I want to make my system clear but still have the base like my house speakers do??? Any Suggestions that would cost an arm and a leg

 

go to local shops and start listening to stuff. Buy what you like the sound of, and in regards to the bass, buy the biggest amp you can afford (within reason). If it's not loud enough, keep buying more subs (and potentially more amps) until it is.

 

its not that i want more sound its that i want clear sound!! No distortion out of my interior speakers!

 

then buy good interior speakers, and AMP THEM, that will help clarity so much, you wouldnt even believe it.

i have a JL 300/4 running two pioneer kevlar 6.5s with MB quart tweets in the pillars,

two fosgate HE2's on a 900.1 Pheonix Gold.

the subs could be a little cleaner, but the mids and highs sound GREAT.

if i were looking for clarity from a woofer, id look at JL.


adam

 

An amp only helps with clarity if you play it louder than what the head unit can produce without clipping. 10 watts from a 100 watt amp sounds exactly the same as 10 watts from a 20 watt head unit. If you don't run a separate sub and your speakers play full-range, then the 20 watts from a head unit can be a real handicap at normal listening volumes.

But... my original advice still applies. Go listen to stuff and buy what you like the sound of. If you really want good sound, plan on buying a subwoofer. Although most non-audio people think the only purpose they serve is to rattle your windows at 2 AM, the fact is, a properly set up sub is essential for good full-range sound.

 

“An amp only helps with clarity if you play it louder than what the head unit can produce without clipping”. Not quite right. The integrated amps in almost all HUs have a vary sharp increase in the THD as the power leval goes up. The band width and slope on these amp is also vary pore. Look at the old Pioneer GM-X334, this was a 35X4 amp. At the time the Pioneer HUs where rated at 45X4. So the amp was bigger in physical size but put out less power?? It wasn’t a vary loud amp, but was vary clean. I think the amp was rated at 35X4 with 0.08% THD and the HUs where 45X4 at 5.0% THD, that is a VARY big difference! These numbers are from my memory so they may be a little off. So running off an external amp will almost always give a cleaner sound. The best advice is to do some homework and buy QUALITY equipment.

 

The THD is almost completely flat until the FETs clip due to limited rail voltage. You're going by the head unit's peak ratings, which are garbage to begin with, so yeah, if you manage to get the head unit to produce that much power for a fraction of a second, the THD will be extreme. Within the RMS power range (i.e. 20 watts and under), the THD is low.

If you do a little bit more homework, you'll learn all about peak vs. rms ratings, and with even more homework than that, you'll learn all about how an amplifier works, and how low THD is even on the ultra cheap amps until you saturate the FET or limit the rail voltage.

 

Let me said that I hope we can keep this as a discussion. I’m not trying to flame you. And I should have said that the power of the HU is 45X4 MAX and the Amp was continuous, and that the 5.0% THD for the HU was at the continuous output rating, brain fart, my mistake. Let me give some more info.
.
The GM-X334 is rated at 30X4 at 4-ohms continuous 20Hz-20KHz 0.08% THD, THD at 10W 1KHz 0.008% and 0.002% at 2W 1kHz output.
70X2 MAX at 4-ohms with 0.8% THD
You can see that the slope of this amp is not linear, just like you said. But also not “almost completely flat”. This is the THD Vs. Power Slope (or delta THD Vs. Power) for this amp. You can also chart the THD Vs. Frequency (or delta THD Vs. frequency) but this is not a slope but would look like hill with a drop off at the low and high frequencies the amp was designed to operate within. Because this is an audio amp that range is 20Hz to 20kHz.
A pioneer HU of the same vintage (DEH-P4000 I think) is rated at 22X4 at 4ohms continuous 50Hz-15KHz <5.0% THD
45X4 MAX at 4-ohm
That is all the info on the HU that I can find. This is what it’s rated at and NOT the “as tested” values. “As tested” values would be less then the rated as they are rated for perfect conditions.

A couple of thinks about this specifications. These are out of the service and test documents from Pioneer. These are the document that they use to make the service manual. These are the specs. as tested.
And most important ALL THD measurements are taken at 80% of the stated output power. So the 0.008% at 10W is in reality taken at 8W output. Why they did it that way ???, but that’s what is in the documentation. I think it was just a mater of rounding that 77% for RMS off to 80%. So the sated value is peek and the “ALL THD measurements are taken at 80% stated” are the RMS value. Then there’s Max output Vs. continuous output. MAX output is usually twice the rated continuous output. But like you said MAX is not really worth anything.
As you can see we don’t have as much info on the HU but we can extrapolate from the Amp data that at about 20W output the THD of the Amp would be approximately 0.032%, only an estimate I know. Now compare that to the “better then 5.0% THD” of the HU at 22W output. It’s “better then” because of the wide tolerances of the MosFET ICs used by Pioneer in the HU.
It’s true that the amps in the HU are MosFET based, but the GM-X334 uses bipolar transistor in the amplifier stages, not a big concern. This gives that amp a more linear slope, but still not linear.
It’s also important for the newer people reading this thread to under stand the difference between THD (Total Harmonic Distortion) and clipping and peeking, the type of distortion your talking about.
THD is defined in the simplest terms as “The noise referenced to signal in decibels (dB) as a percentage.” In this case noise being any difference in the output signal when compared to the input signal. THD is a measure of how well an amp can reproduce a given audio signal at a given power.
Clipping and Peeking is when the transistor is driven into saturation, or all the way on. The circuit can’t give you any more output because the positive and/or negative (in a push/pull amp) supply voltages have been reached.

 

I guess it boils down to how we look at things. Apparently you and I both know how THD vs. power graphs look.... flat until all of a sudden the THD skyrockets. Rather than rating the deck at 17x4 @ .08% THD like they should, Pioneer rates it at 22x4 @ 5% THD. It's a trick to make it look more powerful, and it's the reason that any deck power claims can be completely ignored.

When I made my comments, I was referring to the sound you get when the amp is operating within it's realistic capabilities. When you exceed the capabilities of the amp, the THD shoots up. I guess that if you hold head unit to the letter of the law and expect a full 22 watts out of it, then yeah... it's going to sound like garbage. But ultimately it still boils down to how loud you need it. at a 10 watt output, the head unit is going to sound the same as the outboard amp at 10 watts. When both are operating within their legitimate design parameters, both are going to have THD far below audible levels.

If you attempt to use your head unit to drive speakers in a full range configuration, the 17 watts isn't going to get you to far, and I'll agree that there is definately a major advantage to having a separate amp (although low volume clarity still isn't one of them). If you run your speakers on high-pass (with a separate sub I would assume), then 17 watts can go a long way. I've got a couple of my cars set up like this, and the deck power is capable of providing quite a bit of volume when you use all the power for higher frequency reproduction. In these cases, 10 or 15 watts of power is adequate, and because you're still within the amp's legit capabilities, the THD is low and the sound quality is good.

I think we're disagreeing here because we're both trying to prove different points, and not because we're at odds over the same point.

Anyway, it has been my understanding that a THD spec is a very different spec than noise, which would explain why they are specc'd individually for many amplifiers. My understanding of THD is that it's more or less the percentage of the output signal that is part of the upper harmonics (3rd, 5th, etc).

As soon as your signal clips, you get a PILE of THD. If you're familiar with square waves, you'll remember that a square wave is produced by an infinite amount of harmonics. In one of my classes in college we expirimented with this by adding harmonics upon harmonics until we got what was close enough to a perfect square wave for all intents and purposes. So... the reason that your THD skyrockets all of a sudden in an amp spec is usually a result of the signal clipping, which of course more and more resembles a square wave as it clips more severely.

 

So if i hook an amp will it help me get clear less distorted sound or not??

 

Well, I'm running an older Sony 40wX4 to my Pioneer 4x6's and my Kenwood 4" components. The components have their own crossovers, but I'm also using another crossover to further filter the signal. My Highs and Mids sound great thanks to the double crossover. They are very crystal clear, and sound awesome with the tops off. I could just listen to my system with the subwoofer disconnected and be just as happy.

My two cents, if your amp doesn't have a good crossover, get one! They are fairly cheap, and they work great!

 

Turn the bass as far down as you possibly can on the head unit. Let the subs take care of all bass. My car still has all 4 factory speakers and i just turn the bass all the way down, and let my MTX Thunder 6000's and 1200 watt amp take care of the bass...the Factory speakrs have no distortiion unless i turn it up beyond oblivion.
If you put an amp on the factory's, make sure it has a high pass crossover on it, turn that on, and it will sound VERY good.
My 2 cents

 

i forgot to mention my car is an 84..those are old speakers and they still sound good

 

Short version: If you turn it up louder than what the head unit can handle, then yes... the amp will allow you to get clear, less distorted output at those higher volumes. If you never turn it up to the point where the music starts to sound fugly (i.e. you always listen to it at low volumes), you won't benefit from an amp.

if all you have is 4 speakers (no subwoofer), and you listen to it louder than your grandmother, chances are you can benefit from an amp. If you have a sub and the other speakers are running high-pass, and you won't want it wicked loud, the deck is probably fine.

Even shorter version: If it starts to get sh*tty sounding before you get it as loud as you want, buy an amp.

 

My turn for my $.02

Ok, I don't know jack or sh*t about the THD's and Clips and pink elephants or what not, but, I did make some important observations about how your speakers sit in the car and how it effects your sound system. I'm going to assume that you do not own a convertable, so you have the 6x9's in the back. I don't know why, but when GM put those speakers back there, there is a small opening at the bottom of the hole, causing the speakers to not be COMPLETELY sealed. You can see what I mean if you take your inside side panels off and look at the bottom of the 6x9. I thought maybe something was just wrong with my car but after looking at 4-5 others and talking to some other people it seems that its supposed to be that way. Well, because of this, no matter what speakers are back there, the head unit really can't make speakers move as much as they are capable of, especially if they aren't in a completely sealed enclosure. Right now I have a set of Polk Audio 6x9's that sound great, but had some problems at slightly higher volume. Just didn't seem like they were working quite like they should. Thats when I discovered that hole. After amping them, at both higher AND LOWER volumes, it was a completely diff. sound system. So yeah, get yourself an amp and stick it on there. There is a very small possibility that I am wrong and those other 10 some cars are COMPLETE coincidence, but I'm for the most part rather sure of myself. You'll be glad you did. You get get 4 channel amps really cheap, especially if you aren't powering too powerful of speakers. I agree with whomever about the subs, you can't have an absolutley clear/well rounded system without the proper support group in the back

 

i hate to break this to you, but mids and highs do not need sealed enclosures.


adam

 

Yeah, I know they don't, like I said, my polk's still sounded great even before I amped them, BUT, even a mid can benifit from a sealed box, especially a 6x9. When it is completely sealed it gives a much better bass response, giving better sound quality. As I've already admitted to, I'm by far not the guru on sound E.Q., you probly know WAY more about the subject than me, all I want is good quality and butt-loads of bass, but on this matter I defntly know whats up. Right now I am working on a way to make the 6x9's in the back sealed off, so I get a little more bass out of them to compliment my 2 10"s, but until then the amp that I stuck on there makes it sound so much better at low AND high volumes. I totally agree with you on the subject.

Bruce

 

they sell boxes to put your 6x9's in at circuit city.

if thats all your trying to do, then there is a simple solution.


adam

 

Yeah, I have a set of those from my last truck that I had, I was thinking about useing those, but I decided that they sounded good enough for now that I can wait till I can make it look stock still.....thanks though!

 

Most 6x9s, 6.5s, and all other full range car speakers are usually designed to operate best in a free-air type of application. Because the majority of the automotive environments that the speakers are in won't be completely sealed, it's tough to design a speaker for a sealed enclosure. That's not to say that a speaker can't sound better in a sealed enclosure, but in most cases it needs to be pretty large, otherwise the Q of the speaker will be high enough that you'll get boomy midbass and a loss of lower bass frequencies. In most cases, your best sound will come from simply ensuring that the rear sound wave is isolated from the front wave. In the case of the 6x9s, that's best handled by making sure the mounting plate that the 6x9s mount to is sealed to the sheet metal.

 

Ya, I think this is one of those circular arguments. But back to the question at hand, like Jim85IROC said, If your not listening to it that loud the HU would be fine. But I personally would add the amp if I wanted the best quality sound. These cars tend not to be that quiet. I personally listen to the radio louder in the Camaro because the car is so noisy and I know that it would sound better with an amp.

 

LOL yeah, I would have to agree with that remark...especially if you have a V8...

Yeah, I can understand what you are saying, a friend of mine has some mid-quality Pioneer 6x9's that he got on clearance to put in his truck and I gave him my 6x9 boxes and they don't sound all that great...sounded better when we were testing out wireing and just plugged em' in really quick, but my Polk Audio speakers (don't know the model # off hand) are really high quality and being sealed makes all the diff in the world. I just didn't like the way it looked with the boxes in my car. I guess when it comes to sealing it up it all depends on the mid...