For general info. This from the above book (for what it's worth):

"1LE--Although 1987 marked the official introduction of the 350 cid
TPI engine, some '86 IROC-Zs were produced with this engine and also equipped with a five-speed manual transmission. It's not known exactly how many of these IROC-Zs were made, but they were essentially hidden from the public, because the 350 was part of the RPO 1LE package that was developed for road racing in various showroom stock classes, and was not widely advertised."

JamesC

 

How reputable is this Camaro Performance book??? Because that seems to be more of a historical type of document as opposed to a tech/spec sheet that you'd get from the General.

If it was a very limited type deal...why isnt it possible that back in the late 80's no one really knew what they had. They wouldnt know that in 2007 a bunch of f-body heads would be dying to lay their eyes on one of these. Therefore they were probably treated like a normal car...abused...wrecked...crushed...left to rot..etc etc. If there were only a handful, that would make them pretty darn hard to find.

Good call on the "key release" on the column. Ide be willing to bet that it has it...since it appears to be a factory 5spd body atleast... Judging by the floor boards.

Does Chevy have a historical society? I know pontiac does...and they can provide all sorts of info on older Pontiacs. Like for a small fee they will get you a reprint of your window sticker, and Im pretty sure they can get you an RPO or a build sheet all from your VIN number. Wasnt sure if the Camaro had something similar.

Justin

 

I have that book, as well as several other books on Thirdgens, fourthgens, and Camaros in general.

While they have a lot of good info, they're also filled with quite a few errors. Not saying that one is or isn't an error or a cold hard fact, but there are more than a few documented errors.

....unfortunately, with all due respect to the author, he's just doing his best to research his facts from an outside source. If his source is misinformed, then the book is wrong, and so goes the cycle of misinformation.

Why do you not beleive GM, or C.A.F.E., but you're quick to site a fact written by Joe Guy???

 

I'm unsure if the above comment was directed at me or not. The quote has nothing to do with my beliefs. I was simply citing info that a previous post mentioned. Personally, I find the 350/T5 concept difficult to believe...but then note my sig .

JamesC

 

And if it was directed towards me... I agree... the info in those kind of books can be wrong. But GM also doesnt exactly disclose all the facts about cars. They do it all the time when they underrate power outputs. And back in the day then underated them even more.

Haha Im by no means an expert on the history of the thirdgen. So each and every one of you that says these cars dont exist could very well be correct. Im more interested in finding out one way or another about this particular car..because its the closest one Ive seen in awhile that makes the myth true. ITS FUN! Lots of threads about "Is it a real WS6, or is it a real GTA"...those are dime a dozen. This read is MUCH more entertaining!

That article in that book just fuels the excitment and makes me more interested in knowing whats up with his car. Chances are its just a motor/vin swap. But we'll see. I talked to him via PM and I have a couple of buddies that work at a couple different dealerships. So Im talking with them just to see what they can dig up. You can get a lot of info from the dealership if the person is willing to put time into helping you. So we'll see what turns up. Ide like to get him a copy of the RPO or the build sheet. That'd be cool.

Justin

 

Now....

Is it POSSIBLE that this was one of the prototype/test cars, that GM DID build for testing a 350/T5 combo, but never released to the public? And it never made it to the crushher, like it was suposed to?

If so, would the VIN show the V8, and a build sheet show the T5 correctly?

Would GM have run it down the production line as a 305/T5 car, but gotten a 350 put in instead...on the assembly line, despite the SPID sheet? Therefore the documentation showing it as a 305? Therefore, we'd never PROVE it was factory modified.

Or just pulled a finished car as a test mule, and put a 350 in?

Or were test mules sans VIN numers? Frankie over at GTASourcePage.com has been in contact with Lou Wassel (originator of the GTA option), so me might be able to provide info on that. After all, Lou Wassel got a GTA built in 86 (which didn't "exist", until 87, but he was an inside GM man) as a test mule.

 

If it was a top secret, limited run, hidden from the public, etc, etc, the car would still have to have the correct PROM programming to run the car..........

GM would not release the car without proper calibrations. Even the 1-LE still had a factory warranty.

I need to know the PROM code to further help this guy get his answers.

 

I believe there is one and it exists in AREA 51 along with a few spaceships.

Just like aliens & UFO's, many claim to have seen one. Some even believe they exist. Most do not.
There is a little evidence that they do exist. There is a lot of evidence that they do not exist.
Just like aliens, those that believe, will believe no matter what. Most of us are more skeptical and won't believe until one is actually captured, put on display and DNA test are done.

Thus the debate goes on & on & on . . .

 

sorry 1bad91z i kno ive been holding off on getting this but i am definatly goin to do it today, thanks alot 89ta383sc and ghettocruiser for spending your time in tying to help me!!! and once again 1bad91z i know you need this code inorder to help me also and i appreciate that youd take the time to do that ill have it for you later on today.

Thanks alot guys!

 

Check the vin on the engine and the vin on the trans to see if they match the body.That will be your ultimate proof.

 

I'm afraid not...

First thing, I've never seen a VIN # on a tranny.
Second, even if the engine VIN matches the body tags, that is no proof.

If the body pan was modified to the extent to put in an OEM manual pan, for the shifter lever, the body VIN tag would be quite simple to transplant as well.

 

Well for the 30 Years that I worked for GM I have always seen vin numbers on transmissions.

 

Thats how they identified a car we had stolen. The VIN from the trans. Yea, there is one.

 

Thats a good point about the trans... However, since the T-5s were weak to the point that they didnt put them in with the 350, there is a chance that its not right either...unless it a tag that can be swapped onto a replacement trans? Sounds like everything on that car needs to match up. Engine numbers, body numbers, and trans numbers. Or come up with an eprom number or RPO/build sheet.

If nothing else...Im learning where all the ID numbers are on my thirdgen. haha. Not that I have any of my original driveline...or interior for that matter.

Justin

 

It sounds highly doubtful to me. If it was normal production, numbers would have to match. If it was a factory experiment, it would be difficult to document without help from previous owners.

I know someone who worked at Van Nuys and had a hand in quite a few SCCA cars coming from there and did things that werent exactly kosher like adding ASC SFC's to hardtop cars in the wee hours of the night and claiming it was a production build... and that wasnt entirely inaccurate. If I get a chance to run this by him, I will. He'd know about it. He worked at that plant through the whole thirdgen era.

 

Great thread. I am curious to find out what you have as well. Put some closure to all the speculating.
Please keep us posted res1bxh3
-Andrew

 

This is really interesting. Why would someone go through all of the work in changing a floorpan/transmission tunnel just to make it look stock? It doesn't matter how professional of a job it was, you would be able to tell from the drill bit hacks around the spot welds. I've personally cut a floorpan out of a car, and by god it doesn't go in that cleanly. Maybe it's real?

 

Well think about it... No one in their right mind would go through all that work just to swap to manual... I just dont see it happening. Maybe if he found this car in a showroom and someone built it to be perfect... But in reality, someone is either going to just cut a hole for the shifter, or just replace a section of the tunnel.

The VIN swaps are possible...but then again who actually goes through that trouble? You cant visually tell the difference between a 5.7 TPI and a 5.0 TPI. So why even bother? I guess you could do it to make it numbers matching...but I just find it hard to believe someone would go through all that. To change that VIN on the dash you'd need to remove the windshield before even messing with it correct? Or is it attached to the dash and could be swaped with just a dash swap... Because if you had to remove the glass, that alone would deter me from messing with it.

Again, if this was going to be a super nice show car...then maybe I could see. But from the sounds of things its not a "show" car and probably never was...(cage installed)...

Justin

 

Here are some things to think about. People say that the t5 trans is weak. I work at a Chevy dealer and have talked to other techs that I work with about the t5 trans. The only difference between most of them is the 10, 14, and 26 spline. The 14 spline is the one that came in the non v8 cars, and trucks. I have taken a 10 spline truck trans and changed the input shaft and put it in a third gen. So there really isn't a big difference beside gear ratios. I also see people say they have problems gitting into gears. Then I get into the car and have no problem with it at all. How many of you guys know prople that always have trans problems with a stock car and you or someone else have the same car and never have the same issue. Here is an example for the people that watch PINKS. Look at the episode with the guy that had the ford ranger. The owener could not hit second gear, and someone on his team never missed a gear. I don't think the trans is the issue.

This is the only thing that makes any sents to me. At that time the vette and third gens had the same engine just a few hp different.( I think 5-10) And the price difference between the two are huge. Now think of what other cars at that time came with a 350 or close to it with a stick.(I can't think of any) So if you wanted a 350 and stick, would you buy a vette, or a camaro for whole lot less, cheaper to insure, and be as fast. Only thing that I could think of is GM was scared that it would take sales away for the vette. So that is way it was offered only as a 1le that had to be ordered. Way would someone order a car with no a/c and radio and drive it all the time.

These are the reasons I think that there is not that many around.

 

A 350 and a manual tranny were not available as a 1le.. im confused... And it's not that there isn't many around.. it's that there arn't any around according to all GM documentation...

 

89ta383sc: Im not sure I totally follow your post...but Im gonna respond to it and cross my fingers...haha. You compared the f-body and the vette... Am I wrong in saying that the vette (C4 if you want to compare it to the thirdgen) had a 6spd manual transmission? A version of the T56? Im not a vette guy so I dont know much of their history. But the TPI manual vettes were 6spd as far as I know. Apples to oranges basically.

And I have personaly seen T-5's give up the ghost under moderate abuse...as well as the replacement trans after a few months. Im not saying the guy was being easy on it...but it was definetly the weak point in his driveline. And considering the rear is a 10-bolt which is generally considered to be weak, thats not saying alot for the T-5. As for the pinks episode..I think that was the difference between the pressure of racing, and a guy taking a spin down the track in his newly aquired truck...no pressure to nail the shift. I know if I THINK about hitting 3rd in my TA, sometimes Ill botch the shift. But if Im relaxed and just do it...goes in like butter.

Stripper cars are ordered to race in my opinion. If you live in cooler climates, why get A/C and add cost and weight? If you never listen to music...why pay for a sound system? I dont know how popular stripper cars are...but Ive seen quite a few. Not just thirdgens...not just f-bodies either.

Just because GM doesnt have them documented doesnt mean there arent some factory freaks roaming around. Ford does it... Chrysler does it... Anyone that works for a dealership can usually pull strings and get a car put together alittle different. I just find it hard to believe that anyone would go through all the trouble of swapping VINs and tags and stickers, just to swap a 305TPI over to a 350TPI. When no average person...or most mechanics can even tell the difference.

Hope res1bxh3 gets the rest of the info for us soon....Im really anxious to figure this out.

Justin

 

I'm just wondering what it will take to convince the masses, that this is, somehow, a factory freak!

I guess it would result in editing of https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/history-restoration/233781-did-350-tpi-l98.html
----------
I'm just wondering what it will take to convince the masses, that this is, somehow, a factory freak!

I guess it would result in editing of this Sticky.

 

I notice how everyone keeps mentioning swaping the VIN and stickers with the VIN on it. Those stickers are impossible to swap from car to car. When you try to peel one up it seperates into two parts and will leave the word VOID on both the car and the sticker. That right there pretty much shows the body of the car to be a factory 350 body, I think. Correct me if im mistaken.
Matt

 

Kinda like...Our Texas inspection stickers can't be transferred, from one car, to a different car, without ripping apart.

Well, TX is wrong! I had to replace a windshield years ago, and it was simply a matter of patience to transfer the sticker to the new windshield. It was that, or pay to have it re-inspected, just because of the windshield being replaced.

 

Well I kno for a fact they cant be transfered. Ive tried everything to remove these and there is no possible way. Some cars even leave behind a mark of a different color that can only be removed my sanding it out. Hondas for instance do this, they leave behind a dark purple color after the sticker seperates, when you use thinner to which away the void your left with a purple mark.
Matt

 

The T5 trans is in fact not strong enough. The case flexes and gears pull away from each other. The cause the tips of the gears to handle more of the stress rather than the whole tooth. ....that being said, I've seen several handle a lot, and I'm planning to swap one too for some hands on research!

And this whole thread revolves around your/our/my perception on what makes a car official, or "rare". There's no doubt that there are 350-T5 cars. Heck I'll have one soon I hope!!! ...but it's different if it was swapped in. We all agree of course. Tell me this, and I'm not giving an opinion, only asking for yours. What if ONE GM exec, did pull a bunch of strings, and find some way to get an actual numbers matching car with a 350-T5. Does that mean it exists? Like I said, where's the difference? Where's the line between, official? -or "production"??? ...and ultimately, it's a vicious circle of argument. Because if GM says they didn't make it, and CAFE documents can [I]legally prove[I] they didn't exist, well, even if they DID make, say 53 of 'em between 86 and 88, "officially" they're not recognized. Officially they're not "real". .....so what then? Some would say it was a professional chop shop job that just faked it, vin# and all. How could you disprove it? Just look at area 51. We all know it doesn't exist, BUT we all know it does. Legally it's not there. So if it were a car, all the photos in the world, and you still wouldn't "offically" have one. Kinda like this whole thing.

...and also, I think it would be SWEET if we PROVED one of these cars to exist. I just still think there are a hundred "unlikely" reasons for this one car, that are STILL more likely than a GM factory freak going against all documentation and CAFE drivetrain approvals.

I'll keep watching

 

All I can say then is...

You know your "facts" wrong, because I've done it.

When I get a chance, I'll go out to my parts car, take pics of before and after, and do it again. The only thing is, it's easier if you're not trying to save the windshield, and you have PLENTY of time to do it. Mine was busted anyways, so I had no reason to be careful and save the glass, whhen I transferred the sticker.

 

Were talkin about two different things tho. An inspection sticker is differnt than a Vin sticker. If you can show photgraphic proof of you removing a factory VIN sticker then ill believe it. But Ive tried many times on many different makes and never had good luck. Lets see the pictures.
Matt

 

I agree the sticker could be removed and transplanted. But its difficult. Again...Im not sure why someone would go through the trouble. The VINs say the car had a 350. The floor was obviously not tampered with... So we just need some info to try to nail it down for sure.

Abubaca: I like what you said in your second paragraph. I dont know how many cars have to be made before being considered "production or factory". However, if it was even possible to get a car built with the 350/t5 combo...Ide consider that to be "factory". If the car came off the line with a 305/t5, then someone put a 350 in it...now its a modified car. In order for this car to be significant in my eyes...it has to have been made a 350/t5 car. I would really like to see the VINs all match, and he can prove that its the original motor. Ide also like to see my buddy or someone else turn up some info on the RPO or build sheet. If he comes up with a reprint RPO sticker or build sheet and it confirms that the car was infact built with this set up...as well as all of the delete parts, and maybe even the roll bar...then I would suggest he restore it to as close to factory as possible because he'd have a pretty darn rare 3rd gen.

I just think at this point it will be awesome to find out that it came from GM this way. Not swapped around after being built...but rolled off the line with this engine/trans combo. Just for coolness factor if nothing else.

Justin

P.S...I like the way this thread has stayed civil and there is some good discussion going on. I hope it stays this way. Even if it does turn out to be a dead end...it was fun. Most Ive been excited about auto research in awhile...

 

It takes less than 5 minutes to pull down the ECM and remove the service cover.

If you want an answer, simply get me the 4 digit PROM code.

 

haha dang sorry 1bad91z, good news is i have it!! now i think it might not be original because when i pulled it down the cover says ECU-REMAN ?? ill get pictures later but here it is "DELCO ANPJ 6423" haha also howcome u didnt tell me earlyer it was so easy to take out.. haha just messin man! but let me know what those codes mean because im a little excited now.
Thanks!

 

It is for this car,
Stock '88 Z 305 w M5, A/C & 3.45 (fed)

 

Ok well that doesnt sound too promising... Espcially since sits got A/C delete and all. Unless there wasnt a special ECM for an A/C delete car. Guess there wouldnt be...

If its a Reman. unit...how trusting can we be in that info??

And wont a 305 ECM run a 350 if you use the 350 PROM??? Or is that what number he is giving you? Im so used to saying "PCM" and not having a PROM that Im rusty on my terminology.

Justin

 

ECM
Although there were several different ECMs used depending on what year TPI setup you have, the same ECM was used for 305 and 350 engines for a given year. The difference between the engines was the prom. In other words, the 86-89 350 TPI engines used the 1227165 ECM, and so did the 86-89 305 TPI engines. The 90-92 350 TPI F-Body engines (Camaro and Firebird) used the 1227730 ECM, and so did the 90-92 305 TPI engines. The 1985 305 TPI engines used 1226870 ECM, which is the same as the 1985 350 TPI ECM (350 was only available on the Corvette in 1985).

The Corvette used the 1227727 ECM on the 90-91 350 TPI engines. Although the Corvette was never available with a 305, the 1227727 ECM can be used on a 305 if desired.

PROM
This is probably the most important change that needs to be made. Regardless of what ECM you are using, the 305 prom is setup very differently from a 350 prom. Which prom you need will depend on what ECM you use, transmission type, engine size, and a few other details. Contact us if you need help finding the correct PROM for your application.

If you have a 90-92 ECM, and you are having your PROM reprogrammed, you must start with a PROM that was originally for a 350. The 90-92 PROMs have the ESC circuitry onboard, and that cannot be changed.

The 85-89 PROMs can be changed from one engine size to another without worrying about ESC within the PROM, since the module is external on those years.

 

Ahhh...Just saw the post above regarding your Prom for a 305...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

I found this... Prom codes

Now, weren't 4 speed manuals discontinued, replaced by T5/T56s by '88? That chart shows 350 with manual transmissions, but 4 speed manuals.

 

A thought...

If the ECM is a remanufatured unit...Isn't it possible, that at some point, the ECM failed, and had to be replaced, but a 350/T5 ECM couldn't be found?

I'm just digging for possibilities, as to why a 350 has a 305 prom.

Has it been determined, that the engine IN the car, is a 350? I know the VIN called for one, but has the T5 been identified as having that VIN on it?

 

man i hope this isnt the end of this because i have honestly been fascinated up to this point! one thing to note is this car is not a 88 but its a 87 so that informations wrong and another thing i have not yet removed the alternator to check the block code but i will definitely try to do that today! hmmmm ill get a picture of the ecu casing to so u guys can see the reman sticker i was talking about.

 

The Corvette was still using the 4+3.

 

Ok...so it sounds like we just need to match the block to the car now... Ive had a couple ECMs take craps on me...and Ive only owned the car for like 5 years. So it happens. It doesnt surprise me at all that it has a replacement ECM in it.

Let us know what the motor has for identification.

Justin

 

I was going to post, but Zepher beat me too it.

Your car is most likely a 305 / 5-speed car (originally).

Still get us the numbers off of the block.

Now, the other problem.
Since you may indeed have a 350 in the car, it most likely has 22 lb. injectors. Your current PROM is configured for 19 lb. injectors. Your motor needs to have the PROM programmed for your setup if indeed you have a 350 with 22 ib. injectors.

PM me, we'll talk further.

 

You are assuming is PROM hasn't been reprogrammed. I have a 305 PROM (AKFU) in my car, yet the coding on there is a mix of 305 and 350 stuff. But what it does show is that there is still no GM 350 5-speed. If it is some in the middle of the night thing then it still doesn't count. Kinda like the 87 Camaro Verts done by ASC. If it doesn't have a 3 in the VIN, it isn't factory, even though it was done by the same Company as the factory ones and besides that isn't distinguishable from a factory car.

 

The VIN # on this car is 1G1FP2182HN155257 based on the carfax and vin photos. Let's move this process along. Everyone needs to go to there local chevy dealers and try to get an RPO listing on this VIN. Right now it is truly the one way left to solve this.

I am going to my dealer here in IL to see what I can come up with.

 

I already have a couple buddies at both Chevy dealers and some Pontiac dealers checking on it. It seems that their records on "older" cars are becoming harder to access. I expect to hear from the one guy early next week...and he sounded the most positive of the bunch. But we'll see.

Justin

 

res1bxh3, you can order the factory dealer invoice for $50.00 and this document would solve all of the mystery on this car. It would be a very interesting document to see.

http://www.camaros.net/vis/vehicle_i...order_form.pdf

 

Good find on ordering the invoice... I still think he should be getting numbers off the block and the trans. Just to kind of help things along... The only thing that still has me interested is the fact that the floor boards look untouched, and the VIN numberS all show a 350. Not jsut one...but the two numbers that he found show a 350. We need the one off the trans... If that one says 350...then maybe he should fork up the dough for the proper paper work.

Justin

 

I beg to differ. Since one cannot find a 350 w/ manual tranny prom for a thirdgen, one is forced to use the 305 5-speed prom as a starting point. I suppose you could use a 350 Corvette prom, but they have an oil temp sensor that will set a code if its not there. I know because I used one. I'm currently using a 305 5-speed prom AXXD ('92 305 TPI 5-speed w/ 3.42 rear end) in my 350 TPI 6-speed car with no problems from the knock sensor, ESC circuit, or anything else. I also used this AXXD prom when I had a 350 TPI engine with a 5-speed, 22 lbs injectors, ZZ4 camshaft, and ZZ4 heads with no problems.
There is code in the 5-speed prom that is different from the automatic prom. I have tried to use an automatic prom in a manual trans car and the car will stall out at traffic lights and when decellerating, along with various other little things. I believe the problem is with the IAC programming, due to the torque converter in an automatic always putting a load on the engine while a manual trans in neutral does not.

 

Lets backup here guys! There are tons of things here that have just been passed over because you guys are arguing. Lets please focus this post on one things and the rest of you can argue over PM. The VINs match, the floor is a 5speed car, the ECM is a reman so throw that all out the window. It is an all options delete car and AM I THE ONLY ONE THAT SAW THE C4 PBR FRONT BRAKE CALIPER HE TOOK A PICTURE OF!!!!!!!! This car is an 87, it should not have any 1LE stuff on it. Engine and trans aside this car already has stuff on there that shouldnt be. We also know the car had a cage from what the owner tells us. I too do not think that 350 5speed cars were "produced" but i also am not dismissing that one was built either as a cheater for the showroom stock class, or for someone's boss, or it was a test car. We need to shut our mouths, look at the pictures and numbers, and go with this until we prove or dis-prove. this post is 2 pages longer than it should be for this topic. Someone get an RPO sheet for this thing and lets put this to bed. I have seen more than enough to pique my interest, I want to know what is going on here.

 

The PBR (1-LE) front brakes swap is an easy and common swap. Factory AC delete is also common on Northern cars. Removing the front windshield is common on roll cage installations (access to VIN tag).

So, with all the speculation, I guess we need further info like the block numbers, tranny numbers, an RPO sheet from GM, somebody provide proof of an actual factory GM .bin with TPI 350 and 5-speed programming in the same file (which I've never been able to find).

I haven't lost interest in the possibilty, but I think you know which way I'm leaning torwards.

 

....actuall, it's THREE PAGES longer than it needs to be...hehehehe

I could beleive a cheater or for the boss, etc. etc. But, you'll never prove that. I don't mean that in a argumentative way, just that it wouldn't have been documented as such.

....and even with the evidence provided so far, I can't think it's more than a "hmm, that's strange", and then move on. There's NO DOUBT, it's been modified. We all agree on that. And GM and CAFE says the combo doesn't exist, proveable or not, that IS what the official paperwork says. ....but like a bad daytime soap, after a little while, like it or not, you're stuck, and I too now want to know what the deal is.

Tell ya what: prove it, and I'll buy res1bxh3 lunch!!!!!!

 

Casting number please - this is one of the last few items to hear about.
I don't think this thread is too long, there is a lot of valuable info in here for the next owner who thinks/might/may have something similar.
-Andrew