How so? I don't agree. Other than the reman ECU shohwing, there is nothing else saying it's been modified.

Whoh says GM would have consented that thhey build what CAFE told them not do? Would they really admit it?

This could be like the convertible TTA. Did GM build one? A red one? A lack one? Yes & no, to all 3. For public sell...no. But they DID build one, of each, and only one convertible. Luckiest car guy in the world!

 

I had no issues running the auto ARAP prom when I did my T5 swap on my 88. Ran it like that for about a year since it ran fine. I am still running the ARAP, but I did put a check in the Manual box, didn't change anything.

 

two blurry vin photos and one of the floor pan There are a number of ways to get the parts # off the heads, get the parts # off the t-5, or the block. There is a reason why he hasn't done what has been suggested about a hundred times already.

It's not a factory original, it is blattenly obvious to me. Why would they ditch the rpo? The firebird steering wheel, the reman ecm (not pictured). Why remove a roll cage? Why hasn't he posted a pic of the part # on the heads, block or most import the trans.

 

Ugh...I had a huge response typed up for that last post...but after I re-reading what I typed, I realized it sounded too harsh and I DONT want to be the one to get this guy's thread closed. So for the sake of keeping it on track...I edited it. All I will say is you gotta go back and read the thread. Because many of your "questions" about his proof were answered. And there is ABSOLUETLY NO REASON to call him a troll... He has provided pics and info as requested besides the casting info. And has given us no reason to doubt his honesty as of yet. Nothing is blatantly obvious about the car...thats why we are HELPING him to figure out what exactly he has. So again...re-read the thread, and if things are so obvious to you from looking at a few "crappy" pictures, then you must have some good info to contribute.


res1bxh3: I got a call from my friend at the Pontiac dealer. He talked to a couple people and they said they might know a way to get ahold of a partial build sheet or atleast a list of what options SHOULD have been on the car. Usually it would cost a few bucks, but my buddy is saying that its a car he is "looking to buy". So they might just do it for him. Whats up with the casting numbers or tranny casting numbers? Any luck??? Pull those accessories off and get a look! Ill PM you if anyone comes through with info for ya.

Justin

 

chad oliver im sorry you feel that way because i went as far as registering with carfax to find out if there was anything messed up with the history, and to everyone else im sorry also ive been kinda busy lately but i can guaranty that monday i will have the block number and if i can get some jack stands then i will have the tranny #s also.
thanks again guys for helping me out!!

 

Alot of people have provided good facts, such as prototypes don't receive vin#. The car looks to have a black exterior from the pic but the floor pan has red over spray, there also appears to be damage to the quarter panel. Maybe it was tboned or ran over something bad along the way. There are several states that can buy a repairable wreck and keep the title clean. You can try calling your insurance company, they can run the vin through their claims system and tell you all kinds of bad things that carfax usually doesn't have access to.

You could have taken a mirror and shoved it down by the trans to get the numbers, with all that grease on it the numbers should be preserved nicely. You could pull a valve cover and get the part# off the head to confirm its a 350 head. you could have pulled the wiper motor and looked on the back ledge of the block for 5.7 or 5.0. You could drive half the car up on the curb to get under it to get the trans # or ask autozone or a neighbor for a jack.

You started this thread on the 1st and it's now the 19th going on the 20th. This is not the 1st thread you've made the rare car claim either. Please, pinch a loaf or get off the pot already.

 

It has been a while,
and to be honest, if I were in this same predicament, I would be too exited not to find out what was going on with the car (its history etc....) Never-the-less, I will repeat myself, I think there is a pile of great info in this thread, A LOT of stuff that I wasn't aware of.
-Andrew

 

see i did not know any of these and thats why i posted on here, and just for the record i would like to state that i do not believe this car exist either!!! but at the same time im trying to figure out what happened to my car and why?!? as for the color it was originally red then resprayed white, then resprayed black. and the cars not at my house its in a storage garage at my uncles house so i dont have quick access to it. Im ganna write a list of all the things u just said and find out the answer to each of those.

also anyone else that wants to post negative things, its okay to say it doesnt exist that half the fun right there but please dont tell me crap with no strong evidence just to put me down or whatever, and this is the first time ive ever posted something like this im pretty sure!! ive been a long time member but barely started posting.

Thanks everyone!!! im going to get those numbers and hopefully this can continue because it has been fun and exciting thus far!!!!!

 

I don't understand what any block/head casting numbers do for us. Even if it has a 305 in it now, its a VIN code 8 chassis, which we all know means L98. The question is why does a VIN code 8 chassis have factory T-5 provisions?


The links that need to be verified are the links between the VINs throughout the car and the chassis itself. This means look for evidence of tampering in ALL the VIN locations on this car.

Can we see more pictures of the shifter hole?. We should probably compare it SIDE BY SIDE to pictures of known factory T-5 tunnels and completely eliminate the possibility of an extremely well done conversion.

 

I agree with darkshot on the tunnel.... Spot welds are easy to drill out and replicate while putting it back together.

I still dont believe someone would swap vins just to go from a 305 to a 350...especially the VIN sticker. But...I guess in the grand scheme of things its not that hard to do.

Ide like to see a bunch of pictures. Outside of the car, underside of the car, full engine bay, full interior, full floor pan if possible... The more clear pictures the better impression we can get of the car. Let us know what you find next time you get to mess around...

 

remember posting this last year : where can i find stock options? (is it rare) https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/body...an-i-find.html
or what about the cracked rear frame rail posts?

Ok monday was a holiday, you had plenty of time to come on here twice. Your credibility is dropping fast, especially since you've been restoring this car for 2yrs and don't own a jack stands.

The block vin#will prove part of the # matching originality as will the # off the t-5.

The floor pan does have the same style tunnel that is in my manual trans car. This means nothing to me though, these cars cost alot of $ back in their prime so it would be worth it for someone to have replaced a floor pan properly for resale. 3 different repaints

Enough games for attention you have yet to have provided any solid proof. Time for this thread to go bye bye

 

Deleted at the risk of sounding like a broken record and taking things off topic...

J.

 

had to delete off topic rant

 

For the sake of the thread...PM'ed...

J.

 

wow im sorry about that i completely forgot about that post alright chad your right on that ... well if ud like i can get pictures of the rear frame rail because this is the same car and im not trying to pull one over on anybody sooo without further due...... ill be back in a few with pics and numbers

 

OK, since I'm now wanting to know too.......I have another thought that hasn't been verified

First, the longshot: Do we know for FACT that 1LE (or early versions of "race" cars before 1LE) cars didn't ALL have T5 trans tunnels??? Unlikely, I know.

....but what IS more likely: ...everyone keeps going back to the trans tunnel, and how well it was swapped. Do we know it was swapped? I've NEVER HEARD anything stating there were NO automatic cars with T5 tunnels. ...and as matter of fact, this might be the most realistic explanation for a vin/"8" number and a T5 tunnel. Even if this is NOT the case, how many thirdgens were there produced?????? ....there's gotta be automatic cars that had a factory T5 tunnel for one reason or another.

 

I tell you what Abubaca, what you just said has to be by far the most easy explanation of how a T-5 transmission was transplanted into a 350 car without any sort of hack-job or factory install.
I'm not discrediting the possibility of a factory T-5 with 350 but this would give him a really good explanation if he can match every last number except the transmission, but then we'd have to check some other cars for their tunnels for comparison.
Now it's our turn to tear our floor out a bit for him, I have a factory T-5 so I'm a no go. Let's figure out if that saint of a motor corporation (GM) has lied to us about a 350 T-5.

 

I have never heard of there being a hole in the floor for a 5spd in an auto car... There are brackets and things that get spot welded to the tunnel right where the shifter hole has to go more or less.... If Im understanding you correctly that is. Meaning the car was an auto but had the floor/tunnel for a 5spd???

As far as his pics show, and from what he says, the floor was not tampered with. Unless someone did a very good job on it. But other than the hole for the shifter...arent T-5 floor pans and auto floor pans the same? Those shifter holes are stamped out. Thats why the edges are nice and finished. It wasnt something that was cut out after the floor was installed or bolted in or something.

I was hoping he would come back today with numbers and pictures like his last post implied. Ide be more willing to believe that someone changed all the VIN numbers before I believe there is something fishy about the floor/tunnel. Just because I think it would be less work. Gotta get more numbers and pics from him..

J.

 

There's no way. The bracing/brackets that the auto shifter mount to are directly in the way of a T-5 shifter hole. With a T-5 hole in the floor, there'd be nothing to mount the automatic shifter to. Pull the console out of an automatic car and you'll see what I'm talking about.

And even if you were somehow to engineer a way to mount the auto shifter to the manual transmission hump, the shifter would still be way too far down physically to protrue correctly through the automatic console. And finally, one last point: With the auto linkage operating at such a low level, the extreme angle of the shifter cable that runs from the shifter to the transmission would create all kinds of binding problems with the shifter.

 

OK, good point. Wasn't thinking about the bracket/bracing for the auto shifter.

 

I want some answers dammit!

I say we uh, take this to the Myth Busters.

 

What happened to the pictures?

 

This idea is a little more likely that what I had in mind.

Human beings are flawed. Therefore we make mistakes. What's to say this car didn't get the wrong set of VIN #'s for a car that might have been one car ahead or behind it on the assembly line? I'm more apt to believe that someone at the Assembly Plant made a mistake with the assigned VIN and nobody caught it before it left the factory. Hell, the car may have very well been sold as being a L98 car and had the build sheet and RPO sticker to macth. This Theory also suggests there's a car that is listed as a LB9 car somewhere out there that came factory equipped with an L98, and was sold, and stickered as the wrong car. If the assumption is made that One or two people at the assembly plant didn't screw up, who along the way would double check it before it made it to the dealership?

Was 1987 before the Scannable windshield VIN was incorporated?

I dunno, the theory sounds more nuts than probably the idea that a Factory built L98/T-5 car exists.

 

Thats a good theory, never thought of it like that. However, the wondow sticker and all the info on the car would have it listed as an automatic because the L98 was never offered with the T5. So somewhere along the line someone most likely would have picked up that something was wrong. I dont believe they started using the scannable vins until 90 or 91. I kno my friends 91 has the scannable vin.
Matt

 

I'm in complete agreement with Chad.

Isn't it funny that the items that can CONCLUSIVELY prove this car to be for real are not provided. No SPID, no VIN# from the tranny and the BCC from the eprom is "standard GM" 305/5speed. It's because the people that created it removed the incriminating evidence (SPID label).

If a person wants to claim they have an true factory 350/5speed, the onus is for THEM to prove it conclusively with no holes or loose ends. The documentation must be ROCK SOLID for it ever to be considered anything other than a fake. That means RPO codes MUST be obtained and the vin# from the tranny MUST match. If none of these are provided, then it can never be claimed to be a true factory 350/5speed and is just a fake.

BTW, I know a person that does have a 1LE Players Challange race car. The eprom was a special eprom that had an unlisted BCC because the memcal was controlled and provided by the race organizers to ensure each car was identical. Had this care been a true 350/5speed car or a race car, it would have had an special BCC as well. It would not have had a standard 305/5speed eprom. I consider the use of a 305/5speed memcal as the first "strike" against this being a true factory 350/5speed F-body.

So get the RPOs and the VIN# from the tranny. But at this point, the BCC from the eprom is already indicating it's a fake.

 

But that eprom is a reman. So it seems like the stock computer died at some time and due to the fact that the 350/T5 is not avalible it was replaced with a 305/T5 one. It makes pretty good sence as these ecm's do tend to die and theres no avalible 350/T5 one. I dont think it discredits the car at all, same thing with the SPID sheet. Ive had cars missing the SPID, it could not be there for any number of reasons. Everyone keeps bringin up how hes not postin casting numbers, in his earlier posts he stated hes not with the car and its in storage. Id like to see some castings tho, itd be interesting to find out what this car really is.
Matt

 

The ECM is a reman, the EPROM is original GM.

 

Any new news?

-Andrew

 

Alright, after reading all of these reply's, all of you have got me stumped!! I have a freind(older guy) he has a 90' TA- 5.7L/5-speed, I will get with him and take pics of his car, inside and out, He bought this car brand new, with 10.8 miles on it, now it has 780 miles on it, he is the original owner. I will let you guys know within a day or so!

 

Wait a second....Now we have 2 possible 350/5 speed car, built that way? And, the second one being a 90? I find it REAL hard to believe, that is was pulled off in '90. Is it possible he had it changed? Maybe he wanted the manual, and had it swapped right after getting it? If he had the $$$, anythings possible...

 

Doesn't this debate remind you a little of a movie thats about 10 years old now?... "Dry land is a myth, it doesn't exist...you could spend eternity searching and not find it" "...no, its out there, i know it!!! the map will show the way!!!"

LOL, i couldn't help it...i kept thinking about waterworld for some reason as i read this thread...

 

As much as I've always thought they DID exist, I'm beginning to have my doubts...I realize this post is only a month old, but the original poster hasn't really gone to any length to pursue any possible documentation. VIN #s, casting #s, previous owner questioning...And now we have a second "dry land".

 

OK, heres the deal. Talked to Jim(my friend with the 5.7L/5-spd TA) he said that the car had a 5.0 when he was going to buy it, he told them he wanted a 5.7, HE said that he special ordered it that way. He said they done a swap at the dealership, and put the decals on it like he wanted. SO HE SAYS! I looked at the sticker under the hood and it says 5.0L/5-spd, but the motor is a 5.7L, and it has 5.7L/5-spd TA on the hood, and bottom of the doors.I told him I wanted to take some pics and post them, he said he would let me know.

 

See the thing with that is...its not really a production car though. Because the build sheet and all the documentation is going to say 5.0/5spd. Just because the dealer did the swap doesnt make it any more real then if Joe Smo did it at home after he bought the car. Not raggin on your bud or anything. Its definetly SWEET that he had it done at the factory! And Ide really like to see pics of it one way or another...

But Im starting to loose faith...and Im starting to regret putting so much effort and arguing in this thread. Because now plenty of time has pass after we were supposed to get block numbers and trans numbers etc. I wasnt ready to write it off so quickly, but this delay isnt helping me any.


SO...lilbanger: For the sake of having some more entertainment in this thread..post up pics of that 350/5spd car that your friend has! With those low miles it should be cool to look at anyway!

Justin

 

subscribes*

 

I'll give it to the end of the week. If the owner doesn't reply with the info that we (the people trying to help) have requested, then I'm going to blow it off as a good "hackery" of a car and I will no longer be responding and or looking at this particular thread.

Maybe he allready got his answer and realized that his car was originally a 305 / 5-speed or an auto / 350 afterall.

 

Just as I predicted here over 2 weeks ago . . .
I've seen this topic come up many, MANY times before in conversation, debates and on messageboards and they always turn out the same way.

 

After seeing his post for selling this car I found this thread. Now one guy says the prom is for a 1988 305/5 speed correct? .... Yet the VIN indicates this car is a 1987 correct? ...... Now after seeing his pictures of the car posted in his for sale thread I found another very rare thing about this car. I've never seen a 1987 with serpentine belt drive. Wasn't serpentine introduced in 1988? Now with the guy that confirmed the PROM as being a a "88 305/5speed" prom and the fact this car has serpentine drive making this car out to be more "HOT" then "RARE"?

Is it possible this is indeed a 1988 1LE with a VIN swap? .... I'm not bashing by any means but I think it would be easier to prove this is indeed a 1988 1LE then a 87 350/5speed car.

I just don't believe anyone would replace a transmission tunnel, for a 5speed swap and even repaint it. To easy to just take a pair of tin snips to it. Thats what I did.

Mayeb the serpentine was swapped! but very hard to just splice wires without any noticeable signs. Yes I have tried this to LOL. And didn't 350 cars have dual fans and 305 cars got single fans till 1989?

Course my idea could be wrong as well LOL .... but since I'm interested in the car please help me ID a 1988 1LE and also wasn't there a rim change in the IROC's rims from something like 1 line to two lines?

Any help is appreciated

 

All 4 "88" 1le's have been accounted for. The vin states that it's a "87"

 

Sorry didn't now there were only 4 1988 1LE's .... but even so VIN states 1987 shouldn't have a serpentine belt drive Right? .... I had a 87 trans am many years ago I recall it having a V-belt drive. Maybe it's just a 88 with A/C delete and not a 1LE. Even if the poster said car fax comes back clean maybe it's a 88 that was totalled and they switched VIN's to try and keep it so it doesn't come up salvaged

 

Well, my 88 ta had a 305 in it and it has dual fans.... Besides why would it have a 305 prom in it if it were a 350? Sounds to me like a hacked up car.IMO

 

If you read some of his other posts he talks about some frame damage and possible quarter panel replacement on the right rear. The frame rail is apparently cracked.

 

There's a red IROC in the background of the for sale pic. Not like it wouldn't be too hard for someone to take a picture of VINs from one red car and claim they are on the same car that has the 5 speed stuff. Especially if both cars were all apart anyway while taking parts from one for the other... Like say the red 88 iroc had a 305/T5 originally, and the mystery car is a 350 car and now has the other cars 305. Which would explain the serpentine stuff.
Not trying to accuse anyone since the car is on the other coast and I can prove nothing.. but it would be easy enough, especially as a joke to see everyone's panties get wadded up. *shrug*

I could very easily do the same.. since I have pics of my 87 SC T5 car that was silver. I took pics of the floor pan so I would know where everything went when I did the t5 swap on my IROC. Take some pics of the VIN tags from my gunmetal IROC.. though the insides look pretty much the same color.

 

haha sorry jay if it appeared that way but i have two camaros and anyone who comes to check out the one for sale can feel free to look at both, ohh yeah sorry paul i didnt get a chance to call you today i was tied up, but ill defiantly give you a call tomorrow

 

So I guess the car was a hackjob afterall...................... not surprised.

 

Chances are it was raced at one time and with the clues like the paint ,red white and black.. and the 350 ,cage, bigger brakes ... it was common practice in club racing (SCCA) to mod cars this way from new and not think twice about it that would be my guess as to what it is, but being as old as it is it's going to be really hard to document anything ... I have worked for GM for years and have a pretty good idea about what is possible and what is not ... like I said in an eariler post I had seen "pre production" prototypes that could have been test mules at the GM training sites but I also saw them loaded on a crusher , and none of them had VINs and were clearly stamped
"pre production"... there are other possibilitys but most are unlikely at best
just build the car as you want and enjoy it ...

 

Final answer: The car was originally an automatic.

A local SoCal guy purchased the car to part it out, and my dad Dyno Don bought the tranmission stuff out of it. He saw the transmission tunnel, and saw where it was cut for the T5 and the hole for the automatic shifter was filled in. For what its worth, the engine in it now is a 305. No idea what it came with, as he didnt look at the VIN number on the dash.

 

The car was originaly a 350 Auto zero option car. I ran the numbers through GM and that's what it came back as.

 

So this was a troll, then?

 

Not a troll, just a guy who didnt know what he had. Or didnt have.