Ok, so the car is an 87 Camaro SC. Its got an LG4 (Vin H), which, by my research, came with a CCC Q-jet system. When I bought it, it had another Q jet from a let 70's truck (I don't have the number with me but its not important) and a vacuum advance distributor on it. All of the connectors to the ECU are still there (and so is the ECU itself) so I know its going to be plug and play for the most part, but I am converting it back to the way the General made it with full ECU functions and most (if not all) emissions components still intact.

Alright - so my question is, how do I know what carb and distributor to look for? I know I need a CCC Q-jet (E4ME?) and an electronic controlled distributor - but i don't know if there are different part numbers for different years/models. For example, I found a CCC carb from an 86 Monte, would that work? Please post back if you need more info on the car I may have left some things out.

Thanks a bunch!

 

Yes the MC carb will work. May even be the same part # as a F-body one.

There's not alot of difference among the CC Q-Jets, as long as they're for the same brand of motor. One for an Olds 307 for example would be a PITA to install.

Distributor shouldn't matter, since it doesn't do any of the timing calibration type things anyway. All it does is trigger the ECM and switch the spark to the right plug. Much dumber than they are in a non-CC setup.

 

Thanks for the response. Ok so I get it with the carb, but for the distributor I don't think the one I have is correct because it has a vacuum modulator for the timing advance and I was told that originally it should be ECM controlled.

 

The ECM contols the timing advance of the distributor.

Yes, you need a CCC distributor. As long as it's from a Chevy, it doesn't really matter what year unless I'm missing something and Chevy changed some of their later CCC engine designs ( and I don't think they did ).

 

Awesome thanks for helping clear all this up

 

Bringing this one back from the dead I picked up an 02 Z28 6 speed so I've been driving that for a while... now that Chicago winter is upon us I want to get back into fixing up this 87 beater for winter. Is there a way to know if i need a large or small cap distributor? Or remote/integral coil?

 

you can run either but you will need to make or buy a adapter. why would you go back to the junk ccc.

 

Ignore that response.

87's had the small cap distributor with separate coil. If the original harness is still there, you should look for that type (and it sounds like the original harness is still intact). Both the coil and distributor are available from the aftermarket if you can't find used ones.

 

The LG4 dist is available reman at most of the chains and should come with an ignition control module for under $100. You'll have to purchase the cap/rotor and coil separately. I wouldn't go for a used small cap dist. They have some issues with 'disintegration' of the pieces under the rotor.

The large cap dist had an ICM with a different number of pins (and different, spade connectors). To my knowledge the added pin on the small cap ICM was a dedicated ground.

 

both are 4 pin connectors to the distributor for the high/ low ecm reference.

 

Context please, sorry, your point?

 

Because a properly running CC system outperforms non-CC in pretty much every way, shape, and form for a daily driver/non performance car. If your afraid of computers thats fine, but I'm sure not.

Ok thanks a lot. I went on Oreillys website and it says the small cap is for Canadian cars, large cap is for American. I'll still probably pick up a small cap since I feel like my air cleaner won't fit with a big one (it doesn't clear the accel large cap thats on the car now anyways...). One more question, where is the factory mounting point for the coil? I see a bracket on the right side of the intake manifold but I thought that was for the EGR solenoid (another part I need to source out...). Thanks again, the kid that had this car before me must have just opened the hood and started ripping things out.. He even CUT OUT the A/C compressor... Why some people think they belong under a hood is beyond me....

 

Best one I can get now:



The coil mounts with two brackets that are riveted onto the factory coil and drilled out/bolted to a replacement. I can get a better pic tomorrow if you still need it.

The small cap dist uses completely different connectors for the ICM. It's the eight pin shown somewhere here:

http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/GM_7pinHEI.htm

 

Dude you are the frigging MAN. I was looking all over google for a shot like that thank you!!! If you could get that other pic I would greatly appreciate it. Solid factory pictures seem to be getting more and more scarse these days since everyone mods their third gen. Also it looks like the distributor/ICM pins are facing the drivers side, correct?

Edit: What is the vacuum hose thats disconnected behind the EGR valve, mine has the same one hanging and on mine its not the HVAC since thats connected already.

 

The ICM pins should be facing the rear. The dist base has a squared flange there that extends a hair from the radius.

The small, hard vacuum line is for the VAC sensor. It connects to the rear port on the carb. You'll need it connected for the ccc-qjet but it's not doing anything now. The line runs through the ECM loom to the sensor on the driver's side firewall.

That was an '87 Z that I had to re-build the harness on. It had been pretty effectively chopped up. I'll get more pics for you tonight or tomorrow of my other 87 (that one's gone).

 

'87 American was small cap. '82-'86 was large cap.

 

Awesome guys thanks a lot. I do work at a dealer as an apprentice but their info on 80s cars is stupid vague. I still need to find a CCC carb and one of the older techs here is gonna give me a hand with the rebuild. I want to find some TPI exhaust manifolds too but I think I'll just drill an o2 bung in one of these Heddmans that are on the car for now, although I do want to restore my EGR function so the headers have to go at some point.

 

I recently rebuilt mine. I have some pictures here:

http://s164.photobucket.com/albums/u...05/1984%20Z28/

that may be able to help you out.

 

Headers and EGR don't have anything to do with each other. The EGR gets the exhaust gases from the crossover passage in the center of the heads and intake manifold.

A.I.R. - that's different.

 

Sorry I'm late. My 87 has a vortec performer intake so the mounting may be slightly different. One of the brackets goes on the same boss as the throttle mount and I had to modify my mount slightly.






Five7 can rest assured his dual snorkel is being put to good use...



Current project: 84 Berli, all day today to work on it!

 

Good shtuff dude! Thanks a lot I've been waiting to find a shot like that for a while now...

Understandable, but don't you need the headers to have an open port to the heads? I don't believe mine do. I could just be thinking of EFE.... So that means there is a passage from the exhaust section of the heads/head to the intake? That'd be nice maybe I won't have to swap headers after all... I realize this thread took a turn, but should my 87 have an EGR solenoid or just a vacuum hose to the valve?

 

I see you haven't changed the duct tape...

 

The latter part. The center two exhaust ports are joined by a port built into the head that goes to the intake side of the head, between the center two intake ports. The EFE valve closes off the exhaust flow on the passenger side exhaust manifold so the exhaust flow has to go through that crossover passage, through a passage in the intake manifold under the plenum, and out the driver side head. The EGR valve sits in the crossover passage on the passenger side of the intake manifold. When the EGR valve opens, it sucks exhaust gases out of the crossover passage and into the air/fuel stream. You don't need the EFE valve for the EGR to work (in fact, the EGR valve won't be opening until after the EFE valve is opened up).

It should have an EGR solenoid.

 

Thanks for all the input everyone I can't wait to get this thing running properly!

 

I have a E4ME CC Quadrajet that I may be interested in selling. It was working ok when I took it off. Came off an 84 Camaro Z28 305 H.O. May also have the EGR valve. Let me know if you are interested.

 

I'm finally looking to buy a used carb to rebuild, can anyone chime in as to if his 84 carb will work with my 87 car? I don't want to be plugging any vacuum ports or anything like that. Ill also be picking up a distributor, egr solenoid, 02 sensor, etc - but I just wanna get the carb in my hands to get it rebuilt and ready to install. Thanks!

 

Camaro305SB:
Tried to message you back --- when replying to your PM, it said you don't receive PM's per Thirdgen.org. You can send me a number to call you by PM if you like and I'll call you when I can. Thanks.

 

An 84 carb will work fine on an 87. The only issue I've noticed is that some carbs have an extra vacuum fitting on the base. Later carbs used it for the EVAP line. Earlier models tied this EVAP line into the PCV line. Shouldn't be any functional difference. If you need the port and don't have it, use a tee into the PCV. Plug the port if you don't have anything to connect to it.

 

I still had all the defaults set and didn't realize it, my apologies. Should be good to go now if you want to resend the PM.

Awesome thanks.

 

Here's a pic of the actual carb when it was on the car

 

Little bit of an update, I finally rebuilt an 84 E4ME (sorry Welton yours was in too good of shape for me ) and installed it a little more than a month ago and it ran great right off the rebuild, pretty much no adjustments needed after it was put on (haven't adjusted dwell though since I still dont have an 02 sensor installed). The problem I'm having is the car seems to want to stick on the last part of the fast idle cam. It kicks down fine, but as soon as I start moving and come to a stop again it hangs a few hundered RPM too high.

Now, I didn't have a choke angle gauge, so I just set the choke up so it ran good when cold (Chicago winter cold). I've moved the cover around a little bit, but it doesn't seem to help. I can also manually kick it down by depressing the tab on the right side of the carb near the choke linkage... Does it sound like my thermostat/cover is bad? Its got 12v but could it be keeping the car from coming down to idle once warm? I cleaned all the linkage well and anything teflon was just wiped down not scuffed up.

 

You've got to have an O2 sensor before it will run properly.

If the choke doesn't open up completely after about 5 minutes of running, and it's getting 12 volts, the choke thermostat is probably bad.

 

If it is hanging up on the fast idle cam (and not just sticking), try spraying everything down with carb cleaner. Make sure the choke is 90 degrees straight up when warm. The fast idle cam shouldn't be able to engage with the choke blades straight up. If it is, check the linkage and try to clean it. Those 'green' pieces are coated in teflon to help them move freely.

 

I don't think it does, but does me kicking the idle down have anything to do with the choke opening or closing? Just trying to rule out any variables. I know I gotta get a bung welded in I have some heddman midlengths on it now and I would like to get some HO manifolds but its not on my priorities at the moment. Anyone know where I can get a choke thermostat for less than 60 bucks? Thats my cost at the dealer (10% over cost). Preferably something without the words "universal" on the box.

 

Kicking it down should not affect the choke blade in any way. If you look at the linkage you'll see a piece with a weight on the end of it. It holds the fast idle cam in place by friction (static) until the throttle action lifts it off and allows the weighted end to fall (when the choke is open, of course).

 

Gotcha, that makes sense. Yea when I did the rebuild I was 110% positive that the linkage fell with gravity when the throttle was tipped open. The tech I was working with used to do nothing but rebuild Qjets but we've been so busy lately I'm kinda trying to get this figured out on my "own".

 

Ok so I FIIIIIINALLY got my E4ME rebuild, got an 02 sensor bung welded in, did intake gaskets, and dropped in the correct remote mount distributor and coil. Fired it up, timed it, runs pretty damn smooth, but my problem is its running fairly rich. I have a Tech 1 at work and its flagging the 02 as "rich" and M/C dwell is sitting at 10%/6 degrees and doesn't move even when I hit the throttle. Every once in a good while it flashes to 40%, then back to 10%. It is, however, going into closed loop (according to the scanner).

Any thoughts on what to check first? The carb is running off its presets from the rebuild which were done by an older tech here who used to do nothing but rebuild Q-jets, so there may need to be more adjustments made - I just wanted to see if being fixed at 10% is anything obvious. No vacuum leaks that I can find, and Im not gonna scan for codes just yet - it has no EGR no AIR a lotta things still missing.

Edit: I found I had a small vaccum port not plugged so I plugged it. Now I get a few cross counts here and there but still pretty much stuck at 10% or 6*.

 

Interesting thread....you rarely hear of anyone going back to CCC once they've gotten a car that's been hacked up. The system is good so long as it's running correctly. As far as performance, at least in my experience, the EGR valve won't really effect anything nor will the EFE valve (so long as it's open) or the AIR system ...

If you look at how a lot of those systems work, they really only come into play during cold startup for the most part....I'm sure a few might dispute that, but it's true.

I ran mine with the EGR port blocked off - As I recall, I simply took the pintle (valve part) off the egr valve and bolted it up on top of the block off plate on my Weiand Action Plus Intake so it looked like I was compliant.

I had disconnected/removed my AIR managemant valve, and ran the outlet hose from the AIR pump straight to the CAT without issue. I had no "Check Engine" codes - (as far as computers go, the CCC ones are pretty dumb by today's standards and don't look at everything) Most of all, I passed emissions every time with flying colors!

- But that was with an '83 CCC system. Not sure if the computers got smarter in on the '84-up models...either way, lookin good!

EDIT: I "think" the dwell on the MCS should move around a bit and constantly adjust while idling...I seem to recall mine doing that...

 

Lower dwell means the rods are in the jets less and allowing more fuel through. If it's not in closed loop mode don't assume that means it's actually responding to a lean condition. It may be just stuck in it's 'last known good' position or the factory default waiting for a rich/lean flag to tell it which way to go.

With the scanner hooked up, AFTER timing has been properly set and curb idle is below 800, set both idle mixture screws at 4 turns out and the IAB set screw at 4 turns out. Give it time to warm up and go into closed loop. If it does, adjust the IAB, 1/8 turn at a time, to get the dwell nearest 50%. The dwell should be constantly changing when it's in closed loop as it adjusts to O2 rich/lean flags.

If it won't go into closed loop, start with the idle mixture and IAB screws at 2 1/2 turns out. Adjust the IAB 1/8 turn at a time up to about 7 turns out. If no success (does not go into feedback mode), start again with the idle mixture screws another 1/2 turn out. Repeat until you get closed loop and near 50% dwell, with the goal being nearest 4 turns out on all.

 

Uh, closed loop = feedback mode...

 

the bane of thirdgen camaros.....POs that rip out anything they dont understand.(which seems to be quite a bit)

 

I've had that problem before. Edited it to fix.

 

Retaining function of the EGR can be beneficial in allowing more base timing or reducing spark retard in post 85 models. At throttle tip in during low speed cruise EGR helps reduce pinging, which would otherwise have to be tackled by reducing base timing and/or running a higher octane fuel in pre-85 models without the KS OR the KS pulling timing which may reduce mileage.

 

It does go into closed loop. So should I start with the IAB and see if dwell will start moving? With the air cleaner off all vacuum ports plugged I got some cross counts but back on it stayed rich. All adjustments I make are with the car fully warmed up. To be honest it runs great as it is plenty of pep just runs so darn rich... Slight hesistation off the line too but its not that bad.

 

Make slight adjustments to the IAB until you get the dwell near 50%. It may be going into closed loop but not able to adjust the mixture enough to compensate and pegging the dwell.

If it's running rich AND in closed loop you'd expect the dwell to be pegged near max, around 80-90%, restricting as much fuel as possible.

 

Right on, at this point I figure its running too lean at the carb and the 02 sensor is trying to compensate but can't. Thanks for the response my little bro is borrowing it right now (I told him to keep oil in his Saturn but he didnt listen....) so I'll tweak it later on and see if I can get the dwell to come up. Thanks again!

 

Small update, I started messing with the IAB, turning it in bit by bit and it didnt seem to do much of anything. I was tempted to start pulling the mixture screws out when I noticed on the TECH1 my TPS voltage at idle is 5.1 volts. So I gotta check for a short to power on the signal somewhere. Rather that or its a bad TPS but I don't wanna think about takin this carb off again. I will if I have to but I'd much rather do a wiring repair personally. Less fuel to deal with.

 

Most likely bad TPS. If you've got an old one in there the plunger 'could' be stuck down but that will usually only send about a 4 volt signal. Before you go chasing wires, pull the plug and the signal should go to near zero volts.

 

Unplugged it reads 5V (5.1 or 5.01 to be exact, cant remember which but its 5 and some change) on the Tech 1. Reference voltage and signal seem to be identical and I would not leave it past the previous owner to leave a harness routed wrong or on the exhaust. Plus the heater control valve leaks so the wires could be rotted out inside the conduit. I'll check it out when I have some more time. Thanks for the help and quick responses.

Oh, the tech that rebuilt my carb told me he didnt see too many bad TP sensors but I'm assuming he meant back in the late 80s/early 90s when the cars were relatively new. Now most of them have been rebuilt you don't know what your getting.

 

I've replaced several TPS sensors with 'new' ones in the past few years that failed in short order. I've since stopped replacing a good working original with a 'new' TPS. I"ve even picked up a few originals in the JYs here and there and saved for maybe later.

If there's no change in the reading with the TPS unplugged, go through the wiring. Sounds like a direct short between the 5V lead to the TPS and the sender wire back to the ECM. The third wire should be the ground. Maybe pull the 5V line off at the ECM and see what the TPS voltage is? You can read it without the engine running, key in 'run'.