Thinking about removing my thermostat because it stays shut sometimes. Is going without the thermostat bad for the car?

 

i wouldnt run w/o one!!

just buy a new 195 one...

 

They are cheap enough to get a new one. I wouldn't run without a thermostat in there either.

 

If you are in a real pinch yes you can run without a thermostat, but don't do it for extended periods of time... believe it or not, it can actually cause damage.

 

Yes, it could be bad. Considering where your at, you would be experinecing "over" cooling. Basically the engine in not getting warm enough to run properly and you can break things that way.

 

Seem's a silly question, at least to me. Proper operating temp for any electronically managed engine is critical for performance. If you are really worrried about the $7 for a stat my advice to you is to sell the car. Depending on the ambient temp in your area you can theoryetically run without one but she won't run quite right.

 

Not too mention COLD!!! My 89 Buick Century Stat is stuck WIDE OPEN... what a pain. The whole grill is blocked off, but I still can't get much heat. Radiator temp stays under 150F all day, highway. But it runs great. Nice and cool, makes a good deal more power. Now now, before you jump on me for not replacing the stat, its tough... I've done stats on other cars NP... but this one is wedged under the throttle body... gotta pull it off, and a bunch of other junk. Maybe this summer... but the IROC will be the daily driver then.

 

Thanks for the posts. I was wondering because when my stat gets stuck closed, I just pull over, shut the engine off to avoid overheating, put the key in the "on" position so the fan runs, wait a little while, then start the engine. The engine cools down after that, as if the stat opened up, and it runs at normal operating temp. But what if it did not open up after that? I was thinking I would remove the stat completely if it were an emergency. Thats where my question came from.

Thanks again, and yes I will replace the stat with a new one.

 

Yeah, it would be fine for an emergency... no stat is better than no coolant going through the motor. Just wouldn't go without one...

 

Guys your forgetting one important thing. Believe it or not having no thermostat can actually cause your car to overheat in traffic and other situations. I know you think im crazy but think about it? If theres no restriction ie thermostat then the water doesnt stay in the radiator long enough to cool off. Also what i do before i install ne thermostat (the traditional type as opposed to the ones that fail in the open position) I drill 2 very tiny holes in it so if it does stick youll still get cooling. later

PS your computer if you have one would also throw a code if you had a stuck open thermostat because the car would be running too cold and never go into closed loop,

 

That is true. I had no thermostat in my car for a while and it would get far too hot in traffic. The water isn't staying in the radiator long enough to be cooled properly.

 

hmmm. The fans really won't do any good if the thermostat is shut. If the stat is stuck, the radiator won't get hot(no coolant flow). Shutting off a hot engine to cool it off isn't usually a good idea. When you shut it off, the water pump stops pumping and all you end up cooling is the radiator. Anyway, new coolant and a new stat is a good way to start troubleshooting a cooling problem. Missing air dam can cause a highway overheat problem(cool down at slow speeds). Also, incorrect timing, incorrect fuel mixture, cracked head/head gasket, etc... Start with the cheap simple stuff first.

 

I agree that you should have a t stat on your engine but running without one will not cause your engine to overheat.

 

Well I didn't have one and had bad overheating problems. Fitted a 180* thermostat and my overheating issues vanished.

 

Not having a thermostat in 99.9999999% of all situations WILL casue your car to over heat. The reason being, nothing is restricting the water and there for there is not enough time for the heat that the watter carries through the radiator to transfer to the air . This means the "heat soked" coolant just keeps going into the engine and makes the car overheat. Now if your radiator is really clogged ie corrision in the pipes then MAYBE your car wouldnt overheat, but in a fully functional cooling system the car will overheat with no thermostat. This does not apply to a car with a stuck open thermostat or a tstat that you drilled holes in because there is still a restriction and in those two cases the engine will run COLD but i was talking about not having a thermostat.

 

Wrong. Do some research and get informed. Not having a t stat will NOT cause your engine to overheat. Your arguement is that you need restriction on water flow to have a efficient cooling system? So we should go out and look for water pumps that flow less instead of a high flow water pump. Check out thermodynamics.

 

Don't they sell thermostats that only stick open? Pretty sure they do... at least I'm almost absolutely sure I saw one advertising that at the local CT here.

 

"bout time someone got it right!

 

Big454blockchevy i bet you also seal the thermostat to the intake manifold with blue rtv (that wont hurt the O2 sensor). Yeah you should read about thermodynamics because you obviously have no clue how a cooling system works. Think if the water just flows through the radiator and doesnt stop while its in there (not stop completely but slow down a lot) then the heat from the water wont have enough time to transfer to the tubes of the radiator which get kooled by the air that flows by them. this is also directed to you Danno

 

are we talking about overheating engines or people here?

 

RegaPlanet i know it seems that way but i just get annoyed when ppl dont think about simple stuff like this. If you read all my posts youll see that i mention a car with a radiator that has a lot of corosion built up in it that running no tstat MIGHT not cause the car to over heat. But on a properly running car running no tstat will cause it to over heat i know because i learned it when i was in school for 4 years learning this stuff and won 1st place in newjersey for automotive service technology and 5th in the country last year. Not that im trying to say i know more than anyone but to show that im not some 10 year old trying to make a flame war. Sorry if i came off that way .

 

discussions get heated, it's no big deal as long as the majority of the content stays on topic. I totally agree with you on this. There's a reason winston cup guys run underdrive pulleys and it's not just for power. Running a waterpump at 8 grand isn't going to cool anything unless you have a swimming pool sized rad.

 

Yup they run underdrive pullies on all the accessorys (ps pump and alt) because of exactly what you said .

 

89 4mula I also get irritated when ignorant people like you make statements and have absolutely no clue as to what you are saying. This topic has been covered , stop being a lazy and do a search .

 

89 formula think about it if it is not in the rad long that means its not in the block long either. So you say it will not have enough time to transfer the heat to the rad fins, I say hogwash. If I go and touch my rad even without a t stat the rad fins will be hot so I guess that would be transferring heat to the fins If you try and tell me that if it does not stay in the block long then it does not absorb the heat I will start laughing at you non stop! Have you ever heard of thermal barrier . The constant flow will be removing this barrier from the block hence giving you a not so hot block. The greater flow will be cooling the block faster than if it was slowly flowing. Understand? Another example that someone used in another discussion like this one was , if a person falls into a cold body of water and the water is flowing at a fast pace that person will start losing body heat real fast causing that person hyperthermia alot faster than if the body of water was moving slower. I will be back with more info for you 89 for m u l a .

 

can we not just agree it's a matter of tuning... there are extremes of too slow and too fast for flow. Use a t-stat.. they are purposeful... if yer worried about it getting stuck closed then drill two or three holes in one.

 

I am not disputing the need for a t stat. What I am disputing is the MYth that an engine will over heat because you take out the themostat now that is a TOTAL lie. Now does anyone actually believe that if you had a ristriction in your rad that would be the reason you did not overheat? Does that make sense? 89 for mula thinks so.

 

I have another one for you. According to 89 formula if you are going to run without a t stat you need your rad to have a restriction so the water does not flow to fast , ok so if it is staying in the rad for a long time it means its staying in the block for the same amount of time and guess what it is getting hotter. Yes it's getting hotter (you have now a thermal barrier). Faster flow and no t stat will not allow this thermal barrier to form because it is carrying heat away from the block non stop and at a faster pace.

 

I am no expert either, but I know when I am right . And I am right on this one. Running without a t stat will not cause your engine to overheat.

 

Big454blockchevy since you think you are so smart y dont you run with out a tstat and then come back and tell me you are running fine. And how dare you say i dont know what im talking about i probably have more fbody and car experiance (keeping it to the topic) in my little pinky than you have in your whole body.
By the way tell me what kind of car you have since you know that your Right. Show me your proof. And also the thing about it staying in the engine and rad for the same time yeah thats true but its obviously going to pick up more heat in the block since it is such a radical temp change as opposed to the rad. So i think what you are saying is complete

 

Check out my sig . I will post it again. You may think what I am saying is total bs but that my friend is fact. I could care less if you believe me or not, I just wanted to set the record straight as far as your idiotic comments. The bad thing about it is someone barely getting into this great passion of ours is actually going to think what you are saying is true. And yes I dare say you do not know what you are talking about because you DON'T! Please before you post again check out what I am telling you and you will see that an engine is not going to overheat because you do not run a t stat. I know that I will not end up eating my words , do you?

 

hahahahahaha read this and weep BIg Block( which probably didnt do the work on his own cars but has money but thats a totally different story)


the book is Automotive Technology A Systems Approach 2nd edition by Jack Erjavec and Robert Scharff 1996 the page number is 254

" Today's thermostats are also designed to slow down coolant flow when they are open. This helps to prevent OVERHEATING, which CAN result from the coolant moving too QUICKLY, through the engine, to absorb enough heat."

That is quoted by very crediable people.

So are you gonna admit your wrong some time this century guy?

 

Is that all you can come back with ? I would like to see the credible people who will back up what you are saying. Oh let me guess , your neighbor who went to school for 4 yrs and now is an expert.

 

Oh, by the way I did all the work myself. What do you need to know. Also can you please write down a quote on your book that backs up your theory.

 

Check out www.stewartcomponents.com and get informed kiddo. Once again repeat with me if you want , running without a t stat will not cause my engine to overheat.

 

Strange, that a "widely acknowledged leader in the automotive cooling industry" (jack somebody from stewart) would tell a customer that it is ok to run without a thermostat, BUT qualify that statement not once (it SHOULD do better) but TWICE (FOR NOW) .
Boy o boy, he sure is standing firm in his convictions.

Go ahead and run your engine without a thermostat, maybe it will overheat, maybe it won't.

My experience and training says that an engine without a thermostat will suffer from drivability complaints, poor fuel mileage, underheating AND overheating.

The thermostat is there for a number of reasons, first and formost is to maintain a consistant engine temperature (known as operating temperature).
Restrict or SLOW the flow of coolant so it can ABSORB more heat from the engine under heavy load.
This restriction causes an increase in block water pressure, which helps keep boiling from becoming an issue, because, as we all know, if the water ain't touching the block, it ain't ABSORBING heat. Well, most of us know this, others are rather thick headed

FWIW, I work on engines that produce from 150hp and 300lb. ft. of torque up to 600 horsepower and 2000 lb. ft. of torque, and they ALL use thermostats. (actually, most of them use two).

I'm curious as to why people are having cooling issues.
My Z has a factory 195* stat, factory radiator, factory fan and clutch, a/c, some mild modifications, and the only time it even appraoches 210* is when it is 100* out and I'm beating the snot out of it on the freeway.
The rest of the time it stays right at 195*.

Who knows, maybe when I put in the 350, I'll have cooling issues, But I doubt it.
Oh, by the way, my 350 will have a 195* stat:sillylol:

 

I thought this was discussion. I am the first to admit I am no expert in fluid dynamics. 30 yrs in electronics, teaching and engineering but also 2yrs of automotive technology. I try to be open enough to get the advice of others. I have talked with an engineer whose area of expertise is in fact fluidics of all sorts. Based on the design of the small block cooling system he states there is no reason for the removal of the stat to generate an overheating issue. And in fact I have done it. Whether it was my 67 Chevelle way back when or my 89 Z you take out the stat and it simply does not get warm. Thats assuming all the cooling components are working as advertised. The amount of restriction the stat poses should not cause the engine to experience overheating. I ran without a stat when I converted to Dexcool. I flushed took out the stat and ran straight distilled water with a chemical flush agent. Under my normal driving conditions it simply would not warm up and it ran like crap. The design of the stat is to keep the temp as close to it's rating so as not to generate large swings when it opens. I won't argue that there is not some merit to your books factual statements, however under what conditions can this happen. I read statements here about this very subject and despite my personal experience did seek out an expert. I'll do some more research and post what I find. It does not have to be a pissing contest, it should be an exchange of ideas and information.

 

Ok guys well that was a quote from the text that i have because of my schooling. Now if you guys still disagree with me fine but you guys are probably the guys that time a car by advancing it till it pings and then back off a little bit. And listen bigblock why dont you keep to the topic and stop talkin about neighbors which i dont have and your knowledge whichyou dont have. I dont know what else i have to show you to proove it. Read that quote i put up its in quotes.

 

Why the attitude. My shop probably has more test equipment than most independent garages which I know how to use. There is a lot of complex factors that come into play. For instance as far as restriction, the flow varies with the size of the opening and pump speed. There is a lot of electronic information I have read in textbooks that I have not seen in the real world. Generally when statements are made you must consider variables. For instance if you left out the stat and measured flow at a given RPM it would be a constant. Put in a restrictor with a hole to limit it to half. Raise the pump speed or increase engine RPM and you are back where you started. Did you know by thickening the restrictor it also restricts flow for a given size opening. Did you know the efficiency of the rad increases as the coolant gets hotter. The restriction of the stat is what causes the engine to heat up. Look closely at a Stant thermostat, as the wax motor moves the piston to the open condition there are little wedge shaped orifices which slowly allow more coolant to flow until it is fully open. Less restriction, more flow through the rad, the engine coolant begins it's cooling cycle until the stat starts to restrict flow. Unless cooling system is a radically different design or other factors are put into play remove the stat on your TG and most likely it will never warm up. PM me if you want to discuss it more, no one especially me is doubting your knowledge however this subject can be and really is quite complex.

 

"A common misconception is that if coolant flows too quickly through the system, that it will not have time to cool properly. However the cooling system is a closed loop, so if you are keeping the coolant in the radiator longer to allow it to cool, you are also allowing it to stay in the engine longer, which increases coolant temperatures. Coolant in the engine will actually boil away from critical heat areas within the cooling system if not forced through the cooling system at a sufficiently high velocity. This situation is a common cause of so-called "hot spots", which can lead to failures. "

"Years ago, cars used low pressure radiator caps with upright-style radiators. At high RPM, the water pump pressure would overcome the radiator cap's rating and force coolant out, resulting in an overheated engine. Many enthusiasts mistakenly believed that these situations were caused because the coolant was flowing through the radiator so quickly, that it did not have time to cool. Using restrictors or slowing water pump speed prevented the coolant from being forced out, and allowed the engine to run cooler. However, cars built in the past thirty years have used cross flow radiators that position the radiator cap on the low pressure (suction) side of the system. This type of system does not subject the radiator cap to pressure from the water pump, so it benefits from maximizing coolant flow, not restricting it."



A quote from a knowledgeable individual. Even though he did not have 4 (FOUR) years of school.

 

"It is literally impossible, by themodynamic laws, to slow flow over a cool surface and increase the cooling. In fact, it's just the opposite. The exact same for heated surfaces as well. The more flow across a hot surface will remove more btu over the same unit time. And don't forget as water is heated towards it's corrected vapor point, it's ability to absorb heat is diminished significantly "

another quote

 

I am kind of posting the same quote from a previous one but it's a good one. It comes after someone who was sure you needed to reduce flow to have an efficient cooling system realized he was wrong. " The cooling system is a closed-loop system. The longer the coolant sits in the raditor, the longer in the engine as well. What happens is that water loses it's ability disproportionately to remove heat as it approaches it's corrected vapor point (boiling @ desinated pressure) which means the hotter the coolant the less heat in can carry. So in effect, an amount of water/coolant sent thru a 190 degree engine to cool it to 180 let say, carries unproportionately per unit volume more BTUs than the same amount sent thru that very same engine at 220 degrees and trying to cooling it to 210! The result of the decrease in the ability of the coolant to carry heat means more coolant is needed to make up the difference and/or the heat builds UNPROPORTIONATELY in the engine....translated, meaning.....run-a-way heat build up. Keeping the flow up is the key to keeping the coolant as cool as one can for proper heat absorbtion"

"As I stated, many have heard this myth and heartly believe this when in fact the opposite is true. This myth stems from old racing tales about engines running hot when the thermostats are completely removed from the cooling system. Then racers inserted "reducers" or "restrictors" which are ring looking orfices inserted into the thermostat housing. When they did this the engine ran cooler? This was thought to slow cooling and in affect giving time for the heat to dissipate accordingly. What was happening is that the removal of the thermostat actually set up laminar flow thru the radiator causing only the outside of the water columns to be cooled and the inside left untouched severely reducing the efficiency of the coolant reducing heat absorbtion. When the reducers were put in the system the laminar flow was disrupted and in fact turbulance was introduced to the upper hose and radiator turning every water molecule over and making the columns of coolant very even in temperature. This improved the efficiency of the coolant tremendously. ......and that's how the myth got started."

"This was one reason that I started my cooling forum and writing articles on the science of cooling to dispell such myths. "

"Thanks for not taking it the wrong way a lot of people want to argue this to the grave. My motto, you are never too old or too smart to learn is my battle cry. I certainly am still learning from these guys here!"

 

i am reminded of trying to find the perfect fan speed on my A\C controls to see which cools ME off best.. high usualy works best for me

 

I'm convinced.:hail:

 

hey guys

I have learned int he fire service that one drop of water can expand 1700 times. thats a bunch of btu's asorbed.

ne other thing that i know is that for every one pound of pressure put on water that you can raise the temp 4 more degrees till it's reaches boiling temp.

but like stated before faster coolant flow does not hurt it's ability to asorb heat okay.

tell me why that standing water will freeze @ 32 degrees and flowing water will not

the flowing water is still subjected to the same 32 degrees?

interresting thought i know that it odes not have anything to do with this thread but i was adding something else to think about .

so knowing that would it be the same way for the hot coolant flowing thru the engine asorbing heat?.

 

Please stop spreading bad information on the internet.
Anyone that knows what they're talking about knows you don't need a thermostat, and that faster flowing coolant removes more heat.
The people who designed the waterpump has it spinning faster at higher engine RPM so the coolant will flow faster and handle the increased cooling needs of the engine.
Seems like it would be common sense for some, but....

 

Uhhhhmmmm Your dad obviously didn't call you son because you were bright :lala: In Bigblock's defense I am right now driving a 98 Corvette LS-1 with no thermostat and I'm overheating so bad I would have to add hot water to take a shower in my coolant. I have to pull over and warm my stuff up. I haven't seen 200 degrees even while sitting in traffic. I have a friend that has three count them three vehicles and not a thermostat in the bunch.

So enlighten me.. what is the reason my car doesn't overheat, Mr. Wizard? :hail:

 

 

You guys are 100 percent correct i mean really. You prooved a well know author of automotive technology wrong and me and the few other people that have even stated there cars got hot in traffice without a thermostat. And i am aware some cars dont over heat with out a tstat but most do. The fieros for one i have heard not actually seen or experianced have been plagued with overheating and taking the tstat out solved the problem, but a properly engineered cooling system will over hear with out a tstat and screw you guys for telling me im spreading false info on the net that is just wrong. Whatever im done argueing with ignorant thick headed idiots im stupid for the reason that i have been trying to teach you all something but its useless you guys obviously know it all.

 

Are you really trying to explain so called "old wives tales" or just trying to show how smart you think you are. There are complex thermodynamic principles involved. I have posed this question to 2 experts, one a local engineer who is looking at the flow of the cooling system in a TG and another a Professor at my daughters school which has recruiters for GM on campus. The Prof is yet to get back, however the gist is this. Yes, there is the remote possibility that you can shove a liquid through an exchanger fast enough as to limit it's cooling ability but you would need a pump with a volume of a power plant with a radiator the size of a TG. The numbers are astronomical. Prove your point. Use ******* "drill the hole in the stat"- betcha the engine runs cooler than the stat rating! Big Block is absolutely correct, he knows his stuff. Actually my engineer friend thinks your book may have had a misprint however he does conclude there may be certain designs that may allow this to happen but they are not related to a TG. It is the same cooling system with a few variations from the 60's. I'll bet you took your stat out and it didn't get hot, that's why you are so pissed. Instead of being angry, investigate it. When you were in your 4 yrs of school didn't you ever question a subject. Did you ever look closely at the posts here about cooling problems. How many can and would be fixed without the aid of manual fan switches etc. The answer is all of them. Problem is that many people simply don't understand the basics and that is why they come here. I have spent my whole life in electronics and I have learned things right here. Hell, I have been published in magazines but i am right here discusssing this subject for the LEARNING. Pack up your ego, it's bigger than your brain. This site lately is going down the toilet from big ego's, let's get back to sharing of experience and knowledge and questioning the things we don't quite understand. That's the reason most people post!