iceman02

iTrader: (1)

Has anyone heard of the U.S. government imposing a phasing out of 134a refrigerant just like they did R-12? I heard this is to be done by 2009. And here I just converted from R-12 to 134.

dankhound

Last i heard they havent found a replacement yet. I believe that date i still a target.

black89ws6

R134a is a first generation r12 replacement. It has no ozone depletion effects, but still is a major contributor to global warming. They're currently looking for a second generation replacement, one that ideally will be both ozone safe, and non-global warning...to date, the only refrigerants meeting those criteria are hydrocarbon based, and they have the added problem of being explosive. The HC manufacturers will try to tell you they're not flammable, but then again, the tobacco companies will also tell you cigarettes dont' cause cancer...

To date, an ideal second generation replacement has not yet been found. If they don't find one, I think that deadline will be pushed back...and if not, stock up on it now. Sam's Club has R134a for $22 for a 12 can case, or $58 for a 30 pound drum. I have one of each stored away.

I have also heard rumors R134a may soon be restricted to licensed technicians, like other cfc refrigerants. I don't know how much truth there is to that, but if they do, it's not hard to get a license. If they do that, you can get an MVAC refrigeration licence for $15 at www.imaca.org if you pass the online OPEN BOOK (PDF) exam. Once you do that, you can legally buy all automotive refrigerants, and you can do ac work for compensation ($$).

FAST RS

Once i pass that test i can go an purchase R-12??? Is it a ligit licence liek if i walk into a autopart store and show them they will be oh ok etc? The test seems almsot too easy to pass.

black89ws6

Yeah. That's the real EPA certification. It is an open book test, but that doesn't mean it's a cake walk.

However, if you know how to use the search function built into adobe...you can find the answer pretty quick. It's the real deal.

FAST RS

Im gonna read all the info and take the test tommorw. Since i cant buy R-12 in Cali would it be legal for me to purchase it in mexico and when i ocme through customs show them my cert card to bring it into the US?

black89ws6

Depends on your feelings about certain things. Like jail. There is only one legal way to import R12. Drive your car to mexico, have it charged there, and drive it back. Anything else is not legal.
If you get licensed, it should be legal for you to buy it in california, unless california has banned it altogether (even for licensed technicians). I don't live in CA, so I can't say I know the answer.

vampiroc

hehe gotta love corporate imbecilles. they probably didn't know that "inflammable" means extremely flammable and IMflammable means it's not flammable

black89ws6

yeah, i never really understood that one either.

You would think flammable and inflammable would mean opposite things, wouldn't ya?

I've got a couple cans of that HC stuff. I'm going to try it out once, just so I can see how it works (just not in my fbody). I think I'll put out my cigarette when I charge it though...hehe.

Toehead

did you ever try one of the hydrocarbon brands? My f-body needs a top off on its r-12, the compressor still turns on, it just cycles every 3 seconds or so. I was thinking about going with enviro safe, which is hydrocarbon based. I would call up a local a/c guy, and see if he wants the r-12 out of my system. Once the system is r-12 free and purged, a can of oil, and some charge and I should be back in business.

ringo234

I have a license but R12 is real expensive because it's no longer being manufactured, and only reclaimed and old stock is available.

tough87

This topic really strikes a nerve with nerve with me. The government busy bodies tell us we can't have R-12 because it depleates the ozone and causes "global warming". The "ozone" is a high altitude layer of O-3 (three oxygen atoms bonded together) as opposed to the O-2 we breath. What most people forget to realize is that freon such as R-12 is heavier than air; so even though it may be able to destroy O-3 gas, how would it get up to the upper atmosphere. Besides, where is the supposed hole in the ozone? Is it over North America? No, it's over Antartica. Must mean that the penquins are the worst pollutors on the planet. Or it could be a highly active volcano down there releasing Megatons of pollutants on a constant basis. What the rabid environmentalist don't want you to know is that volcanic eruptions release way more pollutants and ozone delpleting gasses than all of us ever could. Now lets talk about global warming. Geological records indicate that the earth went through many warming and cooling periods without any human technology causing it. We are being told that the use of hydrocarbon fuel and refrigerants is causing, or will cause, the earth's surface temperature to rise. Why is it they want to focus on these possible causes instead of others? Lets take a look at solar flare activity. If the sun is putting off more heat, would that not increase our surface temperatures? How about volcanoes? Would eruptions, especially underwater ones, not bring more heat up from the earth's interior and effect climates?

Ever notice the "solution" to these problems involves more restrictions on you, less liberty for you, more expense for you, and more power for them. Ever notice that the same politicians that put restrictions on us, ride around in streched limos and private jets. When my wife and I took a foriegn vacation, we flew commercial, packed in a jet plane with a whole bunch of other people. But when someone like a president travels, he flies on his own Air Force One. But along with that there's a press corp jet and several military fighter jet escorts. If someone has enough of their own wealth to pay for a private jet and a stretched limo; it's fine with me as long as they don't tell me I shouldn't set up my Camaro the way I want to.

net_coma

iTrader: (3)

The hole is the empty place behind the eyes of the global warming community. Mixture of network tv and cnn watchers, the self serving (Al baby), the uninformed, the hug a tree kiss a duck community and those with nothing better to worry about. If that lot would disconnect their electricity, park their cars and live naked so as to conserve energy maybe the earth will chill...heck, I know I would.

Of course the only place global warming can be corrected is the good old USA. It is ok for China, Mexico and others including the third world nations to use r-12, spew polution into the air under the cover of developing countries while we pay the bills for something that even the duck kissers admit will have litte to no impact on the problem as they see it...wonder if they are aware that the sun is hotter than in the past...probably so but that does not get them face time on the tube, does not get them published and does not provide for speaking engagements.

Oh...speaking of spewing...I will be quiet again for now...well these are the same folks that brought us acid rain and poluted water tables in New England via the summer blend now exchanged for the gasahol...(another way to extract $ from my wallet and to provide a farm subsidity...to ADM and others not Maw and Paw farmers)
Ok now I will stop.

tough87

net_coma:

Hey brother, nice to find someone else who can (throw out the flag).

Do you remember the global warming conference in Kyoto in the 90's. Al and friends came from all over the world to discuss this. They flew big jet planes in from all over the world to have a self glorification party where they say our cars are the problem. When China was asked, "what will you be doing to help?" China answered, "we are exempt, because we are developing". "When will you start participating?" China answers, "we will always be developing".

I work at an electric power plant. People build houses near the plant and then complain about the noise. The plant was built in the late 1940's. Back then oily waste water went straight into the river and no one cared what went out the smoke stack. That was irresponsible, but now we've gone from that extreme to now we can't do anything without a stack of paperwork and we have all kinds of expensive emissions control equipment installed. Fart the wrong way and you'll be filling out a report.

Al Gore is clearly a self-serving tree hugger, but I thought Bush and Cheney were suppose to be energy/oil industry guys. So why are we still using so much foreign oil at such high prices? We have enough domestic oil available that we could be self sufficient if we'd just drill and pump it, and build some more refineries. Where is the leadership for energy independence? Instead all we're getting "you people need to conserve, while I ride around on Air Force One and stretched limos."

If you really want to learn the things we're not being told about oil, get the book "Black Gold Stranglehold". It will blow your mind.

net_coma

iTrader: (3)

We are still buying oil from other countries because congress again refused to allow domestic drilling including the Gulf of Mexico. Mexico can drill off our shores but we can not. Nothing will change until the sheepeople become aware and hold our "representatives" accountable and I am not holding my breath until this happens. (acountable is to vote them out of office in the primary...every primary until they start to remember that they work for us not for the power brokers and lobbiests) Next Senate hearings take a look on the back wall at the "aids" looks more like babe row, another benifit that we pay for.

I work at the local nuclear power plant and when the plant was built the town was very small. Now the town has a new school, golf course, new housing developments and only a matter of time before the new residents that bought a new house 3/4 of a mile away start to voice concerns about the dangers of the plant. Don't build new nuclear plants, don't burn coal, don't burn gas and heavens no! don't build refineries or drill for oil!

tough87

net_coma:

You work at a power plant too??? Cool man, we come from a similar angle. You said nuclear; did you get started in your career as a Navy nuke. I did (machinist mate), but not working in nuclear anymore. I thought about going back into nuclear, but I'm don't want the politics and rectal security.

I sometimes wonder if those energy policies are enacted to keep us peasants in our place.

net_coma

iTrader: (3)

Yes I started on Ray SSN 653 out of Charleston. Two trips to the Med and two to the North Atlantic. September of 76 collision with a mountain @ 16 kts and 400 ft. Used to be a picture of her in the Charleston yards before repairs started but Don Sheldon took down his web site. Damage was not as bad as the San Fransisco but almost put us on the bottom. Had a reunion this time last year and was first time to see the crew in over 20 years...was great as we again tried to drink all the beer in the world in one weekend.

tough87

I was on the Enterprise CVN 65, out of Norfolk; did two med cruises (98-99 and 2001). I did do my prototype training on the once a boomer, now a trainer, Sam Rayburn in Charleston. You mention the 'frisco; one of the guys I work with was in m-div on there, late 80's and early 90's. We amuse our co-workers with our M-div antics. Not to make you feel old, but ya'll wrecked a submarine the same year I was born.

net_coma

iTrader: (3)

Well truth be known I did 4 years in the Air Force was out for three years and then joined the navy in late 75...yeah the years are stacking up but most have been fun and it happens to us all in time.

NINÅ

coolram62

iTrader: (2)

This is another bone to add to the mix on refrigerants.The patents a certain corporation had on certain refrigerants,R12 being one of them,which expired about the time the "problem" of CFC's being part of the cause of ozone depletion.A study was initiated by the manufactures and handed to the EPA stating a new series of refrigerants,which they happen to have developed,need to be phased in to protect the enviroment.Tough87 makes a good point on the makeup of Ozone and CFC's.You wonder how a heavier than air gas can affect the middle atmosphere of the planet.And once released it breaks down into it's base elements and disperses into the atmoshpere.

As for the importing of oil our major supplier is Canada not the Middle east as most suppose.And I agree we have enough untapped reserves to not import oil.But labor costs and the red tape the oil companies have to deal with cut into thier bottom line of which just one of them posted a $16 BILLION dollar profit last year.We have the technology now to drill and do it so to protect the ecological balance of the arera.

Iv'e worked for the Federal goverment for the last 20 years and I understand the reason why we have so many lawyers.And all the while when you win a goverment contract to say build a building - you're low bid and use obsolete or discounted parts that on the surface meet design requirements.Then you only warranty your work for 1 year.Anyone can go buy a toaster and get a 2 year warranty.Not to mention what it takes to get warranty work done.

And mention CNSYD brings back memories.There's another victim to politics and red tape.

net_coma

iTrader: (3)

I agree with all of that also.

tough87

Yes, we do get more oil from Canada, but Canada tends to be more stable than some of the middle eastern states. Small changes in Canadian politics don't cause the same speculation in oil prices. The high cost of producing our own oil is by design. I still highly recomend the book, "Black Gold Stranglehold". It will blow your mind with what you were never told about oil. Very well researched with detailed footnotes.

IROC212

iTrader: (1)

Just a side note. My roomate had his a/c recharged in Mexico a couple of years ago. Came home with what smelled like Propane in it, didn't want to check if it was flammable. He had a leak at the evaporator, and was leaking into the dash. Just be careful, never can tell what you get.

abray1

I am a HVAC contractor and trust me it is all about MONEY. I used 414B in my IROC for a while now I use freeze 12 and it works great. You don't have to convert like you do with 134. The biggest difference with cars originally equipped with 134 is the condenser is a lot bigger than a car with r12. 134 will cool but it isn't as good as it should be. freeze 12 is the way to go.

coolram62

iTrader: (2)

I agree with Abray about using Freeze12 in an R12 system as opposed to converting to 134A.It does an excellent job of cooling very comparable to R12.I've used it in several R12 vehicles and it's done very will with now problems.My '83 Z28 was converted to 134A before I got her.I'm thinking seriously of retrofitting for Freeze12 since the compressor has locked up on her.You still should evacuate the system,can flush for good measure,and definitly add fresh oil.
As Abray states the biggest factor is the size of the condensor,evaporator too.Both are larger due to the fact 134A operates at different pressures.Right there is the main point for loss of coolant efficency.And has a higher head pressure than R12 that's why all factory systems have high pressure switches as well as low pressure switches.How many have converted and been disappointed with the cooling results even on the highway with a good amount of airflow over the condensor and radiator.

IROZINCO

iTrader: (1)

So do i understand you correctly that you CAN use the freeze 12 stuff in an r-12 system? I thought that stuff was flammable or something. I've been searching and scraping trying to find regular old freon to keep my (5) old cars a/c charged up. Is there something special you have to do to use the Freeze 12???

Slow2.8

i just bought the freeze 12 today off of ebay, looks like nothing else is need, I got 3 cans, leak stop, and oil for 55 $ shipped $

net_coma

iTrader: (3)

The threaded connection on the can is different. I could not find a hose that is freeze12 on one end and r12 on the other. What I did was use the ring that pierces the side of the r12 can...after removing the ridges and a little more of the plastic it worked. Not sure that memory is correct but I thought it was enough r12 to carry the oil and the rest is 134a. If I am not correct one of you guys that works with AC systems please correct me.

Slow2.8

The kit I bought off ebay comes with the hose that connects to the bottle and to the car. Also sold separately.

abray1

For automotive use I use the ring that pierces the can. You actually use about 10 to 20% less freeze 12 than R12. In my 89 and 92 if memory serves you use a little over two cans of R12 which figures out two roughly two cans of freeze 12. Actually all systems are a little fickle and I like to use the hand to the vent method to get it just right. Factors like compressor strentgh, mashed condensor fins and other variables determine exactly how much one needs. The reason our cars leak is usually due to the seals in the compressor being worn. If people will buy a new compressor that will solve over 90% of the leaks in my opinion. It is he same on 88-95 chevy trucks that use the same basic type compressor the F-bodys use. I have also found you can take your duct work out and use silicone around the joints to get better airflow. I am sure there are stronger fan motors that will bolt in as well. There are many tricks. Insulate the accumulator and that helps a ton.