Chevy Corvette C5R races with its own huge aluminuim wing) they use the same style wing with almost the same adjustment points. Are you telling me everyone who races GT just puts those wings because they just think they feel better? Its common sense to me that they runs wings like that because they are functional. Like I said above those guys have the advantage of a full track and windtunnel to tune/test on ... So maybe we dont have access to a full track or a wind tunnel to tune the wing adjustments for the best downforce with least resistance or record the 'real world' downforce numbers for you, guess we'll never PROVE it to you, but thats ok because I dont care if you run a wing or not. Look @ Lemans racing, different wing but same idea. I dont have any real world numbers about those wings either, so I guess I cant prove they work ... they must 'feel better' so thats why they use them.

And Rev never said he runs 150 mph 'like its nothing' pls stop putting words in his mouth kthks

 

GET OUTA THE FU*KIN WAY!!

 

NOW KISS MY A$$!!

 

OK guys,
Here's some input from someone with real track experience with spoilers on roadrace cars.

Spoilers aren't functional at low speeds:
This is incorrect. A properly designed spoiler can function at lower (below 80 mph) speeds. However, it has to be a big, aggressive spoiler (aggressive meaning at a steep angle). At any higher speeds, this will cause so much drag that it will kill the cars accelleration, speed and MPG.

Spoilers on imports are stupid:
Sorry. On front wheel drive cars, this is correct. The whole concept of a spoiler is downforce, not stability. Instability is from air under the car. The spoiler on the rear is to keep wheelspin to a minimum. Putting a big spoiler on a front drive car is like wearing a neon sign saying "I'm clueless"

The guy with the giant F1 spoiler taller than his roof actually appears to have a very functional piece. It is up in the clean air, adjustable, and looks like a decent design. However, I don't need to make any comments on the aesthetics, or if he had high-speed traction problems to begin with. It might be more stable, since keeping the air out from under a street car is not as practical as a race car. I will say yes, he is fully functional.

Spoilers are always a compromise or balancing act between downforce and drag. They must be tuned for every track condition, so as to create the most useful balance between the two. They are also very dependant on shape, length and angle to the wind, as well as the shape of the airflow over the car that they are mounted to. Do they function on street cars? Which wing, at what angle, on what car, and did it have traction problems to start with. If your car is unstable, keeping airflow out from under it will do more than a spoiler, and work on your shock/spring/sway bar tuning.

The Mercedes that "flew" got air under the car from getting the nose light over a rise, the spoiler didn't push the front up.

 

What TA said.

Plus I'll add about the Mercedes going airborne. Those cars have a flat undertray that when it does get any lift the car bottom acts like a sail. We've had the same thing happen in the last few years at Road Atlanta with a GT car flipping at a little rise. Same place I think that Mark Donahue did it in a Can-Am car.

It's getting hard to remember that far back. LOL

 

if u notice all the gt cars and the vette c5r, that they have the big wings is becuz they go above 150 and above 170 mph. and need that downforce. a stock rs or any camaro doesn need a hugh wing to help it. just get some stick tires and use the stock spoiler becuz enless u can find a nice and perfect level road to cruze down at 150 mph and not hit a bump and fly off then get the wing but if not it seems like u wasted what 300 bucks for a wing that serves no perpose.

and even cruzing down the highway at 85 mph with my stock 3 piece spoiler the car is stable.

 

70mph SIDEWAYS? Is the spoiler mounted down the center of the car facing sideways?
Rob

 

hahahha!!! now that I would have to see!! lol!

 

I think there are people that missunterstand a lot about aerodinamics and what it does to a car at different speeds.

I had seen in all kind of exagerated and very stupids setups here in my country and I too hate the look of *****'s cars.

If you are going in a straight line you dont need huge wings you only need to compensate the aerodinamic lift of your car.

I fact the I can not understand is that everybody talks about how much drag a big wing makes but they dont mention the parachite effect we have in our cars yes just bellow our rear bumper we have a parachute always open, just look carefully bellow the car, the air that pass by our front spoiler end hitting the rear plastic bellow the bumper.

It is very important to maintain a balanced weight in all weels going fast in a straight, If you wanna go fast without increasing your HP (Im talking about top speed) you need to decrease your drag coeficient, if you wanna take corners at hight speed you need front and rear spoilers to make a weight that dont add to centrifugal forces that the weight of your car make.

The RS spoiler is more like something to smoth the air to decrease its drag coeficient.

Normaly you need an spoiler highger than you roof to make great downforce as that air is much more clean that one that have touched the roof, if you want to put it bellow the roof and still make a great downforce you need a wing tunnel to tune its size, shape and possition.

Just to let you know an example an Opel Calibra Turbo with just 200hp can get to 155mph top speed it have the lowest drag coeficient of any mass produced car. With the smallest engine (4 cyl 2litters 16valves FWD 150hp) it can get to almost 125mph. Just note that in this car you need 50 more hp to go 20mph more the higher the drag you will need much more horses to increase that 20miles per hour top speed. (the drag of this car is 0.26)

The best thing we could do to our cars is to clean the lines bellow the car then think about the upper part.

 

Are we starting to talk about "belly pans" here?

 

the first camaro i ever had i bought for $700. i was staioned in kaneohe bay, hawaii. this car was off white (originally white, but the rust made it "off white"). it was a 305 berlinetta with a computer controlled quadrajet. i knew NOTHING about fixing this car. anyways, it came with a 3rd gen firebird wing on it... not the stock camaro wing. the wing was easily removable, just lift it off.... no bolt, no nothing... it may have just been me, but i noticed when i would drive WITHOUT the wing, it would excelerate faster. so i think, even at low speeds, the wings are effective... at least a little...

jon

 

I think that you are really asking to be bashed. Most people on this board are hard core muscle car fanatics. When you attach import-like aftermarket parts onto your 3rd gen you offend many people. I think that everyone here can agree that your spoiler does have function.....so does a fart pipe, but is it worth it?????

If you are really that tired of being flamed,bashed, and generally ridiculed I would suggest that you stop advertising the look of your car...I mean, whats the deal with the rear end shot on your sig???? If not so that everyone here can see it?????

You ask for all that you get.

 

I just wanted to say that when I was running without any spoiler, my car felt the same at 140mph.
I did put the 91-92 Hi-Rise on my car, but wasn't able to drive the car to speed with it since the motor was on it's way out.

I have decided to put the 85-90 wrap-around whale tail spoiler on my car. I am swapping hatches with my friends girlfriends 87 Formula. If it wasn't raining, I'd have it on and take some pics.

Hereare 2 pics without the wing,

 

Almost all high performance cars has then they reduce drag a lot and they can even induce some downforce if designed properly (not an easy thing to do)

Also if you remove the rear spoiler on a car i recomend to look at more than stability you should see a higher fuel consumtion, as I told before almost all small rear spoilers are designed to smoth the air path, to decrease turbulence in the rear of the car, the more turbulence the more drag you have.

Yes I belive there are a lot of persons in this site that only care about 1/4 mile drag races, but im not one of them, I really like the feel of my engine (even if it is just an stock 305 tbi) compared to any small compact european or japanese. But I would never put an anchor in the front of my car (like an iron big block) I would preffer a big small block or even better an alluminium small block (383 or 400 ci), I really belive in hp per lbs, high corenering capabilitys, very good brakes, etc. From what I had heard I think a thirdgen could out accelerate a lot of porsches and ferraris but Im looking to outbrake and outhandle then as well.

And If someone Dont like how a high aluminium spoiler look on a third gen I think that is theyr problem, If the owner like it and he is proud of it why not show it?

Would you think it would be nice to make fun of the hundred of pounds an owner add when changin to a big block? Or the fact that a Ferrari can do most of the things a camaro do with half the engine? Is just different tastes, different kind of drivings, and different budgets thats all.

If I have a ton of money I would build a thirdgen cappable to be with the best cars out there because I like the lines of this car and I dont want to look like I had the money to purchase a Ferrari.

 

I still think Manny's car looks best without any spoiler. Everybody that wants to be "different" winds up looking the same. Manny's car actually looks unique.

But anyway... maybe the spoiler does add downforce, maybe it doesn't. I consider it a moot point, because even if it does add downforce, it's not going to be enough to offset the amount of drag that it creates, and if it provides enough to actually be useful, it's going to cave in the hatch panel that it's mounted to.

I'd be willing to bet that reinforcing the lower valance that directs air into the radiator, along with reinforcing the front lower spoiler on the nose would be 10x more beneficial in terms of high speed handling. One of the best things you can do for high speed stability is keep the air from going under the car. If you stop the air from going under the car, it creates a vacuum and pulls the car down. I've read a lot of articles on road racing (not parking lot crap, high speed long distance road courses) and what I heard over and over was that using the lowest chin possible provided the most benefit. Very few of those racers had big honking spoilers on their trunks, but they all had a lower valance that was practically rubbing the ground.

Another interresting tidbit is that on the Lamborghini Diablo, they found that the cars without the wing had a top speed about 5-8mph higher than one with the wing. Lamborghini even openly admits that the spoiler offers absolutely no functionality and is there just for looks.

 

Just try to take a curv at 120mph with and without a rear spoiler, as I told before you dont need huge downforce to go straight you just need to keep the load on the tires balanced to maintain the minimun stability and not bounce around the track.

The majority of spoilers on european cars (you know some manufacturers even carry their cars to wind tunnels and all that crap) start working at low speeds (70mph) have you seen at what speed a porsche rear spoiler exit?

On the rally cars having no spoiler are you joking? they are the cars the ricers want to emulate, the for escort cosworth, big spoiler, the sierra cosworth GT, big spoiler, the lancer evo, big spoiler. the 360 modena dont have a big spoiler becouse the under belly pan makes a hugue downforce, is like a really big inverted wing it makes more downforce that an F40 and F50, that makes the car handle really weel in high speed curves.

One of the advantages of wings is that you can change or balance the grip of your car at high speeds, for examply if you know how much weight difference your car have beetwen the front and the rear you can make you big spoiler push your car several pounds to make up for that difference without adding any weight to the back of your car.

The very little sopiler on the back of the Lambo Diablo is for looks and adds very little drag , but if you look carefully the rear bumper acts like a spoiler making the air that comes from bellow the car go upward as it exit the car, having in fact a rear functional spoiler.

Some people dont like how front lights cover look but you have any idea of how much drag the stock hole where the light are make?

An spoiler can make a huge difference when taking a curv at high speed even at relatively low speed, if your limit was 75 you can take it now at 90 feeling more secure than before.

And about the position, if you can sit in the hatch and the suspenssion goes down, that is the same thing an spoiler will do.