Just to let everyone know. You can go to Napaonline.com and buy a "Door pin and bushing kit" for $5.50. Also, the bushings look brass.

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1989 Pontiac Trans Am
305 TPI
Auto
2.73 Rear
Stock

Planned Mods:
Cam
Ported Plenum
3.42 disc rear
Headers and Exhaust

 

I believe that the NAPA bushing&pin is for the lower door hinge only.
Thank you for your input.

 

I've never had any trouble with NAPA in general, but I tried buying the Ragjoint or Steering Coupler for our cars there and got the wrong one. Second time that has happened, I've never seen one that has the correct size or hole dimensions to replace our ragjoints with. Basically, just because it sounds like the right part or is listed as the right part as mine was, doesn't make it the one you're thinking of. Descriptions are usually pretty vague.

 

The NAPA parts Pin& Bushing set listed at napaonline for $5.50 or so.Are identical to the GM part#s 20043351 pin & 9721917 bushing. Which are for the lower hinge. I have purchased both to compare them. They look identical to me.
I am working on some quality images at this time. But I just can't afford the $500.00+ digital macro camera right now. Once I get this image problem sorted out.I believe that I will be in a position to better explain and illustrate my point of view.

 

I too have found a solution to this sagging door problem. When I first got my car, the drivers door smacked off the GFX when ever you closed it. I came up with the solution of beating a large bolt in beside the bushing to keep the pin from bending in... this can be seen in the pic:



If there is sufficient interest I will be offering this as a kit. With the kit you will get an old bolt. You will have to provide your own blunt instrument for beating it in with. I estimate the cost to be around $63

PS: I AM ONLY KIDDING. this is the worst way you could ever try and fix a sagging door, but some how I forgot I did this, and the door still functions like new.

[This message has been edited by johnyIROC (edited November 04, 2001).]

 

The picture appears to be the lower door hinge detent roller.

 

yeah... that's the lower, that's the one that was causing my door to sag.

 

Hell, I will pay 500 for that "Bolt" kit.
(Nice Kit)

 

I finally got the website up and running properly www.3rdgensolutions.com sorry for the misunderstanding.Things might be a little clearer now.Thanx,ANDYZ28

 

I have to jump in and make a comment or two...

Kit = BAD

Any other method that involves using stock style service parts = better

Redesigning a hinge assembly that was designed by GM is a little silly. $65 is ludicrous. There are several articals on the internet relating to repairing sagging doors, all of which the writers swear buy. All of them are about the same and involve replacing the bottom hinge pins. All of them involve a cost of less than $20. It also seems to me that none of the other methods I've seen suggested involved modifying the hinge in such a way that if the repair were to fail, that the cars owner would be completely screwed.

At least using the GM method you can recover, once you start this $65 method your stock hinge will never be able to function as GM intended.

 

I agree with you completly.The LOWER hinge can be repaired for about $4.00. It is the upper hinge,which once it is worn out.Cannot be easily repaired with GM parts.GM wants you to cut,drill the old hinge off the door.Then drill holes to attach the replacement hinge.

 

I see a Techincal post coming


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1989 RS Camaro
305ci TBI
Mods:
Hedman Header
Highflow Cat
3inch catback pipe
FlowMaster 80 Series Muffler
14x3 Open Air Element
8.5 HighTemp Spark Plug Wires
4.7 Ohm Reistor
Torque Converter Lock Up switch
www.rit.edu/~cjp8408
AIM: PopaPork

 

I realize that many of you think that "The sagging door problem" can be corrected with about 20 minutes of work,and $4.00 worth of parts.And that is true for only the LOWER door hinge.The lower hinge was designed to be repaired with a replacement hinge pin,and bushings.But the UPPER hinge was not.
Here is a quote take directly from the 1984 GM F body service manual "Body Service" verbatum page 5-6;"The door hinges are made of steel and are welded to the door and bolted to the body hinge pillars. No adjustment provisions are used in this type system. The UPPER is a one-piece type while the LOWER hinge is made up of a door side and body side strap with a removable hinge pin."etc.
If any of you care to see the entire procedure as outlined by GM? It is available on my website www.3rdgensolutions.com
You might find it is interesting reading.

 

Count me in too Please!!!!!

 

Krush 32,consider yourself counted in!
I recieved the last production batch for 2001 yesterday.By the time I fill previous. I will only have enough remaining to do 23 doors.So if you want any.Please let me know soon.
Thanx,ANDYZ28

 

I think everyone understands that we're talking about the upper hinge when dealing with the kit you're selling. However, unless the hinge has been damaged in some manner, it shouldn't need any kind of repair. Any damage from the weight of the doors should be easily corrected by bending the hinges back to normal. Over the years I've been on here, I've seen several threads where members have fixed their sagging doors by repairing the lower hinge alone.

So I have to ask, why is the upper hinge even an issue?

 

Once the upper hinge is worn to the point where the door sags and hits the body.The integrity of the body structure has been comprimised.The doors are an integral part of the unibody structure of our cars.When these cars were designed by GM.They had to use every possible part of the car to reinforce the body because the car has does not have a "traditional" frame to rest on.So the doors and even the windshield were incorporated into the body structure.Once the door is closed on a third gen F-body it becomes one of the three things that prevent the body from flexing.Roof,Floor,Doors.The doors not only hold the windows,and keep the breeze out.But the massive reinfrocements they also contain help support the body.
I have a '69 Chevelle which of course has "traditional" body-on-frame type construction.The doors on this car have no reinforcements built into them.Because all they need to do is hold the windows,and keep out the elements.They are not part of the body structure.
For those who might be intereseted.The doors are really the only support for the cowl area on T-top cars.As is universally agreed upon,the T-top roof is not nearly as strong as a hardtop.The cowl is that area of the car that the firewall,windshield,hood,and doors attach to.When you drive any of our F-body cars around with worn out upper door hinges.The cowl is free to bend and flex about along with the rest of the body.This constant bending and flexing while we drive results in unseen cracking in the area of the body where the cowl meets the lower wheel wells.You may not see it under all that undercoating,and sound deadener.But it is there.I found this out the hard way.
So bending the door hinges to solve what amounts to a cosmetic problem with closing the doors.Is really only a band aid solution, to a surgury problem.If this bending of the door hinges suits your needs.Then by all means do so.But if you plan on keeping or restoring your car,or cars as I am.Then I strongly recommend you repair your door hinges.Especially if you plan on any racing,or high performance activities.Remember,the doors were not loose when the car left the factory!My hinges are tight and I believe that once I get my Spohn subs installed all my body noises will be gone.And I have two T-top cars.
I have written a rather detailed article on this subject on my website.It is a bit long to be repeated here.But I will be happy to repeat it if requested.
I hope I have been able to shed some light on this complicated suject.
Thanx,ANDYZ28

 

hi andy, could you please post more pics of this installed, my driver side door is sagging badly and it hits the fender and ground effects, i just replaced the lower pin and bushings, this helped a little, i noticed that the lower hinge on the door still has some play in it when lifted up and down, and the top one is worn as when you lift the door it moves back and forth also.

 

I will be posting some "installed" photos shortly.I believe this will help many who are in need of this critical repair.
Thanx,ANDYZ28

 

Andy, you lost me in a few places. I was under the impression that GM installed the bracing in thirdgen doors for safety reasons. The camaro is low, the door is big, if you get into an accident the door is so big that you're a dead man without that bar. The door is huge, it is big and long, I can see why it needs the bracing just to hold it's own weight! The idea that it's a brace for the whole body doesn't seem right. The door has 3 points connecting it to the body. The striker bolt doesn't seem to be in the best place to do any supporting other than holding the door closed. If you look at the inside design of the door, the braces are not connected in such a way that it would be supporting much of anything except the window. Both of my doors have small stress cracks just from the powerwindow motor and when the windows goes up or down the metal rattles and flex like crazy.
My impression is that subframe connectors take care of the problems and the doors don't help much at all. If you had a convert I can definatly visualize the door being used to help keep the car from falling in on itself over time.
If you have a 3 point strut tower brace I can see how this might help a little but I'm not a believer. Like Drew said, fix the lower hinge, if the door is "tight" you're good to go. I have to admit, the $60+ price tag is high enough that I would either do it myself or go and buy that old rusty bolt and do some jambing of my own.
I'm just being honest. I'm not a mechanical engineer either...not yet at least, 2 more years.

------------------
, Jon (350 TBI!)
91 Red My website

 

If what you say is true."That the door is not designed as a body supporting structure". Than why are the UPPER door hinges so much stronger?The UPPER pins and bushings are at least twice the size of the LOWER hinge.Their must be a reason for this?
As for the $60.00 vs rusty bolt method.If the rusty bolt method works for you,that's OK!But the rusty bolt idea is not for everyone.Nor is my $60.00 for everyone.Each system has it's merits.But as I have stated earlier,"having had both doors completely off of my '82 Z28,I won't do that again!"
With my system you can replace the UPPER (and lower if you want to)hinge pins and bushings without removing the door from the car.No wires to undo,no door panel to remove,etc.It is difficult task made easy.I guess that if it really comes down to it.It is convenience that I really offer.If you feel that the rusty bolt method is better.then that's good to.
Having been through this dilemma before.If their was such a fix as I have now developed.I would gladly have bought it.
Incedentaly I bought a new upper hinge assembly from my local Chevrolet dealer today;GM part# 12392848 @ $57.19 ea.I believe that is the wholesale or "trade" price.

 

Here is the requested "installed" photo of our kit, and an image of all the parts you get in the kit for clarity. Thanx. ANDYZ28.

1. Pin Installed in the door. Note that i removed the fender ONLY for the photo, and the kit can easily be installed without removing either the fender or the door.



2. This is the what you get in out kit to repair your 3rd Gen/F-body doors. You also get 0.5ml of Loctite 271 with the kit to, but it is not in the picture.



Any other info look at:

http://www.3rdgensolutions.com/

THANX ANDYZ28.

[This message has been edited by ANDYZ28 (edited December 02, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by ANDYZ28 (edited December 02, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by ANDYZ28 (edited December 02, 2001).]

 

If we were talking about solely the T-top cars I might for a minute go into this "doors are a structural component" business, but on the hardtop cars this definitely isn't true.
On the ttop cars this might be feasible since GM chose to use shims and plates in the door jam to reduce rattles, but on the hardtop cars GM left these pieces off. If the doors are such an important structural piece as you would like us to believe why didn't GM use these $.50 shims on the hardtop cars as well?
The way you make it out to be, our cars should noticably droop when we open the doors and sit inside. Having opened the doors and sat in many thirdgens I can't remember anythign of the like happening. Also having a friend that weighs nearly 500lbs, I've had the experiance of opening a thirdgen door (car has ttops by the way, and 130,000 miles) all the way and having my friend climb in (tight squeeze, but it works) I've never noticed a problem getting the doors to close correctly or the body sagging.

Multiple sources have gone into detail on why our doors sag, and many fixes have been proposed, but yours is the only one that involves $60 per door.

Your latest post with its shiny pictures is nice and all, makes what you're selling look like it might be a quality piece, but I really don't feel its necessary for most of our cars. For the ones that do need the upper hinge repaired, whats wrong with the GM method? From a restoration stand point I would certainly rather buy the GM hinges and have them welded in to remain %100 accurate and all GM. Also after replacing the upper and lower hinges the GM way I can't imagine they'd need to be replaced right away... I mean if they last 100,000+ miles in some cases, why would it be an issue?
I dont know, I'd just feel like I was selling out and making my car a little more rinky-dink everytime I opened the door to see brass hardware glaring at me.

------------------
Drew
predatorman@hotmail.com
83 Camaro 5.0L *1995-98*
87 Iroc 5.7L
91 Formula 5.7L 14.3@98mph
91 RS Convertible 5.0L
91 Firebird 3.1L 17.00@82mph *Gtech*
92 S10 2.8L
98 Grand Am GT 3100
Parts for sale

 

I must say I am somewhat surprised that such a relatively straightforward topic now appears to be bordering on controversy. We are all entitled to our opinions, after all the expression of opinions is what this board is all about. However I will respond to each point with the facts.

1) The question as to whether the doors on our 3rd Gen cars are an integral part of the body structure, can easily be tested.
Have a friend ride with you to a parking lot with speed bumps. Open both doors slightly, two inches or so. Now drive diagonally slowly at 5 MPH or so, over a speed bump. You will notice that the doors will move in relation to the body. Why is this?

2) "Multiple sources have gone into detail on why our doors sag, and many fixes have been proposed, but yours is the only one that involves $60 per door".O.K. Try $57.19 for GM part # 12392848 (Upper Hinge Assembly) L/R use the same part #. I must say that I found the " 20 minute body shop method" and the " jammed in rusty bolt method" unrealistic.

3) Re: My latest post " with its shiny pictures etc" The photos were only posted to illustrate MY method.

4) " For the ones that do need the upper hinge repaired, whats wrong with the GM method?". Well lets see! According to the GM service manual, " first remove all door trim, all wiring going to the door, and remove the door completely from the vehicle. Then carefully scribe the location of the original hinge where it attaches to the door. Now drill out all four MIG welds (the welds are inside the door, not on the hinge side) the welds must be drilled out from the hinge side where you have to kinda guess at the exact location of the welds. Now you must drill four entirely different holes to attach the new hinge to the door with four bolts and a reinforcing/backing plate".
Now here is the interesting part, GM has made no provision for welding the hinge to the door. As if that is not bad enough, of the the three bolt holes that originally attached the hinge to the body, the replacement hinge only has two. The third " missing" hole, is an index hole that is designed to locate the door exactly, so that it will fit and close properly. You must now guess at its location and drill a new one in the hinge. Remember I have done this job TWICE! Good Luck!

Remember four bolts attach the replacement hinge to the door and three to the body.
For those who doubt me, go to my website www.3rdgensolutions.com and view the actual GM workshop/service manual pages. Its very interesting, if not scary reading.

5) " I don`t know, I`d just feel like I was selling out and making my car a little more
rinky-dink everytime I opened the door to see brass hardware glaring at me".
My replacement pins are manufactured from 4140 steel,the same steel, military rifle receivers are made from. The bushings are phosphor bronze. The most durable non-ferrous material I could find. The nuts that retain the my hinge pins are the very same ones that are used to hold the turbine section of the A 404 jet engine together.
The bushings themselves are nearly invisible when the door is opened ( or closed for that matter).

My system may not be for everyone. But it can be done in about two hours (I have done it in 47 minutes). The door need only be supported, not removed. The original factory fit of the door can be restored without loosening or removing any of the original fasteners.

In the end I offer speed and convenience with a product that has taken over a year to develop.

Thanx,ANDYZ28



[This message has been edited by ANDYZ28 (edited December 07, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by ANDYZ28 (edited December 07, 2001).]