88TPI406GTA

Tom84L69,

I don't discount your experience on a newer chassis/car...but I am talking about OUR platform...not anything else...

It is a question or where/what to spend time/money on...If you have unlimited time/budget...do the swap...I would love to see braking #'s on it...

After reviewing Baer's data on it a while ago, the stopping distance with large brakes, large tires and a well tuned suspension is good enough...

In conclusion: While anything is possible, including ABS on our cars, it isn't practical...but I would love to see all the proponents of it actually do it...this argument is, to me, just like swapping the Vette IRS into our cars....can it be done...yes...has it been done...yes....does the cost/benefit analysis come out in favor of it? Not in my eyes...

Just MHO though...

MrDude_1

yea...

but look at baers data for fat tired, large rotor/caliper brakes with ABS.



its not like i cant upgrade the brakes when i add ABS.



main thing holding me up right now is im not swapping in the required 4thgen rear in until i get a T56 in the car... and after thats in, im still going to put 4.10s in the 4thgen rear before it goes in.

Tom84L69

88406...

I see your point, and I would not go through the effort to install it on my 84. Too much work and I don't drive it in bad weather
I also would not go through the expense of installing Baer brakes. My car is street only and the only reason I would upgrade is if I were autoXing or road racing. Besides, it has 4 discs already.

While you may get great stopping distances with Baers and big tires, you still can't turn when you have the wheels locked. That's my point. This is a safety issue.

I think the point of the thread was to find out the best way to do the swap, not opinions on whether or not to do it.
Then it turned to, "is ABS better than non ABS" and all this crap started. Anyway, I'm out.

Tom

D M N

Exactly my point

FlyDoc

OK it has been 6 years.

Has any one done this with success?

I am interested in doing this my self.

I would like to know how and what you used.

if you have not done it I don't want to here how it is not a good idea because of the work! or your opinions.
thanks

eseibel67

I came across this thread by doing a search last night. I was giving the boy some driving tips on ABS/non-ABS in freshly fallen snow when the thought came to me about retrofitting a fourth gen system onto a third gen.

It would seem entirely possible to me. Use a 3 channel fourth gen rear and a complete ABS module. The nice thing is that the motor, pump, valve body, computer and manifolds are all in one block that's about the size of 1/2 a loaf of bread.

Wiring diagram for 3 channel is attached. I wouldn't bother with a 4 channel since the traction control and cruise are rigged into the system. If you can get find a rotor with the correct reluctor, you should be able to retrofit a 4 fourth gen front wheel speed sensor to pick up the signal.

Now that was the easy part. If someone has spent the perspiration to actually do it, I would also love to hear from them.

And by the way, there is no argument about the merits of ABS, it's the best system for 98% of all situations.

iansane

iTrader: (1)

That's the problem I've found. From what I've researced the fourthgen ABS system (at least the 98-02 system) is Bosch based and uses a 47tooth reluctor ring. However, the s10 rotors use a 52 tooth reluctor. Not sure where to go from here.

dannyboyemt

This might help. These are high end cars but it shows the difference for anti ABS guys.
http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/show...=20693&page=73

dannyboyemt

Heres a vid of the ABS in action http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-f8zA...eature=related

zracTA

4th gen ABS system feels pretty lousy to me IMHO, I would attempt to retrofit something higher-end that presumably has better logic/more responsive sensors?

dannyboyemt

Mark Stielow uses the Z06 ABS system for his Camaro. He just tricks the comp into thinking the car is a C6 Z06 Vette. All the info on it can be found in the Lat G link. Someone mentioned that 4th gens would plow off course from using an R compound tire and it would confuse the comp so it would randomly release the brakes when braking into a turn. Not sure if its true but its just what i read.

iansane

iTrader: (1)

What other ABS systems that are more responsive have you tested?

zracTA

just about any? :shrug:

I drive a bunch of new cars around and have had the displeasure of seeing a '95 firebird ABS system at work in NE winters, it wasn't anything to write home about compared to new cars.

I have no idea what the differences are technologically, but adapting something that is 15+ years behind todays design does not seem as a great idea.

adapting brakes is one thing, bigger = better in most cases, but I would *hope* that GM has improved their ABS systems over the past 2 decades (it sure feels like it at least).

dctrouant1995

I know, old thread, but to bring this up again, has anyone does this yet? I would like to see the 4 channel set up done with traction control. I THINK I might have access to a 4th gen camaro v6 with a 4 channel system

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Is it possible to get to somewhat function ? Yes

Is it really feasable if you want it to actually work right ? Unless you've found the ability to do programming on the control valve assembly, not really.

kmcn47

.

iansane

iTrader: (1)

Do you know which of the 23 pages of that thread has ABS stuff? That will take a long time to peruse.

Jetmeck

iTrader: (3)

Regardless of the no bashing sign this is stupid and unnecessary.

If your gonna do such a PIA do it for something worthwhile.

Anyone can pump their brakes and get the same results without

fabbing up a PIA that will fail as in ABS wheel sensors and the expensive

ABS control module.

Good god...........

iansane

iTrader: (1)

I don't understand why you posted? The same could be said about any technology? Why use fuel injection? A carb can do the same thing without sensors that will fail! An ABS system can modulate the brakes a lot better than you can.

Just an fyi, you sound ignorant.

Jetmeck

iTrader: (3)

This is epic stupid **** thats why I posted..............totally unnecessary and not an upgrade of any type.

Been driving for 35 years according to your logic I should be dead since I drove for years without this ignorance.

Go over to a fourth gen board and ask around and check out all the threads trying to diagnose and fix ABS.

BS

iansane

iTrader: (1)

Most people have trouble diagnosing ANY electrical issues, let alone ABS. It is, however, not difficult if you're willing to trouble shoot just little bit.

When did I say you should be dead? I said that an ABS pump can modulate the brakes much, much faster than you can. I think you should calm down a bit...

And I would certainly call this an upgrade. My car is a daily driver and since I've upgrade the brakes its much easier to lock up the fronts, even with a large contact patch and good quality rubber. If you can't see how this would be an upgrade for a lot of daily driver performance cars, then I think you might want to just stop reading this thread. Or pretty much any of them.

TVP122

iTrader: (5)

yeah .. ABS sucks .. that's why the formula one racers cry and die when it's removed .. aaron senna ? but what did he know anyway ....
stop with the narrow minded gibberish .... ABS IS THE FUTURE ... and a GREAT CHEAT for racers everywhere ... REAL DRIVERS with NEVER post a bit different ! unless they like loosing ?

so the answer is ..... 4th gen rear and computer ... then we need a tone wheel reluctor with 47 teeth that'll fit on the back of a S10 rotor/hub ... or a 1le cut down to the same

I've been chasing this on and off for DECADES !!! now I'm back racing .. soooo .... it's time to do this ... I read the other posts from mrdude and crew from a decade ago ... gotcha on the front reluctor tone wheel .. 47t ... I found a couple on front wheel drives like daewoo, aveo and kia but the inside dia is like 70+ mm on most of them ... so I'm thinking of taking a S10 ABS rotor and turning down the tone wheel on it to put the other wheel on it ... not sure there is room but I ***-u-me if the outside diameter is the same .. we are done ... so of course it won't be ...

the next problems are ...

active/magnet wheel and sensor .. or not ??? the other post mentioned the stationary wheel ... so I ***-u-me it's active ? then the signal going into the 4th gen ABS computer needs to be within range ... i.e. .. we can't hook 3v logic to 5v .... but it'll work the other way around ....

chevyredneck8

iTrader: (4)

Isn't some of the newer cars wheel speed sensor built into the wheels and relayed wirelessly or is that just air pressure? I thought I remember an article somewhere about the issues of changing wheel on a supercar because of this, though again maybe it was just air pressure or they was using air pressure and temp for the traction control factors?

And I'd figure I'd throw this logic in factory Corvettes where banned in the 80s from racing series with the introduction of Abs because Porsche couldn't hang breaking against vettes I think they won the 1st 12 of the first 13 races and the advantage became really obvious during a race in the rain. That why their was a Corvette racing league for a little while

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Only the most modern ABS systems are worth retrofitting into a non ABS car. you're a lot better off learning how to actually brake your car in a panic stop situation without locking the brakes than spending a bunch of money converting to ABS. Go autocross and learn how to handle your car. All the autocross guys complain about their ABS anyway. The ABS in my GMC Sierra went haywire and randomly engages itself at low speeds significantly increasing my stopping distance, which at low speeds always involves tight spaces to begin with. I ended up working some bypass on the system to turn it off because I was tired of fearing for my life. Even when it worked properly it would occasionally hiccup and do something weird and freak me out, and dont get me started on gravel/dirt roads.

I am just not a fan. I know modern very high tech ABS can outperform a skilled driver, but htis passenger car crap from the 90s is not the right tree to go barking up.

iansane

iTrader: (1)

I don't think the issue is what system to use, it's the finding four sensors with equal output and mounting them to our cars. Everything else is just bending/flaring tube and supplying power/gnd.

RaverRacerX

how would one mount a reluctor wheel to the front of our cars? tthats the most pressing issue with retrofitting the ABS really.

kurtis72

I have a 75 Lincoln Mark 4 which has a very primitive ABS system on the back brakes. It is called "Sure-Track." It works though, you can stand on the brake pedal and it stops straight. There are no sensors, it just pulsed the back brakes under hard braking.
I don't know if GM had something similar?

LX_SS

Thats easy, there are hubs available with abs ring that will bolt onto our cars, you just need to mount the sensor to pickup the ring.

The main issues with abs retrofitting is the brake system used with it and the suspension characteristics compared to the original vehicle from which the abs originated.

ghettocruiser

iTrader: (4)

You would have to mount it on the back of a hub. I believe some S10's came with ABS. You then need to have tone wheels produced that will give the SAME pulse as whatever system you are using them with. (this was probably discussed in here already, but its a pretty big thread to sift through)

When you consider that the diameter and tooth size of the reluctor wheel will have to pretty much match the donor, it becomes kind of diffcult.

When I was looking into this however, I seem to remember that the tone ring on 4th gen hub assemblies was PRETTY close to the size of the S10. I even drew up a tone ring and got a quote on producing 10 sets. It was, expensive. And in the end, I just decided to abandon the idea.

With that said...ABS PROBABLY would have kept the front of my 87 from getting smashed in on the way home from the tuner haha.

Orrrrrrr...you graft the front end from a 4th gen onto our car, and use the 4th gen front suspension. Then its all plug and play. (Ala Fatal88) But, anyone that does that JUST for abs is crazy. Literally crazy. haha.

Its still a neat idea. Ide put ABS on my bird if I could turn it off and it didnt require giving myself a brain aneurism coming up with ideas.

J.

chevyredneck8

iTrader: (4)

I have a 99 s10 our wheel lug pattern is the same but I'm curious about our bearing size. I currently have c5 brake kit on my car which has a cut down rotor to allow the vette rotor without studs to slide over. If the bearing are the same wouldn't it be easy to cut down two S10 rotors and weld a bracket to mount the sensor off the spindle?

iansane

iTrader: (1)

2wd s10/astro rotors + astro dust shields and you have a front setup. Guys with front brake upgrades need to modify the shields a bit. The problem isn't finding a setup that bolts on, it's finding a setup that has a uniform pulse per mile signal front to back. S10/astro is 47toothI reluctor I believe while the 3channel 4thgen rears are 52 tooth I think. You'd have to machine a reluctor to match like gettocruiser hypothesized but that is crazy expensive for such a small run.

chevyredneck8

iTrader: (4)

Couldn't someone just set up the front wheels for abs. My car has disk front and back however it seems almost hard to lock the back. (at least the Braided lines upfront and bigger caliber and the wider tires are on the back. Other third gen owners with disk to drums or upgraded front brakes seems would be in the same scenario.

Not saying 4 wheel abs wouldn't be nicer but front wheel seems to be a large leap forward. I had an older S10 that either had front abs only or if the back wheels had abs it didn't function. But on an emergency stops ie deers or cars pulling out I could still stop fast and maneuver around and the occasional rear locking was manageable.

I've kinda learned the sweet spot on the brakes, but I'm would be scared to let any driver not used to a car without abs and powerful brakes drive. About the same spot where used to be the beginning of good brake pressure is know about a lock and skid spot.

I would be happy with front abs and a toggle switch that I could turn off if I wanna play with it

TVP122

iTrader: (5)

ABS updates ...... since my other threads were closed thanks to naysayers ....

I had 2 tone rings made last year ... I offered others and was laughed at. We've been plauged with other racecar issues which are winding down now ... I ordered brand new doorman S10 sensors from rockauto . I'm selling my LS1 bigbrakeupgrade and putting on C5 fronts with S10 ABS rotors cut down into hubs . Which then get SKF bearings , grease zerks , and CUSTOM, ONE OFF, ABS tone rings . The rotors are in my cobalt as I type this . I'm waiting on a call from any of my local camaro scrappers about hacking up a harness to get the ABS CPU . They don't want to ruin a perfectly good harness . so it's thanksgiving and a PERFECT weekend to hit the pullapart .. the one 90 miles from my house has a couple V6 4th gens ...the best part is , I only need 2 tools ... hammer and wire cutters with any luck , it'll be on and testing over xmas new years . next track day is jan 18th at little talladega grand prix .

BTW ... what we know now ....
2000 S10, pickup, 4 wheel ABS, 2WD, are the rotors and sensors to get
1LE rotors don't work for hubs ... they are 3/8" further out ...
S10 backing plates are NOT drop in .. they are going to be HACKED to death around the adapter brackets !

I THINK, 99-02 F-body Bosch ABS CPU without TCS .. 3 channels ... is the way to go ...
although I currently only have 4 channel rear ends the 4 channel system has to
talk to a LS1 computer , so , that ain't gonna happen :\ we have to run a stock TPI!

TVP122

iTrader: (5)

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/h...ods/page2.html


hhmmmm...... sounds like we can use the 4 channel setup afteral ...

Dakota W.

There is only one time I've ever needed ABS on my car in 2 years of owning it. When I was trying to beat a yellow left turn light on a wet road and wet train tracks. You really shouldn't need ABS if you're a good driver, because you won't be in situations where you'll need it. I've probably avoided more accidents by accelerating and steering than braking anyways.

dannyboyemt

would be sick to see abs converted for our cars. keep it up man, look at mark stielow, after he put abs in 2 of his 69 camaros theirs guys all over pro-touring.com trying to do the same.

RaverRacerX

thats all tuning. thats easy for anyone that is a competent pc user.

what hubs are those?

TVP122

iTrader: (5)

hubs ... one shows the old S10 ring ... other shows the custom one off tone ring ....

spindles .... big brakes 12.9" vette kit with S10 backing plate all hacked up ... I had to weld the plate to scotts adapter bracket to get a tight fit ...

I paid $50 shipped for a 2002 trans am traction control ABS unit off an ebay'er parter ..... about $120 into wiring ... 40 cluster so I have idiot lights .... and I plan on leaving the TC off ....

if you don't want to stay stock and cheap ... racetronix makes a box that'll take ANY PULSE per mile count !!!! of course it's $750 +\-

RaverRacerX

Kore3 will cut a shoulder and install a ring onto their hub for you if you want it

ghettocruiser

iTrader: (4)

TVP122: AWESOME work so far! You are doing it exactly how I planned on attempting. Where did you get the tone rings made? Did you end up getting a batch made up or just a set?

I was running the LS1 PCM, as well as all associated parts, so I figured talking to the ABS unit would be a breeze. It was getting the darn front wheel inputs to work that had me hesitating.

And for those wondering why do it... There are def certain situations where not having abs is handy. There are plenty of situations where having it is also. I know when its wet out, and I have to step on the brakes say, going around a curve, and its a quick hard brake, Ide rather not having ANY of my wheels lock up. Because as soon as they do, you're going to have to manage whatever control you are losing. Be it rear sliding, or front pushing. Yes you can do it without abs. No its not always going to work out for the best haha.

On dry roads, without a doubt Ide rather not have abs. But the nice thing about a custom set up is, it can probably be shut off with a switch, just like traction control, without causing a huge fuss with the PCM. Since its a custom set up.

It would just be nice to be able to flip it on for casual, daily driving circumstances. Heck...sounds like some track guys even like it. And if you want zero assists at your track day, flip the switch and its gone.

I for one hope it works. I still have my 4th gen ABS unit stashed away with the lines all plugged up JUST in case!

J.

IrocRoadRacer

ABS sucks, you don't want it after you've driven a car that does have it. It makes stopping distances longer, and it engages when it shouldn't many times.

TVP122

iTrader: (5)

yep ... when I had those rings made , I offered them up and got nothing but feedback from people that don't run up front and drive slow on the street ! so ... my pair of rings are the only ones in exsistance ! unobtainium at this point . I tried ... even waited a month ... that was last year ...now the project is so close I can feel the pedal vibrate already I can't wait ! now I'll be able to slam on the brake AND TURN all at the same time ! just like all the front running guys that win races , in Bummers, Benzenes , and porches ... it's bad enough that they ALL HAVE INDEPENDENT rears ... I can barely hang in the corners with the s2000 pack using this dinosaur straight axle !!

WARNING .... RANT AHEAD ..... weak narrow minded need not read any further ....it'll only want to make you post more of your ignorance ... best to keep the keyboard silent and keep them quessing .. than to post and remove all doubt ...


and let me guess, some back marker, mister safety, is going to try and say a solid axle is better too ? you know an open diff will keep you from sliding sideways ?? fuel injection is fuel delivery for stupid people ? ABS is for people with only one brake pedal and one spare foot ? air bags and seat belts are for people with weak arms that can't hold onto the steering wheel to keep from flying out the window . AWD is for housewives ... oh yeah ... don't leave a battery on a concrete floor !!!! ROTFLMAO those are ALL QUOTES you hear from the same mouth breathers as ABS sucks .... why is ABS BANNED in most racing classes if it sucks ? why did arron senna (sp?) die the weekend it was banned in F1 ? why do I see the WORLD CLASS PROs lock up a tire in a corner ? why can I read goodyear on a nascar tire in a 180mph slide ? those are the BEST OF THE BEST and they still lock up ... why is that ? they are LEAPS and BOUNDS better than ANYONE ON THIS BOARD ... period !!!! yet .. they still lock up and slide out of control ? yet , you think your better ? REALLY ? in a 1992 or older car ? against the latest and best hardware out there ? REALLY ?

so .,.. don't post if you can't comprehend the future that ALL CARS HAVE .... DO NOT slam this thread with your narrow minded gibberish ... the mods already closed all the good ABS threads because of YOU!!! we need atleast one left open so the future of our cars can progress beyond quadajets, mech fuel pumps, vaccum distos, 10" rotors, 15" rims, drag conf higher than .5, rear drums, 180hp, ... all that happened in 1985 ... what year are you stuck in again ?

if you have something to add .... MAKE IT A POSITIVE ..... otherwise .... DON'T .... you only look uneducated and unexperienced ... you know ALL new cars have ABS and no switch? TCS ,swtiched , pass side air bag , switched , ABS ... ON ALL THE TIME .... unless you ordered a SV cobalt .. which I had the displeasure of sliding down about 16 hills last night .. atlanta roads have an inch of ice on them today ... all the cars and trucks in the ditches didn't have ABS !!!! not a single Yukon/Tahoe/Sub there ! I didn't see ANY cars with ABS run into cars without ... it was the EXACT opposite !!! ATLEAST 60 wrecks .... watch the big pile ups on youtube ... you can see the non ABs cars sliding sideaways into them out of control ...


ABS is brakes (not breaking!) for dummies ? well ... I'm that dummy !!! I want to be as dumb as the people who win the races I'm in and make it home in one piece on the MOUNTAIN ROADs I DRIVE !! if you want to prove me wrong .... RACE ME !!!!! your here .... you have the same car ... show up and RACE ME !!! don't post more trash ... put your brake pedal where your keyboard is !!! I run around ATLANTA ... so .. meet me at barbor, VIR, road A, little tally, roebling rd etc etc ..... man up and post a place and time .... there's LOTS of poeple doing LOTS of open tracks days ... OTHERWISE your bench talking trash ...h311 put up 600-800 bucks and I'll let you run my car in a race ... I'll disconnect the ABS for you !! still think you can out brake me ? I've been racing for over 25 years in just about every form . ABS is a HUGE advantage, and no, you can't make it up in skill or practice !

penguinpanda0

Any progress?

TVP122

iTrader: (5)

a little .... rebuilding entire front end of car at the same time .. and installing ported intake ... now I'm distracted on a side job to pay for it all

seanof30306

iTrader: (4)

TVP122, I applaud you for at least trying. I hope you are successful.