Ok so I live in Ohio and lately the weather has been in the 90's and it is just absolutely dreadful in my car. I took it to a dealer and they said my car takes freon that is now banned and illegal? He said it would cost 400$ to put on the conversion kit for the freon used today. Now...is this really necessary?

What kind of freon does my car take?
Can I purchase it anywhere?
Is it actually illegal?
Any other cheaper conversions?
I personally love to be cold...so I am literally MISERABLE!!!! Please help me guys I don't trust dealers...

If you need any other details please ask because i need my ac! :'(

 

yea i hear u....i have a vert..and i just tore it out..but my cusin is trying to tear his out it has a diff design then mine his stuck...i told him to put it back together and pay the money for repair otherwise research or get help...i think there are kits online....

 

The dealer quoted you $400 because they make a lot of money by converting air conditioning systems to the newer style (R-134a).

Your car originally took R-12.....R-12 has been banned for new production since the mid 1990's. That doesn't mean it's illegal to put in your car. It just means that they aren't making any more of it. It can still be bought by individuals, although you'd need to have an EPA 609 card. ($20, good for lifetime, open book test). At the time when R-12 stopped being made, people hoarded it for the future. But at this point in the game, most old cars are either crushed, been converted to R-134a, or simply not using the A/C. As such, R-12 is easily available to purchase online. Not too likely to see it in stores these days though. Simply put, there is very little demand for R-12 these days.

You have a few options.

1) Convert it to R-134a. Expensive at first. But from then on in, it's easy to deal with in terms of repair shops. Can easily buy it in stores (no license needed). Performance won't be as good as R-12 was. But for Ohio's climate, it shouldn't be that bad. Down in AZ, TX, FL, the performance of it won't keep up. Pretty much all cars from 1995 on are R-134a from the factory. But newer cars are built with A/C system designs that our cars didn't have.

2) Get your license and get some R-12. You'll need gauges, some reading/learning. Any automotive shop should be able to put it in for you if you'd rather do it that way. Dealerships probably won't. Shops won't make much money doing this for you. That's the only reason why the dealer doesn't want to do R-12.

3) There are alternative refrigerants out there. I use Autofrost with phenomenal success. Fast355 uses Envirosafe with the same over the top cooling success. Both are fully compatible with the oil in your vehicle's A/C right now.......Hot Shot is similar to Autofrost, but can run into trouble moving the oil through the system. Freeze 12 is another alternative, but it's performance will be slightly worse than converting to R-134a. It's a poor man's conversion.

The only downside to #3 above is that you would have to deal with future A/C related issues yourself if one were to arise. Shops don't like dealing with anything that isn't R-12 or R-134a. That's because they typically only have 2 recycling tanks in their shops. One for R-12 and one for R-134a.

 

My local pep-boys sells it for $55 a can. Gotta have the licence though.

 

@ Reid...

So I'm thinking about going with the alternatives. Autofrost to be specific, after doing a bit of research it seems all I would have to do is buy a small kit and the autofrost itself.
http://www.cooltop.net/autofrost.html

That is where I was reading, would this fit on my car and could I use this?

 

@ Reid

Or could I just buy the R-12?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2-Can...Q5fAccessories

 

Both have their merits.

R-12 would be the easiest. All you may need is a simple top up. Keep the 2nd can for later on. Performance will be great. I'm assuming your car will run the A/C right now, but cycle too much, giving you poor cooling.

Autofrost (R-406a) requires you to recycle the R-12 (any shop can do this), run a vacuum for 30-60 minutes. And then put 3 cans in. Performance will be R-12 on steroids.

Legally, you can't add R-406a to a vehicle that still has R-12 in it (EPA 609 rules). Physically there is nothing stopping you from doing this. The US military did tests back in the early 1990's with Humvees, using 25/50, 50/50, 75/25 mixes of R-12 and R-406a. Compatibility issues were zero. Performance was better, the higher the ratio of R-406a. Both R-12 and R-406a use mineral oil (which is what R-12 cars came from the factory with). No oil change is necessary with either solution.

Environmentally, the Autofrost will be better. It's an HCFC. R-12 is a CFC. The difference is that an HCFC has a hydrogen atom in it. The hydrogen atom will cause it to break down in sunlight before it can reach the ozone layer. Now in the case of a leaky car, the R-12 can simply be topped up. Autofrost since it's a blend of 3 different components in theory should be re-done from scratch. In reality, it can be topped up with no noticeable differences. Autofrost if it leaks out a bit, drops down to R-12 performance levels. The R-22 in Autofrost would be the first thing to leak out, meaning that pressure levels in the system will drop down a bit. (A/C would cycle more often but still cool you quite satisfactorily) No dangers of the mixture causing harm to the system if the ratios were off.

I live in south Texas and have a black car/black leather. So for me, I wanted the best system possible. I run Autofrost. If I lived farther north and had a lighter coloured car, I might have just gone with R-12. It's your call really. With Autofrost, any future repairs would be up to you since autoshops don't want to touch anything that isn't R-12 or R-134a.

R-134a if you were wondering is an HFC. No chlorine in the mixture. Zero ozone worries, but is a high global warming refrigerant.

As far as duct temps go, R-12 is usually good for high 30's to 40'ish degrees. R-134a is 45-50°F. Autofrost is low 30's and even high 20's if you want. I have Florida grade humidity to deal with here. So the low temps really take the humidity out of the air. When I lived in Canada, I'd use Autofrost for 5-10 minutes and then switch to VENT. The car was cold enough inside that my hands would start to go numb and I'd be cold. In Texas, it stays on MAX A/C all summer long.

The "small kit" for Autofrost isn't much. You get a (cheap) R-12 can tap, a sticker, and a blue service port valve for your accumulator. The blue valve has the same threads as an R-12 service port valve. This means you can simply keep your old stock service ports on the system (illegal as you're supposed to put a unique coloured valve on there, but it could be done. I will admit, it's a much nicer shade of blue than the R-134a unique service ports ).....A much MUCH better R-12 can tap is the one HERE This is the kind that I use. It has a nice rubber O-ring on the bottom of it that keeps refrigerant from leaking. And a nicer **** for turning as opposed to those cheaply made levers that come on other R-12 can taps. I'd use this for either Autofrost or R-12.

 

@ R-12 would be the easiest. All you may need is a simple top up. Keep the 2nd can for later on. Performance will be great. I'm assuming your car will run the A/C right now, but cycle too much, giving you poor cooling.

So all I would have to do is buy the two cans I posted from eBay and just put one in for now? And what do you mean cycle too much giving me poor cooling? Would I still need the tap if I used the r-12 cans?

 

Yes, you'd need the can tap to open the R-12 can.

Realistically you still need some gauges or at the very least a low-side gauge to see what the pressures are.

If you're low on refrigerant, the A/C compressor will cycle on/off/on/off too often. You'd notice this as a kicking motion while driving the car as well as hearing it click on and off quite rapidly. Since the system would have such a short run time, it wouldn't spend enough time cooling. Adding more refrigerant allows the pressures to stay high enough that it won't cycle off as often. Of course you don't want too much in there either. An overcharge will mean that it won't cool very well either. And it's hard on the system. Chances are if it's cycling too often, you'll need one full can.

 

Sorry but please bear with me I really appreciate your help, but this gauge thing is really throwing me off. As far as I knew, which isn't much ... all I would have to do was fill it up and you're talking about gauges and things? I mean if I'm just topping off what already originally comes in my car, the r-12, why do I need gauges? If I do need them then why aren't they already stock on my car?

 

any updates?

 

Ah yes, what I'm referring to are "air conditioning manifold gauges." See picture below.



This is a picture of R-134a gauges, but R-12 uses the same idea. (the temperatures at various pressures will be slightly different, but not enough to make much of a difference)

When these are hooked up to a car, there would be a blue hose hooked up below the left gauge.....The other end of the blue hose would hook up the accumulator (the big silver cylinder under the hood of your car). This measures the low-side pressure......In other words, it's telling you how cold the system is getting. These are low psi numbers. Like 20-50 psi.

There would be a red hose hooked up below the right side gauge. (Notice the two pressure gauges are both blue and red as well)....The other end of that would go the small schrader valve that's near the accumulator on our cars. This measures the high-side pressure......This measures how much heat is being sent away from the system, out to the condenser out in front of the radiator. These are high psi numbers. Like 150-300 psi.

There would also be a yellow hose that hooks up to the center of the manifold gauges. This hose allows refrigerant to flow into the gauges and into the vehicle's system. You would hook one end of the yellow hose to the manifold gauges and the other end to the refrigerant can.

The two silver ***** on the manifold gauges open and close the flow of refrigerant to the service port (the center port) each from their respective sides. With both ***** closed, you can take psi readings from the low pressure side (left blue gauge) and high pressure side (right red gauge) of the car. Nothing will flow through the center service port. You wouldn't even need to hook up the yellow hose to do this.

If you were to open the left silver ****, refrigerant would flow from the accumulator, through the blue hose into the manifold gauge, and then to the center service port. If the center port isn't hooked up to anything, refrigerant will hiss out the center port to the atmosphere. (Don't do this).

Similarly, if you opened the right silver ****, refrigerant would flow from the high side schrader valve, through the red hose into the manifold gauge and then to the center service port. Again, this is going to leak refrigerant to the atmosphere......So the only time you want to open the **** is when the yellow hose is hooked up to a can of refrigerant. This allows everything I just described to happen in reverse. The refrigerant flows from the can to the manifold and then through the low side service port (blue hose) and into the accumulator.

I CAN NOT stress enough that when charging refrigerant into a car to only use the low side. Keep the high side silver **** CLOSED! The high side has too high of pressure and will explode the can, causing serious injury. The low side doesn't have this problem. The only and I mean only time you can put refrigerant in through the high side is when the engine is turned off. Pressures will be the same on either the low or the high side then. But when the engine is on, you must must must only use the low side. For safety's sake, I'd recommend using the low side only, regardless of whether the engine is on or off.

Also wear some safety goggles. If you're hit by a stream of refrigerant, you can freeze your cornea. This results in permanent blindness.

Now the above is with 3 hoses (blue, yellow, red) and 2 pressure gauges (low-side and high-side)....A cheaper way is to pick up a hose that has a built in pressure gauge. These are available at any automotive store. They will just tell you what the low side pressure is only. If you go this route, get one that actually has numbers on it. Not just a colour coded good or bad section.

If you turn on the air conditioning on our cars, the compressor will turn on if the system has about 45 psi or more on the low side gauge. It will turn off the compressor at about 25 psi (to prevent freezing). This is both temperature dependent and pressure dependent. Minnesota in winter will have temperatures so low that the A/C pressure might be 10 psi. So turning on the A/C or the defroster will mean that the compressor will stay off. It's simply not warm enough to get to the 45 psi turn on point. This is why cars generally won't turn on the A/C when you select Defrost on the dash and it's below 40°F outside.

In south Texas where I live, the low side psi is more like 120 psi when the car is sitting there off. Or driving down the street with it on VENT. Switching on the A/C will immediately turn on the compressor. (since it's well above 45 psi) And it will stay on until it hits 25 psi. That may happen once every 20 minutes this time of year. It might happen once every couple of minutes. Depends on traffic, time of day etc. It may never get to 25 psi and consequently the compressor won't cycle off.

Now this is where the balancing act comes into place. An air conditioning system that has too little refrigerant will easily compress it. The low side gauge will bounce between 45 psi and 25 psi very rapidly. The compressor will click on/off/on/off in rapid succession. Since the system is running such short cycles, it won't have a chance to cool you. It would be like switching between A/C and VENT on the dash board every 10 seconds. You'd never cool off. It's also hard on the compressor when it's rapidly cycling like that.

On the other hand, if you have too much refrigerant in there, the compressor will have a hard time compressing the refrigerant. The low side will stay in the 50 psi level and never come down to 30 or 25 psi. (Remember, low psi = cold and high psi = hot) Duct temperatures will be warm. And it's hard on the compressor and on hoses. It's simply filled beyond capacity.

So this is the reason that it's nice to see where the pressures are with a manifold gauge or at least one of those gauges in a hose type setups. If it's dropping down and cycling frequently, idling in your driveway in the summertime, it's too low. If it's settled at 30 psi, you might be a bit low. If it's sitting at 35-40 psi, you should be good. (MAX A/C, coldest setting inside the car). There is no exact rule for determining the perfect psi. Because two cars that are filled to the same refrigerant capacity will have different readings if one car is in Seattle and the other car is in Phoenix. The Phoenix car might read 50 psi and be perfect. The Seattle car might read 30 psi and be perfect.

 

So basically what you're saying is the gauges are just going to tell me precisely how much r-12 is in the car and how much I would need to put in, correct? I hope...

Now if what I said is right, would an auto shop who does air conditioning work do this for me? For instance, if I took it back to the dumbass who told me r-12 was illegal and said that it would cost "1000$ a pound if I found it anywhere on this planet" would they have this gauge and know how much exactly to put in if I did provide them with the r-12 that I'm gonna buy on ebay?

 

If you can find R12, go with R12. The old and new are not compatible 100%. Yes, they can purge the system. no, they will not get all of it. The two will eat seals, and probably lunch the compressor. And both are flammable in a catastropic failure sort of event. (the new stuff is even more flammable).

(tinfoil hat mode) A company can only patent something for so long. Dow held the papers on R12. When that ran out, amazingly, they outlawed R12, and "approved" a new replacement.. which, coincidentally, Dow also owns.

You do the math.

Find your local small shop. go ask them if they can do a recharge on R12. You might get lucky.

 

In a town of 1800, my local shop was able to charge an R12 system. Same here in Lawrence. I'd get on the phone.

JamesC

 

I went around to about 10 shops today and none of them would even think about doing it. They sounded literally scared when I asked about it...

Do you guys know of any shops that still consistently work with r-12?

 

Try an HVAC shop, rather than auto shop? If anyone still has R12, it's gonna be them.

 

It's too bad you didn't live closer. I'd do it myself for you. Yes, all automotive shops should have a manifold gauge to do air conditioning. Heck at a $1,000/lb, offer to let them keep the 2nd can and let them put the other one in your car for free.

The only thing they have to be scared of is losing out on a $400 conversion.

An HVAC shop might have better luck. Bring cash. There are still lots of fridges and pop machines out there that run R-12. I don't know why automotive shops would make this such a big deal. The EPA 609 certification is not exactly rocket science. Pretty much anybody can get it with a night's worth of reading. And it's only $20 to take the test. Heck, the test is open book!