charlie31603

iTrader: (10)

I was wondering if you can get abs to work on a third gen? I'm allready swiching to a forth gen rear and goning to do the c5 brake up grade. So will it work?

Thanks for all the help!

MrDude_1

im trying to do the same thing.

i am having a REAL HARD time finding info on the EXACT way the abs systems work. i mean, i know how most GM ones work in general, but i need more in depth info.. and i donno where to look.



basicly i have 2 probs right now..

1. i donno what info the ABS system needs for input besides the wheels

2. 1 dont have a way to trigger the front wheels. backs are easy (4thgen rear) but the fronts have the trigger on the "hub" and with the mod to allow other brakes, you still have the stock hub, therefor, no sensor.



3 i dont know how to program them if needed. athough i donno if it would be needed.








if i had more money now (i dont) i would get a s10 blazer ABS system to test with... they are small so packaging shouldnt be a prob.. and seem to be pretty simple.... plus the blazer weights about the same as our cars, and uses very similar brakes.... so if i got a system out of say, a disc/drum blazer, it should work on my disc/drum camaro......... should.





i really would like to have it though. i just wish i had the money to experiment...

RSRagtop

With the entire 4th gen brake system installed, the hard part is the exciter ring, which is the gear thing on the back of the rotor. The sensor on the spindle detects pulses from the ring, and the computer interprets the signal and adjusts the braking on locking wheels. I think that S-10 hubs are way to go, if they fit the 3rd gen spindle, fabbing the mount for the sensor shouldn't be too tough. If that doesn't work, some way must be devised to attach an exciter ring to our front hubs ( or rotors ). IMO opinion this is a worthwhile upgrade if it can be made to work.

charlie31603

iTrader: (10)

what else is involved besides just the sensors and ring thing?

alloy

iTrader: (16)

FYI:

I just did a C4 brake upgrade on Dewey's 1990 RS and I used an old S10 brake rotor made into a hub on Dewey's car. The S10 rotor came off my 1990 shop pickup and fit perfectly on the 3rd gen spindle.

I don't know about later S10 rotors, but the 1990 one worked on his car. You could probably check and see if a newer S10 rotor fits an older S10 and have your question answered that way.

Matt_91RSTPI

A PCM with ABS control.

TwinTurboROC

most pcm's dont control abs systems.... some but not all use a seperate abs module (another computer). aslo abs uses a different type of servo system that you will have to adapt into ur current brake system.... also you will have to ensure a redundant system so that if the abs fails that your brakes operate in a normal fashion....

i would think your major problem would be where to put the hall effect ring and sensor on a thirdgen front end.... our spindles dont have alot of room as far as i can recall.... but i havent taken a real good look at my car's spindle lately....

? why even try doing this.... though it is a worthwile project... during the snow/rain days most abs systems act buggy..... and cause more trouble for a driver than a regular braking system... now i dont know if u drive ur car in every sort of weather condition possible like i do....

PyRo9862

Didn't 91's and 92's have ABS?

RSRagtop

Good the s-10 rotors fit. I know that the previous generation s-10s had ABS at least the last few years of their run, I don't know if the newer ones have rotors that fit our spindles. If I recall that the s10 spindle is not different were the rotor goes, shouldn't be too tough to fit a sensor in there. I have some minitrucker friends who routinely ditch their ABS and frag their stock rotors 'cuz of their huge freakin' rims, I try to get a hold of some parts and do a little tinkering. Since I intend to swap nearly everything from a LS1 parts car ( when funds are availible ), I am planning to swap the entire 4th gen brake setup too, with a little tweeking I'm sure the 4th gen stuff can be made to work, the trouble spot is the front rotors.

charlie31603

iTrader: (10)

Click on my sig. at the top of the page.

Dewey316

your having ABS doesn't stop a 3 ton SUV.

88TPI406GTA

Hey charlie31603,

Did your car have 1LE brakes on it or the stock ones? What about tire size? Did they offer a large contact patch? (Larger than stock) If your tires can't keep traction with the road, then brakes won't matter...

It has never occured to me to want to upgrade to ABS because with upgraded brakes and a nice fat tire contact patch, it simply isn't necessary...

Also, the ABS systems that are talked about "upgrading" to are light years behind the current technology and they show it...

MrDude_1

hmm.


my dad had a 94 s10 blazer with ABS.

i wonder if thoes rotors do fit, then i can use that for my hub and make the abs system work.



btw, yes they arnt the newest, but they work, and are still better brakers then you can ever be. why? i want to see you install 4 brake pedals work them all perfectly and individually and still steer the car in a panic situation.

this isnt a pefectly groomed surface. this is the street. and one wheel will hit a lil more sand/dust/whatever on the road and will lock up before the rest.

the ABS i choose to use may not be the best or newest, but it sure is better then nothing. and it can be used with bigger brakes to take full advantage of them...




but this thead is NOT a for or agienst pro or con ABS thread... no more bashing please.. if you dont like the idea, move on.....





ok, heres my idea... the stock Delco ABS system from a 94ish blazer is a seperate unit and i know it uses a seperate ABS computer..

i want to pull it and use it with the ABS "hubs" i can make from a s10...

how many teeth are on the rear sensors on a LS1 car and how many on a stock s10 ABS? anyone have one they can go out there and count for me?

MrDude_1

no 3rdgen ever got ABS. 4thgens had it as a option ( think it became a "standard option" in later years)

charlie31603

iTrader: (10)

No it was a stock system, but it was all brand new stuff. The tires were 245 60 15.

charlie31603

iTrader: (10)

me having abs dosnt do anythig for the suv. but I wouldnt have skidded 100 feet and plowed into her!

MrDude_1

nope.. instead of skidding to a stop you could have managed to stop faster and still be able to steer around them..


mostly, i like the idea of being able to steer and stop at the same time.

why?


because all the idiots on the road already have ABS.

88TPI406GTA

So asking a question means I am bashing? This thread is about the ability to retrofit safety equipment to our cars and modifying them to be safer, more controllable...in case you hadn't noticed, brakes are not the only thing affecting stopping power. Tires, shocks (to control car swaying in a slide) and suspension are all important. You can't look blindly at ABS as the answer.

As for ABS...the newest ABS is phenominal and have shown on the 2002 LS1 4th gens to work exquisitely in conjunction with...drum roll...big brakes and fat tires (according to the tests of the WS6 package that I have seen).

If you can retrofit the 4th gen ABS...that would be REALLY neat, not GM Truck ABS, as I can attest to in my 94 Suburban...

MrDude_1

i would love to put the 4thgen abs in... but so far, the only in depth info i can find is for the ty/sy boxes..... and thoes are the same as the S10s.... so thats what im thinking about using for now..



if i can find the info im looking for, i'll go the whole fbody route...

88TPI406GTA

OK...if that is the case...bad idea...that era of GM ABS sucks...

but researching how to do it might make it more easier to swap a newer type in, they I will be awaiting the results...

MrDude_1

what makes them bad or the fbody one better?

does it use a higher resolution sensor on the wheel or somthing?



and there is zero info out there on them.... does anyone know where i can get a GM service manual that can tell me everything about the ABS??

88TPI406GTA

I simply know from my experience that the electronic control is lacking...the newer computer controls are much more sophisticated...it has nothing to do with the resolution of the wheel sensor...but rather the ABS ECM's ability to take multiple variables, including VSS input and TPS input to determine if the ABS is needed...

I don't know where you can find comprehensive technical info...check with the dealer, I suppose...

Dave Y

I hate ABS, I think it is best with lower experiance drivers, when I drive a car w/ABS, I have a harder time stopping

Last winter I was driving in the snow and had to hit the brakes, the ABS actuated, and I LOST STEERING (YES, with the ABS working), I had to pump the brakes to stop and steer

this was in a 2002 Chrysler PT Cruiser

88TPI406GTA

Now that I think about it...the GM ABS sucks on cars too...I can think of experiences with a 94 cavalier, a 96 S-10 (newer design) and even a 2002 Chevy 2500 HD Duramax truck (although nearly as bad with the 2002)...and with my own Suburban...if I do/did a panic stop, sometimes the weight transfer off the rear wheel would trigger the ABS...and the cavalier had a problem where it could engage on a damp road coming to a stop...making stopping distances LONGER...

ABS still isn't as good an option as good hard parts on the car...but I would like to see how to retrofit a Vette ABS system to our cars...along with the suspension and full LS1 drivetrain

charlie31603

iTrader: (10)

do too the concution in the accident, I dont even rember tring to stop much less stop and steer around her. All I know is every time I see a test with abs its almost all ways stoping shorter.

MrDude_1

as a ASE Master Mechanic im sure i dont have to tell you how ABS works... but ever try to think about the fact that you were trying to slow down on snow and steer at the same time?


panic stop with no ABS:
apply swift firm pressure to pedal until you reach the peak.. if you go too far, back off the pedal, and reapply (aka pump it)... and if you are pumping it to gain more pressure, heh, you have a brake prob to begin with...

panic stop with abs:

slam on the brakes and hold. steer around if needed...

the inital pressure spike, along with the amount of pressured needed for each independant wheel is compensated for much quicker then you ever could.. and it works great the majority of the time..

and when it doesnt, its not like you could do anybetter with regular brakes... example:

with ABS on the snow in a PT cruiser, you attempt to hit the brakes and turn... traction is lost as you attempt to slow down and you have to let off to use the same traction to steer...

without ABS on the snow, you attempt to hit the brakes and turn... traction is lost as you attempt to slow down and you have to let off to use the same traction to steer...


*shrug* im a smartass....




i guess the real results can be seen by installing it.. pulling the fuse out, stopping ( it acts like normal brakes then) and then replacing the fuse and doing the exact same thing...

MrDude_1

anyhoo.. i wonder if i can hide it and get away with it in autocross...

AGood2.8

You don't want ABS on a race car. You will never be able to set the rearend into a turn with the brake pedal. The car will just plow the front end.

MrDude_1

just a idea...

my car plows the front end right now anyway.

keeping in mind that i have a stock suspension (complete with stock orignal struts) i was thinking more like, i could brake later harder before the corner to help lower my times... currently, my car plows straight ahead anyway..


when i do the brake upgrade, im also doing the struts and bushings in the front suspension... till then though, she understeers like crazy. esp since i just did the rear shocks.

87WS6

iTrader: (1)

Can't you just take everything you need out of a fourth gen? If you used their rims and tires couldn't you get everything to fit?

Electron_Blue

rear 4th gen suspension would be pretty easy.....the front end would be much more complicated though...we only have a lower contorl arm and strut....they have upper and lower and shock

MrDude_1

4thgen rear is no prob.
and if i knew how everything worked for the ABS computer and such, i could use that. and the master cyl bolts right up... and you can even make a bracket to mount the 4thgen brake calipers..

the problem is that the hub and rotor are seperate with 4thgens.
now you can modify a 3rdgen rotor into a hub that would work, however, the 4thgen hub is what the ABS triggerwheel is on.


now if a blazer hub would work, and it has the ABS sensor, we could be one step closer...

TheGreatJ

Better than being a dumbass.

TwinTurboROC

question... the blazers you speak of are they 4wd or 2wd... if they only have abs on 4wd models.... the abs rings might be on the end of the front cv axels... if i have on in the shop ill take a look for you and see if i can snap a few pics.. what years you looking for ?

Tom84L69

I had 4 wheel ABS on a 98 S10 2wd, I'm sure the 2wd blazers would have it. Come to think of it, the later 2wd blazers have 4 wheel discs as well.

Zepher

iTrader: (1)

Quick tip on the 4th gen rears.
Cars with ABS only had a reluctor ring on the carrier with a sensor on top of the pumpkin.
Cars with ABS & Traction control had the reluctor rings on the inside of the axle flanges and a small sensor on each backing plate.

I know I have 2 rears from cars with traction control, and I think I may still have the one with the reluctor ring on the carrier. If I still have it, I'll post a picture of them.

charlie31603

iTrader: (10)

These are all good ideas, looks like with a little work it could work.

D M N

sick.. i dont know about you but ABS for me (16 with 93 Lumina Euro) has saved my *** more then one time

82camaro

I have a 91 GMC Jimmy 2wd 4dr with 4 wheel antilock brakes--you won't want these. They are turned off, of course I dislike anti-lock brakes. The other car, a 95 cutlass also has ABS. The only advantage is turning while braking if the driver doesn't know how to use the brake pedal. Gravel is the worst. Every ABS vehicle I've driven takes way longer to stop on gravel. Why you ask, on gravel the tires are constantly slipping. Hardly hit the brake at all and the abs kicks in and you go right through an intersection. Without abs, the tires lock, dig in right through the gravel to the hard dirt below and you stop fast. Night and day difference--go try it with you ABS daily driver if you can disable the ABS. Same is true on snow or if you hydroplane on water. The downside is you can't steer with the wheels locked--so let off the brake enough to get the steering back(helps if the driver knows the car). Packed snow/ice and wet surfaces with a driver that is inexperienced or doesn't know the car at all is where abs shines. Hammer the brakes hard and you can still turn. Usually abs test are done on a wet surface(not enough to hydroplane) and trying to turn--to show how ABS allows a driver steer with the brakes applied as hard as possible vs. locking them up. I would seriously weigh the pros and cons of abs before converting. The new ABS systems are better, but they still prevent lock-up of the tires-- in many cases locking up the tires is good, slows you down much faster. Then if you need to steer, let up on the brake. ABS takes that control away from the driver.

MrDude_1

i'll just refrain from driving my camaro on gravel then.

jaredi

The best thing I can think of as a pro is in a panic stop situation. Even the best of drivers get into them. I had a friend who owned an absolutely beautiful 92RS. White with red stripes. He ran up on a box van half way into his lane and hit the brakes at about 45MPH. There were black marks 90ft long... leading stright into a ~15ft deep x 40ft wide ditch with a creek running in it. The car nosed down and hit a tree with the front passenger side. It flipped over and landed upside down in the creek. Both of them got out though. I want ABS desperately because I never know what's going to happen, and as competent as my friend was, it just scared him. I have alot of faith in myself, but I know there's always the possibility that I can't prepare for something and the natural reaction that I have to that might screw me over.

As for just putting bigger tires on the car so that the front wheels can't lock, what about a panic stop in the rain. If it had been raining that night my friend wrecked it wouldn't have mattered if he'd had 315s up front. I drove that car the night before that happened and tried out his brakes to compare with my Thunderbird. The Tbird ABS was a nice system, no complaints about it. But I noticed and the Camaro that if I was on the brakes a little and just gradually put them all the way down the car wouldn't lock them up, but I was rolling about 60MPH and I just slammed on them as hard as I could. What happened? I skidded prolly a good 40 ft. and let out of them. I had only slowed to like 45 or something.

Just something to consider. I'll see if I can get some pics of the aftermath of his car.

And as far as gravel goes... We don't have a whole lot out here in KY. I know there's lots of gravel in the midwest, but I have very little experience with it, in a vehicle without ABS.


Jared

EDIT: Clrayfied a few things and added the bit about gravel.

Tom84L69

The only advantage non ABS has is on snow or gravel. The snow or gravel forms a wedge in front of a locked tire and MAY shorten stopping distances. The thing is, when you have those wheels locked with wedges under them, you can't steer! Pump the brakes then you say? Well that is what ABS is doing, but hundreds of times faster than you.

I went through Advanced Driver Training when working at the GM proving Grounds. they had Grand Prix GTPs rigged so that a button could turn off the ABS. They made us drive with one side of the car on wet and one side on dry. They told me to hit the brakes as hard as I could at 40 mph and keep the wheel straight. the non ABS car went into an instant spin, it spun 6 times at only 40 mph!

then he turned on the ABS and we did the same thing. No spin, just a controlled ABS stop. That sold me, although I was already sold. If you say you don't want ABS, don't sue GM when you unhook the fuse and crash!

88TPI406GTA

Tom84L69,

Don't forget the point of this post...which I think is to retrofit ABS to our cars...but unless you want to retrofit a new (2001-2002) system...what is the point? Retrofitting an S10 system from the early 90's isn't worth the effort...

Also, I want to point out that the stock tires on a GTP are not the greatest either...I wonder how the test would have turned out with some kick *** tires on the otherwise stock car...

D M N

ABS never came factory in our cars??

MrDude_1

nope.. never.

so if i ever get my 4thgen rear in, and get around to finding a exact way to put a sensor on the front, i will have the only 3rdgen with ABS in existance...... ( i hope i dont rear end someone after i gloat about that.. lmao)

D M N

that would be cool

jaredi

This is why I like ABS.

88TPI406GTA

I still maintain that fat rubber, great brakes and constant vigilance is better than ABS..

Thread content: When someone does the swap...post the pics

Tom84L69

88TPI406GTA,

I still maintain you're wrong, ABS is better faster than any driver.

Thread content ABS on your thirdgen would be cool, please post photos

Matthew91-Z28

I guess we could go on and on about whether ABS is better or not. I think that in 91-92, GM had ABS in the grand prix's too. You have to wonder why GM used ABS in them and not f-bodies of the same era. By that time, ABS was already being used for 3-4 years by other makes (ford?). I'd probably say that with the 4th gens in the design process and 3rd gens in their last years of production, GM ignored 82-92 in favor of rolling out the newest gen f-body with lots of "new" features for the sake of $$$.

Umm..I there are some great resource books you can find at Barnes&Noble/ Borders. Can't think of the name but they're all in the automotive section. Have some great info in them and one of the books on breaks had some good diaphragms on the ABS setup. You'll need a M/C out of the parts car too.

I think ABS is possible on thirdgens as well as TCS (traction control sytem).

Give it a shot and see what happens.