tom1985

Greetings
I have a 1985 Camaro VIN H 305 E4ME carb with 700 r4. I have been asking emissions removal and TCC questions for a couple of weeks now and am learning from you guys and am thankfull.

***My question now is can the E4ME emisions equipped carb be modified to use without the computer.?? ***

( From what I've learned so far, it seemed that without a computer, you need a different carb, a vac/mech distributer and a TCC fix. So to that end I had an hei distr from my big block I can use, I got an OLDSMOBILE q-Jet frm a friend, and am not yet sure what to do with the TCC lockup issue.

However, it appears that alot of modifications would need to be made to the Olds carb as the fuel input and throttle setup is quite diff from the Chevy E4 original carb- So, what can be done to modify the E4 I have to use it without the computer OR why can't it be used? Money is a problem in my case
thanks in advancefor your help

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Sure. Take it off, set it aside. Put some other carb on.

"Olds" doesn't make a damn bit of difference, except that it won't fit on a Chevy very gracefully.

I feel ya d00d. That's what happens when you buy stuff like that, that isn't any good to you. Sell it and go for a Mulligan.

tom1985

Thanks for the reply,
but my question was how can the existing e4me carb be modified to use without the computer?? OR why can't it be modified

also, a friend gave me the carb, i didn't buy it

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

By using some other carb.

IT needs another carb because ALL of the adjustments to the mixture that need to occur as operating conditions change (load, RPM, etc.) are made by the ECM. Without its controls, it's basically numb to the outside world. It lacks the parts to handle all of that by itself.

Ozz1967

iTrader: (4)

What Sofa is saying, is why remove the ECM? If you can remove the emissions in your area due to non-testing, and in no way do I recommend it as it's Federal law to have it, then remove the emissions and keep the Computer and Factory carb, it'll run as good as/better than anything you put in aftermarket and you won't have to spend $400 on new carb and distributor then try and "tune" the new carb.

Many members here have removed their emissions equipment and still run the factory CC Qjet with zero problems.

tom1985

OK Ozz67 but what all do I need to keep as far as sensors go. It appears there are many, and more if you use the distr as well. I am putting headers, no ox sensor, EGR gone, Coolant sensors gone, (but still have it) cruise gone. I have the computer and all this stuff, but who knows what is working. Computer shows no light and a hhokup device said "no data found, even with mant sensors disconnected. Without the OX sensor, which I don't really want to provide for. My question remains, what can be done to modify the q-jet to perform satisfactorily like a normal q-jet., w/o any sensors or ecm control. P.S. I live in IL and car is antique status w/o any emission testing/requirement
respectfully tom1985

Ozz1967

iTrader: (4)

Ok,

Can I ask why you want to remove the computer? Does the car not run well now? Is it a complete hack job from the previous owner?


The main sensors that you need, with the ECM to run properly, are the Fan Switch in the passenger head, the temp sender in the driver side head, the knock sensor on the passenger side near the bottom of the block, the O2 sensor, the Baro sensor (on the passenger side up on the firewall, the Temp sensor that's on the water neck and the two sensors on the top of the carb.

Those are the ones you "need" to run with the ECM connected.

I run no emissions on my car (other than cat) and it runs fine with the computer. I also have my cruise and AC still hooked up because well, I like my creature comforts. The only things I disconnected were the AIR pump. The 02, cruise, CC Qjet, EGR are all still connected.

Dyno Don and Hooker both sell headers with provisions for the O2 sensor. All the rest you can leave in place.

You said you didn't get a reading on the OBD1 port in the car...you must run external power to it, it's not just a plug and read.

The computer controls the timing so if you get rid of it, you also need to remove the factory distributor and get a non computer controlled distributor. To run the Qjet without the computer, you must buy a new non-computer cotroled Qjet. You'll never be able to tune the CC Qjet without the ECM. Can't be done.

Now, with the computer disconnected, the ones you "need", as far as I'm aware, are the temp sender in the drivers head to run the temp gauge in the care and the fan switch in the passenger head which runs the fan. That's it.

tom1985

OZZ67, thank you for your reply again.

As background: My main issues are:
1. All this stuff is rusted and don't know if working and IS IN THE WAY of cleaning up the engine bay,
2. I don't understand this stuff ( I've had 2 55 chevies which I had my 1969 396-375hp motor in them and now have a 65 lemans with this same motor-I just take to local car cruises/shows & drink beer and smoke cigarettes. (heads have never been off the motor- 40 years ago the 65 ran 12.31 at 115mph with a cam, 850 holley and a 4:88 with slicks/headers & still runs as good today.(with no computer, and a points distr from 69)
3. I am 60 yrs old, I never owned a MM wrench or socket until recently and despise having to take 3 components or more off to get to the bolt I want to remove-I am ecm iliterite (can't spell either), have a limited desire to understand it
4.Wires all over ever part of the engine and compartment (took me days to get the valve covers off ) . Why would I want to keep stuff I don't understand, is rusted, breaks and costs alot of money to diagnose and replace, with equipment I don't have.
5.I have an HEI new from summit I bought 10 yrs ago to use for the 396 with a summit
igniition and rev-limiter I really dont need as my racing days are over. I got an Oldsmobile q-jet from a friend, (but throttle and fuel input is much different, thus I don't want to spend money to try and modify it to work.
6. I'd rather use the q-jet it has without the "sensors" (which I call incorrectly "emissions" stuff). I will now say "sensors and wires all over the place",that I don't understand and don't want to pay for when they stop working.

So, I realize that not too many people understand the inner workings of carbs and especially an ecm controlled one-but, in my mind, the existing ccc has a mech throttle and accel pump a choke, idle mixture scres and airhorn so if the engine generates vacuum and the throttle is pressed some functions of the carb should occur without use of the ecm or sensors-

My question remains: why can't it be modified to work as a normal carb, not a "perfect" computer carb, if there is one- my 396 works ok, bogs a little butI can live with that, It starts, idles and opens the 4 barrels when I mash it. Nt much for leaded 110 gas however.

Sincere thanks for your input, but maybe the carb question is too technical for this setting?

Ozz1967

iTrader: (4)

Glad to help. The idle and WOT throttle are mechanically set, true. That much hasn't changed. The main reason the CC Qjet won't work, is that all part throttle fuel metering is done with input from the ECM which adjusts the mixture control solenoid based on the readings coming from the O2 sensor.

The Qjet you got from the oldsmobile will work, even though the fuel input is different. You just need to make sure you run the non computer controlled distributor as the new carb will be set using vacuum, just like you're used to.

Being an 85, there aren't many sensors that you need to disconnect. In fact, once the distributor and carb are out of it, that's basically the nuts of it. Unplug the knock sensor (bottom of engine on passenger side), but leave the Fan switch in the passenger head and temp sender in the drivers head. Disconnect the sensor in the water neck on the front of the motor. disconnect the EGR. Hmm, possible you can simply pull the ECM fuse at this point and leave it all or cut it off and fold it back to hide it.


However, if the fan turns on automatically now, I'd not touch that circuit. It can be a pain to rebuild/troubleshoot those circuits unless you want to run a clutch fan.

I've personally not removed my ECM, I prefer it to remain for now, so if someone else with more experience wants to chime in, please do.

tom1985

Thanks OZZ67 if I appeared sceptical of the answers w/o the why's, that's just me
and you stated "The main reason the CC Qjet won't work, is that all part throttle fuel metering is done with input from the ECM which adjusts the mixture control solenoid based on the readings coming from the O2 sensor."

So, as I don't understand part throttle metering, I guess it happens with the "jet" size" in a holley, which provides fuel and the air which comes from "God" (thanks be to God) it somehow mixes and allows the engine to burn the mixture. So, with the metering part throttle being handled by the ecom, what will the carb do without the input?? Will gas not be allowed to flow the air cannot be stopped by the computer.

I am not being a jerk here, just want to use the carb as it fits and am willing for a "not perfect" result, and am still unclear why something cannot be changed on the q-jet to make it viable, given that they likely modified their std card to incorporate the emissions stuff.

Can I put smaller jets (if a q-jet has them?) , or a diff accel pump, so if the carb goes "all rich" which I saw somewhere the changes will maybe offset that ?

I'veemailed Five7kid, who I've also seen has very solid and knowledgable replies to provide his input as well

tom1985

Oh, by the way, I have a clutch fan, not electrical, I'm pretty sure, as I took it off and it looks like my 69

tom1985

Oh, also, this car is completely stock, however he put a B&M shifter in it because he said it would not downshift from overdrive when he applied the brake, now the car will start in any gear, but he gave me the old shifter which I plan to put back in eventuallyI am 2nd owned and worked with the guy who bought it new, he got the 700r4, 4wheel disks, posi 3:08, but also got the car z-barted which has undercoating all over the engine compantment and a mess, and it didn't stop the doors from completely rusting out underneath making them a replacement I need to deal with eventually, . I cannot run the engine anymore as I am taking stuff off to wire brush and paint and all the several fuel lines, etc are rusted to ****. I was very careful trying to remove the radiator but a little twist in the frozen fitting on the bottom line cracked the line apparently in the middle somewhere, likely where it was attached with a rusted bracket to the frame, so 1 step forward 2 back, kinda every day I work on it.

An unrelated question for you guys, the engine has 106K on it and was running OK before I started, I pulled the valve covers and not much sludge, I thing the guy I bought from (15yrs ago) took care of it maint wise.

I am hoping to not pull the engine, as I have no garage room to work on it, but have a guy I know (NAPA machinest) do a valve job since I have all the engine stuff off to be repainted (and sandblasted/cleaned) and a new timing chain, waterpump, and maybe power steering pump/lines

Any other common problems on 85 305 that I should know of and potentially replace and replace?
thanks for your help

Ozz1967

iTrader: (4)

Five7 is/was the moderator for the carb forum. He helped me tune my carb when I built my new motor up for the car.

Without the ECM telling the carb how to meter the fuel, it'll just sit there and do nothing running either really rich or really lean and you won't be able to tune it because there is no mechanical adjustment for it. It's all electrical. For what you want to do, I'd find a non-cc Qjet from any 1970's car, rebuild it and put it on. That seems to be your best bet. Something like this. Notice how it doesn't have the electrical connectors on top that yours does.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ROCHESTER-QUADRAJET-fits-1975-85-Chevy-cars-GMC-TRUCKS-w-Electric-choke-1191281-/190911232357?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2c73323965&vxp=mtr

Ozz1967

iTrader: (4)

You've got a pretty good handle on it, as long as it was running when you pulled the heads. Since they're off, I"d have the heads ported and polished and get a valve job for a 1.94 intake and 1.60 exhaust as the heads are one of the main resticters holding the 305 back performance-wise.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

You've basically gotten your answers. The sensors aren't for "fine tuning", they are basic to the operation. The system is a "system", meaning it needs all its parts for any of them to operate correctly. The curb idle, accelerator pump, and secondaries are exactly the same as a non-computer q-jet, but that's where the similarity ends. The computer uses the input from the throttle position sensor in the carb, along with the engine speed input from the distributor, and the manifold vacuum information from the MAP sensor, and the engine temperature from the coolant temperature sensor to determine mixture ratio (via the mixture control solenoid in the carb) and ignition advance by telling the coil when to fire. The mixture ratio is further fine tuned in closed loop operations (feedback) with the O2 sensor (after the engine warms up a little).

I did put a non-computer Holley 4165 spreadbore double pumper on my LG4 by rigging up a throttle position sensor connected to the throttle arm. It ran okay, but interestingly would give lean mixture codes under certain cruise conditions, even though the engine sounded fine and seemed to be running fine (never had a wideband O2 sensor to actually measure the mixture ratio). I finally ended the experiment when the weather got cool because the Holley didn't have an electric choke. The Holley also didn't make the car run any better, or any faster (I was drag racing it regularly at the time).

You can also run without EGR (which I did) with no significant effect. However, you need to leave the EGR solenoid connected electrically, or the computer will turn on the SES light and set an error code.

Or, as stated, you can go all non-computer and replace the carb and distributor with older pieces. I've had a lot of q-jets and a few Holleys over the years, and the best street/performance carb setup I ever had was the '86 LG4 computer carb/ignition setup. Get things set to factory specs, and it'll run fine. You can clean up the clutter a little with smart routing of the wires/harnesses.

Edwardgp

Welcome aboard Tom, from another 60 something old school er.

tom1985

Thanks for your input Five7 and others. I will try to use the Oldsmobile carb I got free from a friend, which was recently rebuilt, including the throttle plate by a carb shop, He went with a Holley he had. The 2 issues with the carb are the inlet, which is in the center and the throttle linkage. Now with a new therm housing, and more room I should be able to change the fitting and bend a tube/hose to get it where I want it on the side. I asked a carb shop guy on the phone if I could use the throttle plate from the ECM carb on the Olds car, and he said, it may "fit" but likely won't work cause of "passages" differences. I have not messed with this as this is not a priority now, but if anyone has tried this switch or has any input, I'd appreciate it.

Five7 / others, I hope you will comment on another question I posted. Forgoing the TCC lockup options as I plan to "eventually" use the car only for occasional cruise/car shows nearby (within 20 miles or so 1-way max), at speeds from 25-35 stop and go, and occasional highway for a max of about 20miles at legal limit speeds of 55-60. I am thinking that the "burnup" will not be an issue with this limited use? and, would I be better of using 3rd or 4th gear for the highway use to reduce the "heat"?
thanks to all for your inputs-you guys are great!

Ozz1967

iTrader: (4)

With no lockup provision set up, the transmission will always be "slipping" and creating heat internally. Just using the 3-4 gear won't really do anything for you in that regard so it's not a matter of "if" you burn up your 700R4, it's a matter of "when". Gettign an external trans cooler will help, you plug it in-line with your transmission lines that goe to the radiator. You have the transmission fluid go into the radiator, then out of the radiator and to the aux cooler, and then to the transmission from the aux cooler. This isn't a "fix" but it'll help keep things cool. However, you're best getting a transmission that doesn't require the lockup like a TH350 or Th400. They do sell kits fairly cheaply to get the lockup to work.

Also, with your intent to "bend" the inlet fuel line, just be careful you don't restrict the fuel too much. Remember, you need 5-7psi actually getting to the carb.

jwfirebird

iTrader: (2)

maybe it would be easier to sell both your ccc and olds quad and buy a 70's chevy one.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tran...ch-lockup.html

TwoStrokeDan

When I bought my 86 LG4 in June, it was running like crap, it has 300,000 Km on it.
I removed the original carburetor and fully rebuilt it, took me a few hours of work. but had to order all the parts first.
With a rebuilt carb (including a new solenoid), the car is running very well.

Because the carburetor looked like it was abused, I also ordered a professionally rebuilt carb from e-bay for about $400. I didn't end up using it but it looks brand new in and out.
So this is another option.