I just got my subs and amp today and I open the package to find no serial numbers anywhere. The equipment is in original boxes, was stated as new and appears to be new. The locations on the boxes where the numbers should be have a bit of sticky residue on them like there used to be a serial number but was pulled off. The guy I bought them from (sn: nj2enterprise@aol.com) was through an eBay auction... I checked out his history (before I bid) and he had a very good record with customers and he was currently selling several of the same products that I bought. Whats going on here? is this stuff stolen somehow?

EDIT: The amp box was unstapled though and the protective bag was open. I looked for a serial number on the amp but couldn't find one.

------------------
~Luke a.k.a. pianiy
'91 Firebird :: 305/TBI(L03)/700R4/T-tops ::
Mods: Catco high flow cat - B&M Shift kit - TA tail light conversion - K&N - MacEwen white faced guages
Stereo: Pioneer DEH-P8200R - Pioneer 6x9's - Kenwood 8" Tube
'87 Firebird :: LB8/700R4/220K :: R.I.P. ::
Firebird parts - Got an '80 Firebird for sale too
Moderator of tranny board over at TransAmGTA.com

[This message has been edited by pianiy (edited July 16, 2001).]

 

Congratulations. You're the proud owner of stolen merchandise.

------------------
The IROC Homepage
<A HREF="http://www.rit.edu/~jli4307/camaro" TARGET=_blank>
View the restoration of an 85 IROC</A>
"I didn't know a bored out Ford could go so slow" -Shenandoah

 

lol
report to ebay

------------------
Trent
---Car---
89 Firebird
305 L03 TBI A4
t-tops

---Stero---
Pioneer DEH-P730 Premium
Infinity 2way 4652 4x6's
Pioneer 4way ts-a6985 6x9's
2 pioneer 12" ts-w303c subs (selling if anyone wants em email me)

Future:im undecided about amps, and a pioneer cdx-p1270 12 disk cd changer

 

I'm gonna email this guy and find out whats going on... I just checked out his history again and a comment left by his latest customer is complaining that they don't have serial numbers either.

 

Stolen? Probably not. Something fishy? Yes. Manufacturers don't want guys selling there gear on ebay. Some shops can't afford to sell enough equipment to keep the account, so they sell the stuff to guys who sell on ebay. Those guys pull off the serial numbers to ensure that the manufacturers can't trace back who sold them the equipment.

That leaves you in a bind. What kind of warranty do you have? Not much. What kind of recourse do you have? Not much either I'm afraid. The stuff is new in the box, as described, so you really can't do much.

Ebay is a horrible place to try to unload stuff I'm afraid.

Juan

 

I got an email back from him today and apparently, (like was explained to me in another forum I posted this in) he is not an authorized Kicker dealer so he would be in trouble if Kicker ever found out he was selling their equipment. Also stated that if I have a problem with the equipment that I can just send it back to them to be fixed or replaced. Not the greatest deal but for what I paid, probably worth it. Hopefully Kicker makes their amps the way people say they do and I won't have a problem.

------------------
~Luke a.k.a. pianiy
'91 Firebird :: 305/TBI(L03)/700R4/T-tops ::
Mods: Catco cat - B&M Shift kit - TA tail lights - GTA rims - K&N - MacEwen white faced guages
Stereo: Pioneer DEH-P8200R - Pioneer 6x9's - Kenwood 8" Tube
'87 Firebird :: LB8/700R4/220K :: R.I.P. ::
Firebird parts - Got an '80 Firebird for sale too
Moderator of tranny board over at TransAmGTA.com

 

Even the best companies have some duds slip through. I never buy any electronics for more than $100 or so without a warranty.

mike

------------------
custom 3rd gen kickpanels at http://www.lachernet.com/kickpanels

 

I was thinking just what OldOneEye said. It's probably 'gray market' merchindise. The numbers are removed to protect the original dealer, who by reselling to another 'dealer' is probably in breach of contract.

- Mike

 

Actually, grey market is when you buy something (like those european cars that were never avaible here like the 959) that is available overseas but not here (or its cheaper if you buy it straight from Japan than through its subsidiary in the US).

Transhipping is what you are thinking about.

Juan

 

I'm thinking that what OldOneEye said makes the most sense. Personally, I wouldn't really worry about it too much, especially if you got a good price.

Of course, if you really want to bust 'em, you could email the seller...tell him you want to return the products for a full refund, unless he thows a few extra bucks your way.

 

You're probably right. I just remember reading about it somewhere, and they called it grey market.

- Mike

 

All you really need for a warranty claim is a receipt. Original, duplicate, or **doctored**. The serno is really irrelevant unless you send it to the manufacturer. Then all you have to do is act oblivious and make it look like THEY never put one on in the first place.

This is assuming your stuff will break in the first place. If it doesn't, then the whole issue is moot.

------------------
92 Camaro RS, LO3, 5-spd, T-tops

Performance:
K&N Open Air Filter, Edelbrock performer TBI intake, Fastchip Prom, Timing +4 degrees, Centerforce clutch, Xact 8mm wires, SLP 1 3/4" Headers (coated), Flowmaster Catback Exhaust, Z28 Grille w/aftmkt fog lamps, MacEwen white-face guages
Electronics:
Alpine 8030 Alarm System, Valentine One Radar Detector (How did I ever drive without one?), Pioneer DEH 7450 Head Unit w/6-pack CD changer, Pioneer DEQ 7600 Sound Processor, 2 Kenwood KAC-846 Amps powering 2 12" Pro Red subs, 2 Pioneer 6x9 and 2 MTX 4x6 speakers.
NEXT UP: TBI mods, 3.42 gears w/Torsen posi

 

If I were going that route, I wouldn't go with the "Well, its new, so I can wait 4 months to install it and the guy will help me out". So get that **** out of the box, hook it up and make sure it works. If you have to wire your subs to your home reciever and your amp to stock speakers if you have to just to be sure it works. He will probably be able to help you with the first few weeks. After that, you might not have much luck.

Juan

 

We know all of our product leaves with a barcode. We do ask for a copy of the original sales receipt. And when the woofer goes out to a dealer. The computer logs that info. Then if your receipt shows a different dealer, then there will be issues. The receipt should come from the dealer that serial number was assigned too. We never send a product out without a barcode. There are some that are hidden, and the person selling them can't take them off. The visible ones are easy, but there are hidden ones and they would have to distroy the product to do it. But we can when we take them to court for what is called "trans-shipping, or grey market" like mentioned. Dealers will loose their application with Kicker by doing this, and their name will spread to other companies of their habits. Next thing, all they will be carring will be Rockwood and Kenford.

 

Seen warranty and barcode issues worked around quite a few times. Its all about customer service. All that has to be said is something to the tune of "I'll never buy your stuff again" or imply that you are going to pass the word about how lousy you are when it comes to getting a warranty claim and you would be surprised at what it can get you.

I'm not saying it works every time. But I can say the manufacturer's who tend to be less stringent are the ones who get more business

 

Polecat,
YOu bring up an interesting point. Some companies (I won't want to name names) go out of their way to ensure guys like the original poster don't get burned. They pose as customers and go online and buy stuff, and then go after the retailers who transhipped the stuff.

Unfortunately, other companies don't. If I were the sales manager, and all of a sudden we see that French Lick, Indiana suddenly order 60 of the ZR1000 amps, I would start to wonder what is going on. Some guys just take the commision and run.

I'm glad to see that Kicker goes after the dealers who are making it hard for the rest of the retailers who have to try to answer "Well, I can get it online for $200" and you are looking at the price book and the book says "$210" and you are left looking like an idiot.

My only true beef with Kicker has to do with the fact I worked at a Kicker dealer, (hey, we were authorized), they sent me a accomodation program price sheet, and when I went to order they told me it was only valid within a few weeks of KITT (which they never invited us to).

Good luck with a doctored reciept BTW. One of the ways to prevent transhipping is for a large company (like kicker) to buy custom made chips and parts. So if it blows up, you can't just order the part from digikey or some other component place like that. So even if you wanted to get it fixed, you couldn't find anyone but the factory to do it (who is usually the cheapest place anyway nowadays for most amp manufacturers). Factor in that you can't get a service manual, and your doctor reciept (or original from a non-authorized dealer) won't fly too far.

Juan

------------------
1987 Pontiac Trans Am
1994 Nissan Sentra E
1999 Daewoo Leganza

 

True, but we make special notations that we donnot have to cover the product. If a persona can't get a copy of the original receipt, they most likely won't get it covered.If they can prove it was bought ligit, we will cover it.

 

OldOneEye, yea, if we find a dealer that is trans-shipping, we will most likely give a warning. If it happens again, that's it. They are out.We want to make our dealers that we support to be successful and make a decent profit. Some companies will sign up three dealers in one small town.We don't do that.

I found one this last week......

But we have so many dealers, it's hard to see a flucuation in slaes unless you watch all of them.And that would be a full time job that I wouldn't want to do either.

 

Polecat:
You make it sound like you guys are Pioneer or something. I'm sure that once you find the software, its pretty simple to graph out (hey, I can get SPSS for free if I'm a student, and once you crunch the numbers, its pretty easy to figure out I would say). San Diego is one of the biggest cities in teh US, so the dealers should sell lots. French Lick is small, so it sells less. When French Lick sells more than it should, then you can do something.

Another thing is when you make dealers have to sell $10,000 in a year to hold an account. If they buy $3000 in the first 10 months, and then drop 7k in the last two, that would be an indication. If you want someone to find grey marketers, I would volunteer (I've done it before, have some nice t-shirts and accomodation pricing to show for it). Seriously, if Kicker wanted to get rid of it, they could. But transhipping moves boxes. Some try harder than others. Kicker has done pretty well I would imagine. Some have not.

Well, that's it.

Juan

------------------
1987 Pontiac Trans Am
1994 Nissan Sentra E
1999 Daewoo Leganza

 

True. You can watch the dealers sales on a slaes summary in our computer, but it would take awhile to seacr all our dealers, both foreign and domestic. Yea, you can see a dealer who had credit problems in the first quarter, then the last three order $50,000 a month and pay in cash,up front. Now you know something weird is going on.
But you can suspect a dealer, but in court you need hard proof. Some comapnies don't care who gets what from where, as long as it's sold. It's like a wild gras fire. You put out one, there is another right behind you. Never ending.
I guess it's like drug dealers. can you ever get totally rid of the problem?

 

Polecat,
Well, good point. I still think that quite a few people turn the other way.

You want a real policy? Here goes. Lets say I'm Joe Shmoe and bought a zr1000 online. It blows up. You usually tell the guy "Your *****ed, it has no warranty". How about doing this. You tell the guy "We want to build a case against dealer X, so we want your signed deposition, and in exchange, our tech who makes $8.50 an hour will fix your amp". You trace it to "kicker4cheap" on ebay, then you trace that serial number to "autotoys" and you end autotoys' contract. Pure and simple.

Some guys are serious, putting serial numbers in spots you can't get to without destroying the speaker or amp, so its obvious they want to keep it in check.

Notice how often some guys are putting out fires, and how others have spent alot of time and money teaching fire prevention.

Well, enough for now.

Juan

------------------
1987 Pontiac Trans Am
1994 Nissan Sentra E
1999 Daewoo Leganza

 

we take it very seriously, and cut dealers off all the time.

we do that. if a dealer find stuff in his own territory, he buys the stuff, we re-emburse him for the cost,trace the product and cut them off
we do this as well, and trust me, I did one a week or so ago, it works.
Almost all companies now have a transhipping problem. At least if it's good product. there are certain policies that manufacturers have. And if a dealer cannot abide by them, he will loose the line. And if he doesn't mind, we don't mind taking the line away.
Cunsumers are told about our online policy. So they know when they buy from an un-authorized dealer, they are putting their warranty in jeapordy. Because getting a receipt from an authorized dealer would be hard to do, if in fact, you bought it un-authorized. And the consumer may have to pay for it to be repaired.




[This message has been edited by Polecat (edited July 27, 2001).]

 

Hey Polecat,

I think Grizz Archer (formerly of MTX) put it best.
"We (MTX) are out to prevent the whoreing of our product."

Good to see Kicker/Stillwater doing the same.

BTW I still have my old school C-10 inside the house as part of a home theater setup. It just keeps going......

------------------
86 T/A 5.0 A4 & 2.77 gear
15.62 @ 86 mph
93 Civic 1.6L
13.5 @ 100 mph

[This message has been edited by Mista (edited July 27, 2001).]

 

This whole topic is a joke! Don't you people see that what is going on is nothing more than price fixing, and the attempt to stop competition. Why should'nt companies stand behind a product, whether it was bought from an authorized dealer or from anyone else, as long as it is presented for repair within a reasonable time from it's manufacture date. Is it not the same quality product? Was'nt the manufacture paid what it asked at the time of sale to dealers? Why are consumers being penalized for trying to save money, and dealers threatened for trying to make money and move more product. If you want your products to sell for a fixed price than why don't you sell them directly to consumers and cut out the middle man all together. Instead of "authorized dealers", have "authorized installers" and offer some sort of extended warranty for using them. I have a question; If all of your dealers pay the same price for a product, how can someone sell for below their cost and still stay in buisiness? If however, dealers pay different amounts based on the quantity they purchase, why can't they pass that savings on to the consumer if they choose. The car audio field is a tough enough business to win in, why make it harder by angering and threatining consumers.I want to make it clear that I am not talking about the sale of stolen, refurbished, or products intended for markets other than the U.S. Would you be just as bent out of shape if an authorized dealer decided to sell products for 5 dollars over cost, instead of the artificial floor that you create, but does it out their store front instead of on-line. It seems that some companies have forgotten the terms "FREE MARKET", "COMPETITION", and "SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST".

 

So I guess your going to Toyota to buy your next new GM vehicle?
Might save $100!

------------------
86 T/A 5.0 A4 & 2.77 gear
15.62 @ 86 mph
93 Civic 1.6L
13.5 @ 100 mph

 

Most good manufacturers are out to help good dealers make a living. that's the GNP. Remember that is class. Everything you buy has an added cost. from the gasoline you put in your car to the toilet paper you wipe with. Can you get all that below cost? Sure, cheaper at one store over another, but not 5% over what they make it at. The bad dealers are the ones laughing at the consumers. i have seen and met these guys and they do laugh at you. Seriously. Why? they buy product from an un-authorized dealer, and sell it to you for say $5.00 over their cost. They pocket the $10 for the pair of woofers in their pockets and really don't have to warranty your product. After the sell, they can say, "Sorry, per Kikcer or whomever, you don't have warranty", and you are out of the money. Not them. If you buy a new car, you pay $21,000 for it, and get "X" amountof warranty built into that price. Believe it or not, it's true. And you want a longer warranty, you pay for it. Don't want any warranty, uyea, it could save you money. Would you rather have a man in a gagrge standing behind your warranty issues or the manufacture? Me, I perosnally will stick with the big companies over the garage guys.

If you don't want to pay the higher prices of anything, better start like Little House on the Praire and grab a horse over gasoline and a leaf over TP, because life will hurt.

That's just the way things are in this industry, as well as almost all others.


[This message has been edited by Polecat (edited July 29, 2001).]

 

Companies like Kicker has built a reputation of making a solid product. They didn't get that warranty by selling products off ebay. The high end car audio industry supports their dealers with training, sales material, and tech support, while the dealers, in turn, support the customer by providing expert advise, system tuning, and the ability to listen to different setups.

What really peaves me is when someone goes into a shop, takes an hour or more of the salesperson's time, getting advice, suggestions, trying out the product, only to leave the store and buy it all online.

When you buy a caddilac or a lexus, you expect a certain level of customer service, before, during, and after the sale. More so then you would expect from a Kia dealer. When I purchase hi-end car audio, I expect the same level of service, and the online buys just can't do it.

Call up thezeb.com and ask them to come take a listen to your car and tell you what product would best bring out the mid bass you may be lacking..


mike

------------------
custom 3rd gen kickpanels at http://www.lachernet.com/kickpanels

 

Using car companies as an example is a poor choice. GM does not mandate a base selling price, the market does! Have you ever gone to purchase a new car and haggled the price, sometime you get the sticker price; sometimes you get some money off; sometimes you get it below invoice. The dealer chooses what to sell it for, not GM. No matter what you pay you get the MANUFACTURERS warranty. When and if that car is resold, it is still covered no matter what the resale price. GM is covering the quality of it's product,not whether or not you paid enough for it. My simple question has not been answered, if KICKER builds a product and sells it for what it wants, then a reseller sells it for what he wants and however he wants, then why should'nt the product be warranteed. If you want to set some artificial floor price and the dealer violates it, then go after the dealer and not the consumer. SONY and PIONEER are two companies that are much, much larger than KICKER, and have their products sold in many different ways, and have never given me a problem with warranty service no matter where I purchased the product legitimately. Again I am not talking about stolen or products not intended for the US market. If you fly to Germany and purchase a new 'Benz, then bring it here to the US and it needs service, you take it to any 'Benz dealer and you are covered. Did you save money by buying it over there? YES! Is it still a fully warranteed product? YES! When GM started SATURN, and instituted a pay one price policy, did it work? NO! SATURN has been a losing division for GM, and it's strict pay one price policy is'nt so strict any more. You also did'nt answer my other question, if all dealers are paying the same price for the product, how can some sell for below cost and still stay in business? If however, dealers pay different prices, then why can't they sell for what they want? If I don't want or need the dealers assistance, and just want to pay for the product, why should I be penalized. This is why I do'nt purchase artificially high priced products, when there are equal if not better quality products out there without all the bull that some companies try to push on consumers.

 

If a TOYOTA dealer sold brand new first quality GM products, you bet your *** I would save some money by purchasing from them. Have'nt you ever heard of multi-line dealers? Would'nt that money feel better in your pocket than in the dealers? When you go to buy a car do you just pay sticker? Oh, and by the way, that car would be FULLY WARRANTEED!

 

If KICKER has a reputation for making quality products, what difference does it make where it is sold? Does the mere fact that that it is sold from a brick and mortar make it a better product than if it is sold on-line? If I need or want all of the help that a dealer can offer, than that is the right place to buy the product, But what if I do'nt need all of their help? What if all I want is the product, why must I be threatened with either paying a high price or getting no warranty by buying a new, unused, legal product for less? Since there are so many of you out there who are willing to spend more money than you need to, I have an offer for you; I have been a self-employed, and very successful, carpenter for the past 15 years, and I would be happy to build any type of audio enclosure for your home or auto, at a hefty premium of course. I will, however, only warranty those enclosures that sell for 10% above the negotiated price.I have to protect my good name, who knows what you'll do or who you'll sell it to once you get it. LOL!

 

POLECAT,I have some doubt that you actually work for KICKER. What exactly do you do there?

 

EDIT

changed my mind. decided not to post (it'd just add to the confusion)

[This message has been edited by Justins86bird (edited July 29, 2001).]

 

odin65, I am the Distribution Director. in charge of all shipments both foreign and domestic. I've been here as long as you've been a carpenter.

Buy the way, build me a house for $30,000? I know it sells for $85,000, but ya know the markup of stuff bothers me too.

If you don't want to pay the dealers prices on our stuff, who is holding a gun to your head telling you too? If you like the idea that Pioneer and Sony do, by all means buy their product.
But it was stated earlier, we do have to support alot of financial incentives that we share with our dealers. Like technical trainings,seminars,dealer incentives,warranty,trade-ins,etc.

If you still have your doubts, you can call me at (405) 624-8510 and ask the receiptionist if Tracy Focht works here.
#7 out of 180 in senority.

 

Can I share a story with everyone?

When I was 17, I worked for Fat Larry and Skinny Larry at this little corner store. Like all little corner stores, they had a little freezer where customers could buy 5-pound bags of ice.

The bags if ice retailed for $1.25. Larry had two suppliers to choose from...one charged .51 per bag; the other charged .55. In either case, the supplier made the ice, bagged it, delivered it, supplied the freezer unit and everything. All Fat Larry had to do was pay the electricity for the freezer, pay rent for the 10 or so square feet it occupied, and sit and watch his fat belly get fatter.

So I'm looking at the situation from a 17-year old's perspective. I'm thinking: "Hmm. What should I choose for a career? Should I start up my own ice company, or open up a convenience store?"

It's sad in this country that the people who sell stuff often make more money than the people who make it in the first place.

Granted, buying car audio is not as simple as buying ice. Customers want to listen to it, they want to ask a lot of questions about what to buy, they want to have it installed, they want someone to be around when it breaks, et cetera. All of that service definitely costs money, and obviously, it is built into the price of the product.

Like odin said, price fixing is unethical, and it benefits everyone involved except the end consumer.

I am not saying retailers are getting rich...the Best Buy I used to work at actually lost money last fiscal year.

I'm the type of consumer who does my homework before I shop. I don't need to spend an hour with a salesperson, and I'm not stupid enough to blow out my speakers and bring them back every week. And this has nothing to do with car stereo...I do this with nearly anything I buy.

Most of the "services" and "benefits" that retailers provide are of little to no value to me. In fact, I usually find them to be more of a hindrance than anything. Paying some lardass 74 cents extra just so I can get a bag of ice is sickening.

Yes, companies like Kicker are keeping their dealers happy, making sure their customers get excellent service. And there is enough profit to support seminars and stuff like that. And I know that when you sell car audio to someone without having a salesman qualify them, your return rate goes up like crazy. People buy stuff that doesn't fit, or they try to install it themselves and break it, stuff like that. But I'm sick of those idiots forcing me to pay more for my stuff.

 

I don't think anyone is forcing anyone to buy it at higher prices. Just like the old saying, "You get what you pay for."
Pay the cheaper route, loose some of the benefits.

 

I could write a good term paper with the economic type of arguments being posted.

From a business standpoint, I feel for ya Polecat. Problem here is everyone else is a consumer.

After reading your posts I can assure you that I will probably NEVER buy any Kicker products regardless of how good they are, or how much training and technical expertise your reps have. (Kinda reminds me of the idiot at the local tire shop here wasting my time trying to sell me ZR rated tires when my SPEEDO, let alone the posted speed limit signs, don't hit 140+mph.) The truth is, about 90% of the people who buy car audio just want better sound than stock. And they are going to look for the best deal. The other 10% are probably into competition, so theres your target market....
have at it.

You are absolutely right about not being forced to buy any product. BUT...continue to be "strict" on company policy, you will lose customers. Lose customers, lose business. Next thing you know your seniority is now #7 out of FIVE.

------------------
92 Camaro RS, LO3, 5-spd, T-tops

Performance:
K&N Open Air Filter, Edelbrock performer TBI intake, Fastchip Prom, Timing +4 degrees, Centerforce clutch, Xact 8mm wires, SLP 1 3/4" Headers (coated), Flowmaster Catback Exhaust, Z28 Grille w/aftmkt fog lamps, MacEwen white-face guages
Electronics:
Alpine 8030 Alarm System, Valentine One Radar Detector (How did I ever drive without one?), Pioneer DEH 7450 Head Unit w/6-pack CD changer, Pioneer DEQ 7600 Sound Processor, 2 Kenwood KAC-846 Amps powering 2 12" Pro Red subs, 2 Pioneer 6x9 and 2 MTX 4x6 speakers.
NEXT UP: TBI mods, 3.42 gears w/Torsen posi

 

Man, this arguement sucks. Having been involved in the car audio business as a consumer as well as a salesman.

First off, price fixing is against the law. None of the car audio manufacturers price fix. What they can do legally is control Minumum Advertised Price (MAP). Dealers can sell equipment at ANY price they would like. Hell, if a dealer wanted to sell ZR1000s for $1, he could do it. He wouldn't get reimbursed by Kicker for the advertin (more on that later), but there isn't much they can do. They can control where he sells it to (hell, there are laws on the books that inhibited free market so much that Honda created Acura, Toyota created Lexus and Nissan created Infiniti to get around). How do they do that? Well, you know all those ads you see in the phone book with the kicker logo? Kicker gives them money back for those co-oped advertising expenses. But only if they abide by the MAP.

But why don't they allow internet companies to be authorized? In fact, they do. Crutchfield has MTX and Kicker to name just a few (those two companies have limited who gets their gear, so that's why I use them). But they charge close to full pop. What are you getting? Some guy who was trained to know the product so you know what to do when you can't figure out to hook it up.

Why? Unlike a car, car audio equipment isn't the easiest stuff to put in many cases. It is a pretty common occurance when a person decides to put something in, can't get it to work (or blows it up) and the manufacturer gets it back and it either works, or was hooked up wrong. This consumes alot of time and money for alot of companies.

So they have pushed for authorized dealers to install equipment. Some of them have gone to great lengths to get the stuff hooked up by a dealer, going as far as increasing the warranty by a margin of 10. They also have gone through great lengths to train dealers on how to install the equipment, how to sell it, etc.

That's what you the consumer are paying for. You are paying for the advertising. You are paying for training for the dealers to know how to put it in so it doesn't blow up. You are paying for technical support for the dealer. You are paying for over the counter exchanges in some cases.

I'm sure Polecat can show you pictures of abused equipment from people who have no clue what they are doing. Hell, even cars have conditions on the warranty. Abuse it and it breaks, and no warranty.

Pukka, as far as the tires, you should know better than that. Z rated tires usually are better for a number of reasons. Hell, if we are using the tire analogy, if you bought some wilderness ATs from firestone, did a cash and carry, took them home, put them on your car and didn't balance them or anything else and they failed, do you expect to have the warranty honored?

Juan

------------------
1987 Pontiac Trans Am
1994 Nissan Sentra E
1999 Daewoo Leganza

 

I have no fears, trust me. People who want a great system, and to have a manufacture back them, will indeed "get what you pay for". We do nothave "strict" guidelines. if you take the time, and instead of jumping in and bsuting out, go back and re-read my post, and our policies, we "Reserve the right not to warranty items bought from an un-authorized dealer." Does that sound strict? No. It say's we RESERVE the right not to. Do we do it? yes. we do cover stuff daily that is bought from someone. But if you feel more comfortable buying from a guy on the internet in his garage, go ahead. Buy the way, where did you get all your gear? when you have a problem, do you take it back to them in hopes they will take care of you?

Look at it this way, Kicker along with MTX, Rockford,Alpine,most do not allow internet selling other than Crutchfield or their chosen selling partner.they have been in business for 20+ years, will the Joe Shmo be in business to take care of you next year, or next month, or next week? Who knows. Do you wanna take the chance?That's up to you.

There is no price fixing, whomever stated that obviuosly doesn't know the industry. Companies set margins for the minimum and maximum guidelines to re-sale their products at. Almost all items are that way. But we are picking out the one in a .00000000001% things being sold each day to argue about.

If anyone on this board that actually knows me, or on other websites knows I am there to stand behind a consumer. As I am a consumer. I do what I say and take care of a person who is in warranty needs if they warrant it.

If a person buys an amp off ebay from a used individual, and it has long been out of warranty. The persona can still send the item in to be fixed, and a 70% savings and when he pays for that, guess what, he get's another year warranty. Find many companies that do that? I wished GM would do that.

Do you think if a company sells a woofer for $40 to a dealer, he pockets all that $40?I bet maybe $4-5.If that.....so consider all invested cost.

This will be my last post about this, and if you feel that you can get coverage on another speaker line, or buying off line and are willing to take the chance,your more than welcome too.
But if you are in a industry like this and many others, you know there are min-max selling range on almost everything.

And large companies like the ones mentioned have been doing this for a long,long time. And it's not price fixing.

After 13 years of doing this, our company has grown from 13 employees to close to 200 and growing, and new products are always being released to keep the innovation going.

You as a consumer have the right to buy what you like,where you like,and when you like.

No hard feelings to anyone.

 

First of all, I had doubts because your last posts were incoherent enough to make me believe that it might be someone younger posing as a KICKER employee. Secondly, I never suggested that you should'nt charge whatever you want for your products. Only that you warranty your product where ever it was purchased. Thirdly, I am quite sure that you have many costs to incur, and unless you derive some sort commission from the sale by dealers to consumers, they should be built into the product cost to the dealers. Fourthly, I do'nt purchase KICKER products because I do'nt like them, not because of the cost. Lastly, I do'nt know about Stillwater, but here in Westchester $85,000 won't buy you an apartment, let alone a house!

 

Yes price fixing is illegal. However when a manufacturer institutes a minimum price and an acceptable place for that sale to take place, then penalizes the end user when the dealer violates the agreement, it is tantamount to fixing. When manufacturers use fear to dictate a price structure, it is worse than fixing. You do'nt honestly believe that Honda, Toyota, and Nissan created high end divisions to get around some sort of "free market" constraint, do you? These divisions were created to compete against the hot european imports from BMW and Mercedes. I am tired of hearing about all of the expenses that manufacturers incur, these are factored into the cost of the product to the dealer. If I abuse or mis-use a product it should not be warranteed, nomatter where I bought it. I also want to say that I have seen many pro installed components that were extremely unprofessional to say the least. In conclusion, I am not concerned with the cost of products to either the dealer or the consumer. What concerns me is the fact that some manufacturers are trying to limit competition by dictating where and for how much their product is sold. Why is it alright for Crutchfield to sell on line for full price, but other dealers have to hide
when they sell the same product at a discount? This makes me laugh because when more product is sold, the manufacturer makes more money; and when more is sold on-line, fewer pamphlets and point-of-sale advertising is needed so the manufacturer saves even more money!

 

One reason companys choose Crutchfield, SERVICE! Their people know the ins and outs, what works and what doesn't.

I also like their return policy. I bought XTC baffles that I could not use. I returned them at their expense and they credited my CC for the full sale amount.

You can pay a little extra now, or pay less and HOPE nothing every happens.

Cold solder joint on the sub? It happens!

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86 T/A 5.0 A4 & 2.77 gear
15.62 @ 86 mph
93 Civic 1.6L
13.5 @ 100 mph

 

Good god, look at that markup!!!!!!!!!!

 

[quote]<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Polecat:

Quote:

Originally posted by odin65:
Lastly, I do'nt know about Stillwater, but here in Westchester $85,000 won't buy you an QUOTE]apartment, let alone a house![/
Good god, look at that markup!!!!!!!!!!

Yes I know, but it's the market that determines the price, not the builder!

 

So dirt is better there......hmmmmm.

Supply and demand.

 

Ok, this is my thread and I've decided that its gotten considerably off original topic, therefore, since my issue has been long resolved and I'm not benefitting from this except coming home to find that I've got 10!! or whatever new emails from thirdgen.org, please stop posting!! or I'll just have one of the admins lock the thread... thanks to anybody who gave me beneficial advice!

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~Luke a.k.a. pianiy
'91 Firebird :: 305/TBI/700R4 ::
Mods: Catco cat - B&M Shift kit - TA tail lights - GTA rims - K&N - MacEwen guages
Stereo: Pioneer DEH-P8200R - Pioneer 6x9's - Kenwood 8" Tube
::R.I.P.::'87 Firebird - Firebird parts - Selling an '80 Firebird for a friend
Moderator of tranny board over at TransAmGTA.com

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Polecat:
[B]So dirt is better there......hmmmmm.

I do'nt know what that is supposed to mean.

 

Odin,
I like how you quote me, but then say something completely different.

A manufacturer can control who they sell to. No different than just about any other consumer product for the most part.

A manufacturer doesn't have to use fear to dictate a minumum price anyway (remember, that is against the law, they can only dictate if they get back cooped advertising expenses). If I own a shop, I have to have insurance, utilities, salary, and lots of other overhead to worry about. I could sell kicker at any price I want as long as I don't expect to get reimbursed for advertising. Hell, if I wanted to give them away to the homeless, they really couldn't do much, as the contracts are pretty well worded to avoid getting sued for price fixing. On the other hand, the guy on Ebay might just be a guy with a warehouse, a kid filling orders and another taking care of processing orders and answering email. Not much overhead to that. But if he decides he wants to sell beenie babies the next day and leave car audio, you might be screwed. You should realize that is the price you pay.

As far as Lexus, Acura, and Infiniti, they really had no need to do that at all. In Europe, they didn't have to bother. You get a Honda NSX, and a Nissan Q45 (and they still compete with the Mercedes and BMW). In Japan, they compete as well. They did it because they are limited on how close they can place the dealerships geographically. So like Ford with its Lincoln-Mercury and Merkur for a while, they create seperate division. The product itself had been around already, just a different name.

As tired as you are of hearing it, manufacturers pay for repairs, not retailers (granted if the guy in the warranty department says "lets not factor in for abused equipment that we fix as a courtesy" then the numbers might be way off".

Crutchfield has agreements much like Best Buy has with Rockford to charge full price to protect the other local dealers. If Crutchfield had a sale on Kicker, the local Kicker dealer might remember that come contract time to go with Phoenix Gold instead for all the guys who came in screaming "I can get it online for less". So to satisfy the local dealer in French Lick, Indiana, they charge full price and protect the local dealer. The other dealers have to hide because they signed a legally binding agreement saying they wouldn't sell it online. Pretty simple.

As far as more sales being better, that isn't always the case. A few years back, MTX made the mistake of letting anyone sell its products. Well, when it decided to go and sell better products, people had the perception its a "swapmeet" brand. Took them years to get over that image. If you sell stuff cheap enough and long enough online, people will expect a discount all the time and not percieve it as a quality brand anymore. One of the reasons we don't see too many $.99 Big Macs and Whoppers, and more of the Big & (un)Tasty and Whopper Jr.s or Double Cheese burgers instead. Nissan has been discounting its cars so long that people now expect to pay $1000 less then a comparable Toyota or Honda.

Juan



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1987 Pontiac Trans Am
1994 Nissan Sentra E
1999 Daewoo Leganza

 

[quote]<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by odin65:

Quote:

I do'nt know what that is supposed to mean.

Just that cost of living is higher, no bad interntions towards that.

But my father is a contractor, doing framing of houses for umpteen years. What is the going rate, per square footage for a house in NY? I bet it's at least double the cost of here. Yes, population dictates that. But is it a better grade of 2x4? or better sheetrock, thicker paint? No, it's the same stuff. But I bet that a 2x4 here that cost $1.08 each, they are $3.00 or more there...why is that? People up there are making more per square footage than builders here. Correct? If so, should that be illegal? It's basically the same thing, other than some consumer products are sold worldwide.
OneEye is very,very,very valid in almost all his statements. There is sooooo much overhead, that dealers and us,a manufacture that has to pay for. Same as a building contractor. Could he make more if he didn't have to pay higher wages,or insurance, or disability insurance. Sure, but he always has to add in his factor to the price he quotes someone to build something.
And you, or me, as the consumer either have to pay it, or build it ourselves.

So to sum it up, we both have our valid points. Me as representing a manufacture,and you as a consumer. Remember, don't be mad at me,or Kicker, because in the end, we all are consumers.



[This message has been edited by Polecat (edited August 01, 2001).]

 

Topic being closed at request of original poster pianiy.