Dies from idle to wot

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Sep 7, 2021 | 08:13 PM
  #1  
Ok Holley guys. Here's my setup. 3.23 rear. 700r4. 2000 stall converter. 305. 194 valve. Port polish open the bowl.. basically alot of head work. Eddie intake.

https://sandiegoengineparts.com/products/engine-pro-performance-camshafts-mc1713-1

That's the cam I have.
Running mid grade fuel compression 9.5-1
total timing 38*
Holley 750 dp mechanical secondaries.

Been playing with jetting and squirters. Right now I have 28 primaries 30 secondaries.
28 primary squirter. 31 secondary squirter.

Now the problem. If I go from a stop to WOT she dies. Just straight died. I had like 22 27 jetting but plugs showed lean. So I went till they didn't. Problem consistent. Tried upping the primary squirter. 32 -31. Same issue. Power valve not blown. Carb recently rebuilt. What am I missing. It sounds choppy in the low end. Clears up in the top end. Actually runs like a bat outta hell if I get to 10mph and slam it. Just the low end is bad. I put a vaccume gauge and set the idle screws to the highest lean number I could get.
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Sep 7, 2021 | 08:38 PM
  #2  
Re: Dies from idle to wot
Get a wideband and watch the a/f when the secondaries open. That's a lot of carb for a 305, I'm guessing it's going rich.

Does the issue reproduce if you roll into the throttle smoothly?
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Sep 7, 2021 | 08:44 PM
  #3  
Re: Dies from idle to wot
Quote: Get a wideband and watch the a/f when the secondaries open. That's a lot of carb for a 305, I'm guessing it's going rich.

Does the issue reproduce if you roll into the throttle smoothly?
Its not much for a 305. They came with a quadrajet that's near 750. If I roll into it, it'll do fine. I was presuming it's going dead rich but to test that I did part throttle to kill. Check plugs. And wot to kill. Check plugs. I jetted accordingly. I also removed the primary pump cam to test if it was just dead rich. No change
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Sep 7, 2021 | 09:00 PM
  #4  
Re: Dies from idle to wot
Quote: Its not much for a 305. They came with a quadrajet that's near 750.
Quite a few differences between a qjet and a holley. Always good to know you won't be going lean at 8500rpm, I suppose?
Quote: If I roll into it, it'll do fine.
Kinda seems like expected behavior then. If you really want to mash the throttle at low rpm, have you considered vacuum secondaries?
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Sep 7, 2021 | 09:11 PM
  #5  
Re: Dies from idle to wot
Quote: Quite a few differences between a qjet and a holley. Always good to know you won't be going lean at 8500rpm, I suppose?Kinda seems like expected behavior then. If you really want to mash the throttle at low rpm, have you considered vacuum secondaries?
yeah. Cfm wise though they're fairly similar.

Yes. I would of gone with vacuum secondaries but this is what was on the market in my budget. I'm building a 305 after all. I don't dare spend alot of money on it. Im building what is a true hot rod. (making what you have do whatever it can) and working at a machine shop. I can do alot for free.

What confuses me is that before the heads and cam it ran great through the rpm range. I would presume it's going dead lean. How to combat that. My jetting is a bit fat where it's at. Tried 31-31 pump squirters. I know my power valve is a bit big but it shouldn't cause this issue. Maybe change from 30 to 50cc pumps?

I've considered the adapter to make secondaries open later too.
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Sep 7, 2021 | 10:25 PM
  #6  
Re: Dies from idle to wot
*smh*

The old "151" cam. Can't believe that thing is even still available.

It came in the L79. 327 in Nova and other VERY light cars of the early-mid 60s. Vettes as well: the Camaro didn't exist yet. For its day, it RIPPED. Of course, that was also the day when one could buy 101 octane gas at the corner by your house; and its reputation was solidified when the NATIONAL speed limit - meaning, NOWHERE in the US, could you exceed it - was 55 mph. Take a 2900 lb leaf spring car with a close-ratio 4-speed, put monoleafs under it with slapper bars, the widest tires you could buy in ... 1974, 4.56 gears OR HIGHER, preferably 5:13 (good old 12-bolt gears), make friends with the d00d at the local general aviation airport who would look the other way while you put av gas into something that had something other than a Lycoming 4-cyl under the hood and wouldn't collect the "highway" taxes on it, ... yeah. Ah yes, those were the days. Glad they're over.

In case you can't tell, I WAS THERE, and I DID THAT. The statute of limitations is expired so I can now admit to it.

But this is 2021. Not 1977 anymore. That 50-some-yr-old cam is A PIECE OF MONKEY EXCREMENT in 2021. I'm sorry they did that to you.

When I lived out there I used a machine shop up in Oceanside. (I lived in Carlsbad) Really good people. Can't remember their name (too many decades, not sure they're even still alive, let alone still THERE) but they were EXCELLENT. Wouldn't have sent you down that path.

You need to YANK that POS out of your engine RIGHT NOW. It's completely wrong for 2021. It wants about 2 full points more compression and more CID than you have, and WILL NOT do what it's supposed to do without it. The motor it came in rolled off the showroom floor with 11.1:1 "spec" and we all looked for ways to INCREASE it from there, to get more out of it. There's NO WAY you'll EVER get a carb to "fix" what that cam ails your motor with. GET IT OUT. NOW. First thing, before you try to do ANYTHING ELSE.

With your no-gear stock-converter no-compression no-motor 305 worthless malfunction situation, replace that outdated worthless POS with a Comp XE256. Don't even BOTHER messing with the carb until you fix that MAJOR MALFUNCTION.
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Sep 7, 2021 | 11:03 PM
  #7  
Re: Dies from idle to wot
Quote: *smh*

The old "151" cam. Can't believe that thing is even still available.

It came in the L79. 327 in Nova and other VERY light cars of the early-mid 60s. Vettes as well: the Camaro didn't exist yet. For its day, it RIPPED. Of course, that was also the day when one could buy 101 octane gas at the corner by your house; and its reputation was solidified when the NATIONAL speed limit - meaning, NOWHERE in the US, could you exceed it - was 55 mph. Take a 2900 lb leaf spring car with a close-ratio 4-speed, put monoleafs under it with slapper bars, the widest tires you could buy in ... 1974, 4.56 gears OR HIGHER, preferably 5:13 (good old 12-bolt gears), make friends with the d00d at the local general aviation airport who would look the other way while you put av gas into something that had something other than a Lycoming 4-cyl under the hood and wouldn't collect the "highway" taxes on it, ... yeah. Ah yes, those were the days. Glad they're over.

In case you can't tell, I WAS THERE, and I DID THAT. The statute of limitations is expired so I can now admit to it.

But this is 2021. Not 1977 anymore. That 50-some-yr-old cam is A PIECE OF MONKEY EXCREMENT in 2021. I'm sorry they did that to you.

When I lived out there I used a machine shop up in Oceanside. (I lived in Carlsbad) Really good people. Can't remember their name (too many decades, not sure they're even still alive, let alone still THERE) but they were EXCELLENT. Wouldn't have sent you down that path.

You need to YANK that POS out of your engine RIGHT NOW. It's completely wrong for 2021. It wants about 2 full points more compression and more CID than you have, and WILL NOT do what it's supposed to do without it. The motor it came in rolled off the showroom floor with 11.1:1 "spec" and we all looked for ways to INCREASE it from there, to get more out of it. There's NO WAY you'll EVER get a carb to "fix" what that cam ails your motor with. GET IT OUT. NOW. First thing, before you try to do ANYTHING ELSE.

With your no-gear stock-converter no-compression no-motor 305 worthless malfunction situation, replace that outdated worthless POS with a Comp XE256. Don't even BOTHER messing with the carb until you fix that MAJOR MALFUNCTION.
Aight hot head cool down. I'm aware of what cam I have. The ole 327 350 cam. Know why I have it? **** do be free. I'm aware it wants more compression. With today's **** gas it ain't happening. Especially on a 305. 3.23 gear is more gear than what my factory gearing was. I didn't know camaros came with a 2-2500 stall converter. Wasn't it 17-2 or something like that? 9.5-1 compression is quite a jump from stock compression.
Ah. Snagging on the "worthless" 305. Yeah it's 2021. But that 305 beat a newer Scooby in a 30 roll....
And i do have my reasoning on why I have done what I have done to a 305. Stop with the oh god oh jeez a 305s a boat anchor worthless malfunction oh Christ that camshaft oh jeez why would you use that oh Lord I gotta go start my LS just to cleans myself from what somebody else is doing.

Anywho. The cam will work with my motor setup. It's not optimal no. But it will work. The malfunction is not the motor. Believe it or not. The motor works. It turns over. Fires on all 8. Creates mini explosions that turn a transmission and wham bam I get places. Almost like it was designed to do that...... The problem lies within the carburator for this application and the low end tuning of it. Being a motorcycle guy I'm familiar with carburators. Automotive carbs are a bit different however. So i seek advice in tuning them. That's why I asked about tuning them. I did not, however, ask your opinion on my motor. My combination. My gearing or my stall converter. Now if you have anything informative on my situation on what I can try an change to bring back the low end, I would love to hear that.
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Sep 8, 2021 | 12:37 AM
  #8  
Re: Dies from idle to wot
Quote: oh jeez why would you use that oh Lord I gotta go start my LS just to cleans myself from what somebody else is doing.


I'm starting to like this guy.
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Sep 8, 2021 | 01:27 AM
  #9  
Re: Dies from idle to wot
Not sure about "hot head". My head is just fine as far as I can tell. I'm just somebody that's been in this hobby since probably about the time your grandpa was barely a gleam in your grandma's eye. You have NO IDEA how many disappointed customers I've had over the years who JUST HAD TO HAVE that cam, since after all, it gave "350 HP" out of a 327; and they figured that if they jammed it into their 1976 Monte Carlo 305 with 2.73 rear gear, it oughtta SMOKE dem tires.

Yeah right. Didn't happen in 1977, won't happen in 2021. Just like LOTS of motors "turned over" and "fired on all 8" back then, but still GOT BEAT by grandma's 350 2-bbl Malibu. Except now that it's 2021, it's even WORSE than it was in 1977.

That cam will NOT work with that motor. It's a complete utter total mismatch. It's BEYOND the ability to "tune" a carb around it. It's ... WRONG. With a capital R.

Doesn't matter what "stock 305 compression" was. Doesn't matter that you claim 2 tenths more than a L69. It's NOT ENOUGH for that cam. STOCK motors that it was equipped with came with 11.1:1, AND THAT WASN'T ENOUGH. They had 101 octane gas down at the corner, AND THAT WASN'T ENOUGH. As long as you have that cam in your motor, it's gonna be a disappointing pig, just like every other motor like it that somebody's tried to do the same thing, for the last 50 years. Except that originally, people tried sticking it in 283s, with even less compression you have. It was AWFUL. People with stock 45 HP VWs would DRILL them. Doesn't matter that your 3.23s are "more than your car came with". IT'S NOT ENOUGH. Doesn't matter that your converter stalls at 2000 RPM. IT'S NOT ENOUGH. That cam needs a stick shift and AT LEAST 4.56 gears, and of course 11:1 compression, to do its thing. It's a recipe for disaster in your combo.

Get rid of the cam. Doesn't matter if it was "a good deal", doesn't matter if it was "free", doesn't matter if somebody PAID YOU to take it off their hands. None of that matters. It's WRONG for your situation. It's ... WRONG. There's really no other word, no 2 ways about it.

You can make a 305 ... better than it came, easily enough; the fact that the same $$$ spent on a better core to begin with will get you WAAAAAYYYYYY more, is beside the point. You CAN make your motor better than it came, better than it is, and all such as that. Lay off of that for the time being. Your problem is, you have THE WRONG CAM for any of that. It WILL defeat you. Just like it has defeated the 3 generations of small block Chevy builders that came before you. GET RID OF IT.

Leave the carb alone for the time being. It's not The Problem. That cam IS The Problem. GET IT OUT OF THERE. Put in a Comp XE256.

Now if y ou have any common sense AT ALL, and any respect for EXPERIENCE and BTDT, you'll quit arguing and being a young inexperienced dumba$$ that thinks they're gonna somehow rewrite the laws of physics. Ain't happenin.

Get that cam out of there. You have no hope as long as it's in there. It will keep your motor PERMANENTLY LAME; 305, 283, 307, 302, 350, doesn't matter. It's THE WRONG CAM no matter what you're trying to do if you have less than about 11:1 compression, and doubly so in your specific situation. Get rid of it.
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Sep 8, 2021 | 07:40 AM
  #10  
Re: Dies from idle to wot
Quote: Not sure about "hot head". My head is just fine as far as I can tell. I'm just somebody that's been in this hobby since probably about the time your grandpa was barely a gleam in your grandma's eye. You have NO IDEA how many disappointed customers I've had over the years who JUST HAD TO HAVE that cam, since after all, it gave "350 HP" out of a 327; and they figured that if they jammed it into their 1976 Monte Carlo 305 with 2.73 rear gear, it oughtta SMOKE dem tires.

Yeah right. Didn't happen in 1977, won't happen in 2021. Just like LOTS of motors "turned over" and "fired on all 8" back then, but still GOT BEAT by grandma's 350 2-bbl Malibu. Except now that it's 2021, it's even WORSE than it was in 1977.

That cam will NOT work with that motor. It's a complete utter total mismatch. It's BEYOND the ability to "tune" a carb around it. It's ... WRONG. With a capital R.

Doesn't matter what "stock 305 compression" was. Doesn't matter that you claim 2 tenths more than a L69. It's NOT ENOUGH for that cam. STOCK motors that it was equipped with came with 11.1:1, AND THAT WASN'T ENOUGH. They had 101 octane gas down at the corner, AND THAT WASN'T ENOUGH. As long as you have that cam in your motor, it's gonna be a disappointing pig, just like every other motor like it that somebody's tried to do the same thing, for the last 50 years. Except that originally, people tried sticking it in 283s, with even less compression you have. It was AWFUL. People with stock 45 HP VWs would DRILL them. Doesn't matter that your 3.23s are "more than your car came with". IT'S NOT ENOUGH. Doesn't matter that your converter stalls at 2000 RPM. IT'S NOT ENOUGH. That cam needs a stick shift and AT LEAST 4.56 gears, and of course 11:1 compression, to do its thing. It's a recipe for disaster in your combo.

Get rid of the cam. Doesn't matter if it was "a good deal", doesn't matter if it was "free", doesn't matter if somebody PAID YOU to take it off their hands. None of that matters. It's WRONG for your situation. It's ... WRONG. There's really no other word, no 2 ways about it.

You can make a 305 ... better than it came, easily enough; the fact that the same $$$ spent on a better core to begin with will get you WAAAAAYYYYYY more, is beside the point. You CAN make your motor better than it came, better than it is, and all such as that. Lay off of that for the time being. Your problem is, you have THE WRONG CAM for any of that. It WILL defeat you. Just like it has defeated the 3 generations of small block Chevy builders that came before you. GET RID OF IT.

Leave the carb alone for the time being. It's not The Problem. That cam IS The Problem. GET IT OUT OF THERE. Put in a Comp XE256.

Now if y ou have any common sense AT ALL, and any respect for EXPERIENCE and BTDT, you'll quit arguing and being a young inexperienced dumba$$ that thinks they're gonna somehow rewrite the laws of physics. Ain't happenin.

Get that cam out of there. You have no hope as long as it's in there. It will keep your motor PERMANENTLY LAME; 305, 283, 307, 302, 350, doesn't matter. It's THE WRONG CAM no matter what you're trying to do if you have less than about 11:1 compression, and doubly so in your specific situation. Get rid of it.
I respect the experience of my boss. His dad. And my co worker. Guys are old as can be. Boss is actually know for making **** that "shouldn't work" work. Trust me ive seen some wild ****.... Either way., You still haven't said anything useful or helpful. Just a bunch of nonsense.
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Sep 8, 2021 | 07:45 AM
  #11  
Re: Dies from idle to wot
Quote:

I'm starting to like this guy.

You laugh. But I have head that.
Reply 0
Sep 9, 2021 | 07:20 AM
  #12  
Re: Dies from idle to wot
Quote: Not sure about "hot head". My head is just fine as far as I can tell. I'm just somebody that's been in this hobby since probably about the time your grandpa was barely a gleam in your grandma's eye. You have NO IDEA how many disappointed customers I've had over the years who JUST HAD TO HAVE that cam, since after all, it gave "350 HP" out of a 327; and they figured that if they jammed it into their 1976 Monte Carlo 305 with 2.73 rear gear, it oughtta SMOKE dem tires.

Yeah right. Didn't happen in 1977, won't happen in 2021. Just like LOTS of motors "turned over" and "fired on all 8" back then, but still GOT BEAT by grandma's 350 2-bbl Malibu. Except now that it's 2021, it's even WORSE than it was in 1977.

That cam will NOT work with that motor. It's a complete utter total mismatch. It's BEYOND the ability to "tune" a carb around it. It's ... WRONG. With a capital R.

Doesn't matter what "stock 305 compression" was. Doesn't matter that you claim 2 tenths more than a L69. It's NOT ENOUGH for that cam. STOCK motors that it was equipped with came with 11.1:1, AND THAT WASN'T ENOUGH. They had 101 octane gas down at the corner, AND THAT WASN'T ENOUGH. As long as you have that cam in your motor, it's gonna be a disappointing pig, just like every other motor like it that somebody's tried to do the same thing, for the last 50 years. Except that originally, people tried sticking it in 283s, with even less compression you have. It was AWFUL. People with stock 45 HP VWs would DRILL them. Doesn't matter that your 3.23s are "more than your car came with". IT'S NOT ENOUGH. Doesn't matter that your converter stalls at 2000 RPM. IT'S NOT ENOUGH. That cam needs a stick shift and AT LEAST 4.56 gears, and of course 11:1 compression, to do its thing. It's a recipe for disaster in your combo.

Get rid of the cam. Doesn't matter if it was "a good deal", doesn't matter if it was "free", doesn't matter if somebody PAID YOU to take it off their hands. None of that matters. It's WRONG for your situation. It's ... WRONG. There's really no other word, no 2 ways about it.

You can make a 305 ... better than it came, easily enough; the fact that the same $$$ spent on a better core to begin with will get you WAAAAAYYYYYY more, is beside the point. You CAN make your motor better than it came, better than it is, and all such as that. Lay off of that for the time being. Your problem is, you have THE WRONG CAM for any of that. It WILL defeat you. Just like it has defeated the 3 generations of small block Chevy builders that came before you. GET RID OF IT.

Leave the carb alone for the time being. It's not The Problem. That cam IS The Problem. GET IT OUT OF THERE. Put in a Comp XE256.

Now if y ou have any common sense AT ALL, and any respect for EXPERIENCE and BTDT, you'll quit arguing and being a young inexperienced dumba$$ that thinks they're gonna somehow rewrite the laws of physics. Ain't happenin.

Get that cam out of there. You have no hope as long as it's in there. It will keep your motor PERMANENTLY LAME; 305, 283, 307, 302, 350, doesn't matter. It's THE WRONG CAM no matter what you're trying to do if you have less than about 11:1 compression, and doubly so in your specific situation. Get rid of it.

With the help of the boss it digs now. I have to replace my fuel pump it's a bit weak. We ended up rejetting. Changing the squirter size and then the cam with location and wham bam. At a dig bring er to 2krpm. Let off the break and smash that throttle she goes. See the difference between you and me is I have some really good teachers who know what they're talking about. That's how I know my cam is fine and my carb is fine.
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Sep 12, 2021 | 08:19 AM
  #13  
Re: Dies from idle to wot
Quote: *smh*

The old "151" cam. Can't believe that thing is even still available.

It came in the L79. 327 in Nova and other VERY light cars of the early-mid 60s. Vettes as well: the Camaro didn't exist yet. For its day, it RIPPED. Of course, that was also the day when one could buy 101 octane gas at the corner by your house; and its reputation was solidified when the NATIONAL speed limit - meaning, NOWHERE in the US, could you exceed it - was 55 mph. Take a 2900 lb leaf spring car with a close-ratio 4-speed, put monoleafs under it with slapper bars, the widest tires you could buy in ... 1974, 4.56 gears OR HIGHER, preferably 5:13 (good old 12-bolt gears), make friends with the d00d at the local general aviation airport who would look the other way while you put av gas into something that had something other than a Lycoming 4-cyl under the hood and wouldn't collect the "highway" taxes on it, ... yeah. Ah yes, those were the days. Glad they're over.

In case you can't tell, I WAS THERE, and I DID THAT. The statute of limitations is expired so I can now admit to it.

But this is 2021. Not 1977 anymore. That 50-some-yr-old cam is A PIECE OF MONKEY EXCREMENT in 2021. I'm sorry they did that to you.

When I lived out there I used a machine shop up in Oceanside. (I lived in Carlsbad) Really good people. Can't remember their name (too many decades, not sure they're even still alive, let alone still THERE) but they were EXCELLENT. Wouldn't have sent you down that path.

You need to YANK that POS out of your engine RIGHT NOW. It's completely wrong for 2021. It wants about 2 full points more compression and more CID than you have, and WILL NOT do what it's supposed to do without it. The motor it came in rolled off the showroom floor with 11.1:1 "spec" and we all looked for ways to INCREASE it from there, to get more out of it. There's NO WAY you'll EVER get a carb to "fix" what that cam ails your motor with. GET IT OUT. NOW. First thing, before you try to do ANYTHING ELSE.

With your no-gear stock-converter no-compression no-motor 305 worthless malfunction situation, replace that outdated worthless POS with a Comp XE256. Don't even BOTHER messing with the carb until you fix that MAJOR MALFUNCTION.

Alrighty. Here's an update for you. Primary issue was the air filter housing. Had a drop housing. Killing power. Solved that. I put better plug wires on it but as expected nothing changed. 50cc squirter. I need to rejet but it's close now. Won a race the other night against a 350 with a cam intake exhaust. They said it's because their fuel pressure regulator was to low but I call bullshit based on what they claim they do with it.

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