What kind of aftermarket EFI do you have??
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From: Marion, Iowa
Car: 92 Camaro
Engine: ZZ4 Crate Engine w/Hot Cam
Transmission: Rebuilt 700R4 with Transgo and MW 3
Axle/Gears: 3.73 Eaton Posi
What kind of aftermarket EFI do you have??
I want to install an aftermarket (not GM) EFI system on my ZZ4.
Those of you that have EFI, what system did you go with and why? (Price, MPFI vs TBI, HP Capability, programmability, user-friendliness, compatibility with stock electronics, etc.)
In my application, I want to keep the price under $2400, Torque is more important than HP, and it must be easily programmable w/a laptop.
Please let me know what system you chose and why...
Thanks
Those of you that have EFI, what system did you go with and why? (Price, MPFI vs TBI, HP Capability, programmability, user-friendliness, compatibility with stock electronics, etc.)
In my application, I want to keep the price under $2400, Torque is more important than HP, and it must be easily programmable w/a laptop.
Please let me know what system you chose and why...
Thanks
Last edited by mdricken; Dec 13, 2003 at 01:43 PM.
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From: Cincinnati
Car: 1987 GTA
Engine: PT88 Turbo DART 406
Transmission: th400
Axle/Gears: 9" ford
I use FAST.... I like that its WB02 and that its fairly easy to tune... It uses GM sensors and was pretty starightforward... I hate accel and their DFI is over 3Grand if you add the WB02 option.If Im spending #g or better Id run electromotive or a smaller MOTEC unit...
I was looking at electromotive TEC3 system...Id rather have that BUT they still have yet to release the wide band O2 version....I like it because it uses coil packs and crank trigger ignition instead of distributor... But that system in a WB02 version would definately kill a $2400 budget.. But I see myself switching whenever they release the WB02 version...
I was looking at electromotive TEC3 system...Id rather have that BUT they still have yet to release the wide band O2 version....I like it because it uses coil packs and crank trigger ignition instead of distributor... But that system in a WB02 version would definately kill a $2400 budget.. But I see myself switching whenever they release the WB02 version...
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From: Marion, Iowa
Car: 92 Camaro
Engine: ZZ4 Crate Engine w/Hot Cam
Transmission: Rebuilt 700R4 with Transgo and MW 3
Axle/Gears: 3.73 Eaton Posi
Those are good options except for NOW I heard Holley is making their Stealth ram system with WB02s.
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From: Cincinnati
Car: 1987 GTA
Engine: PT88 Turbo DART 406
Transmission: th400
Axle/Gears: 9" ford
I looked into Holley But honestly when I talked to their tech guy about what I was wanting/trying to do I did not get ANY answers that made me feel comfortable with the product...That was when they first launched it.... I was interested PURELY on COST... but their tech guys did not impress me in the least... On the other hand when dealing with E-motive they were very helpfull and FAST guys were very helpfull as well and understood NON CONVENTIONAL setups...
ACCEL's strong point is the fact that there are TONS of places that are certified to tune DFI...
Also not a slam on Holley as I know the product was fairly new when I asked BUT still did not leave me with a good feeling about what they had to offer in terms of technical support...
I also Gauge the systems on WHO...that runs VERY FAST CARS uses them... Like Show me a 6 Second EFI car that uses the Product... FAST, DFI, E-Motive, and MOTEC I can Give you a PHONE BOOK full of names... Holley...at this point I have not heard of anyone....Not to say they are not out there...AGAIN Im basing this on WHEN I WAS IN THE MARKET>>>The only advantage I saw was the COST TO PLAY....them being one of the LOWEST next to haltech which was the cheapest at the time...
ACCEL's strong point is the fact that there are TONS of places that are certified to tune DFI...
Also not a slam on Holley as I know the product was fairly new when I asked BUT still did not leave me with a good feeling about what they had to offer in terms of technical support...
I also Gauge the systems on WHO...that runs VERY FAST CARS uses them... Like Show me a 6 Second EFI car that uses the Product... FAST, DFI, E-Motive, and MOTEC I can Give you a PHONE BOOK full of names... Holley...at this point I have not heard of anyone....Not to say they are not out there...AGAIN Im basing this on WHEN I WAS IN THE MARKET>>>The only advantage I saw was the COST TO PLAY....them being one of the LOWEST next to haltech which was the cheapest at the time...
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From: Northern California
Accel DFI Gen 6. Used it on my nitroused 615 Big Chief pro mod motor with 15:1 compression running high 7's to my 9 sec IROC with a Vortech R-trim. Why spend thousands on the wideband boxes when you can make the same power with a plain 'ol Gen6? It's not the box, it's the tuner.
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Originally posted by 9secIROC
Why spend thousands on the wideband boxes when you can make the same power with a plain 'ol Gen6? It's not the box, it's the tuner.
Why spend thousands on the wideband boxes when you can make the same power with a plain 'ol Gen6? It's not the box, it's the tuner.
I have a 385 dollor TE v2.0 wbo2 unit with a 350 dollor new holley commander tbi kit (gotta love ebay*$1299 retail) in a new crate engine I won christmas eve 2002 off ebay for 65 bucks(no joke) running the new holley pro software wbo2 compatible I got upgraded for free by Doug F at holley. Im not bragging , wait yes I am
Cant forget to add breaking the motor in driving laps around I270 and havent been shot at once!
Last edited by 614Streets; Dec 17, 2003 at 09:58 PM.
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I use a DFIV7. and I burn my own chips. I always use a wide band
o2 to do my tune. I do not run my car in closed loop and do take the o2 off after. L1H1 ntk sensors are getting a little pricey. You can buy a wideband o2 from a few different suppliers but it saves a ton of guess work. There was some posts a couple of weeks back, on a new wide band setup for around $355.00. The commander system is a little cheaper but it depends on what you are looking for.
o2 to do my tune. I do not run my car in closed loop and do take the o2 off after. L1H1 ntk sensors are getting a little pricey. You can buy a wideband o2 from a few different suppliers but it saves a ton of guess work. There was some posts a couple of weeks back, on a new wide band setup for around $355.00. The commander system is a little cheaper but it depends on what you are looking for.
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The good thing about widebands is you can tune any car that you weld a bung in. fi or carbed
I also have the accel one so I can read it right on the laptop as it is plugged in to the dfiv7 box.
The accel one also can be used stand alone.
I also have the accel one so I can read it right on the laptop as it is plugged in to the dfiv7 box.
The accel one also can be used stand alone.
Last edited by RBob; Dec 20, 2003 at 06:06 PM.
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From: Newark, DE
Car: '86 Camaro, '02 WRX, '87 K5, '67
Engine: 350 TPI, 2.0turbo, 383 in the works, 289-4BBL, 232, A-head 4-cylinder
Transmission: T56, 5-speed, 700R4, C4, T176, semi-auto 2-speed
Axle/Gears: 3.73, 3.90, 4.88, 3.55, 3.54, 7.00
I ran an older version of the Accel DFI on my truck and wasn't happy with it in the least. The resolution was poor, the interface problematic, and the software really out of date. Granted that was several years ago and I hear they've finally improved their product to work with modern operating systems.
A lot of people run the FAST system and love it. Ditto for the Tec II and Tec III systems.
There is also a super cheap way to get EFI if you have a decent electronics background. There's a kit you can buy from an internet site called the Megasquirt. Basically you build your own ECM and then write your own code in assembly language. It's pretty easy to modify the system to any needs if you have a good enough understanding of electronic engineering.
Eventually I think I'm going to convert my car to a factory style Ford ECIV system. I have a lot of experience with them, they are very tolerant of modifications, and still have all the sophistication of a factory system. Plus I'll get the ability to swap injectors without the hassle of burning a new chip every time, as long as I swap the sample tube in the mass air (assuming I use the C&L meter, which I would).
There are enough ZZ4s out there that you shouldn't really need a wideband O2. Widebands are great if you have a totally custom application that needs air/fuel readings way outside the limits of a stock sensor, but for your goals I think it is overkill. You should be able to contact TPIS, or the manufacturer of the EFI you chose and get ballpark A/F tables for your application that will just require fine tuning.
I would go for port EFI right off the bat. There realy isn't much difference in torque production between TBI and port systems, but TBIs are limited on top end power production. plus TBI and TPI systems are bank to bank, which will never be as good as sequential injection.
My advice is to read a couple of books on EFI to really familiarize yourself with the terminology and how the system works before you make a purchase. I feel that this is a great way to ensure that you get everythign you want and nothing that you don't need. Oh, and feel free to PM me if you have any further questions.
A lot of people run the FAST system and love it. Ditto for the Tec II and Tec III systems.
There is also a super cheap way to get EFI if you have a decent electronics background. There's a kit you can buy from an internet site called the Megasquirt. Basically you build your own ECM and then write your own code in assembly language. It's pretty easy to modify the system to any needs if you have a good enough understanding of electronic engineering.
Eventually I think I'm going to convert my car to a factory style Ford ECIV system. I have a lot of experience with them, they are very tolerant of modifications, and still have all the sophistication of a factory system. Plus I'll get the ability to swap injectors without the hassle of burning a new chip every time, as long as I swap the sample tube in the mass air (assuming I use the C&L meter, which I would).
There are enough ZZ4s out there that you shouldn't really need a wideband O2. Widebands are great if you have a totally custom application that needs air/fuel readings way outside the limits of a stock sensor, but for your goals I think it is overkill. You should be able to contact TPIS, or the manufacturer of the EFI you chose and get ballpark A/F tables for your application that will just require fine tuning.
I would go for port EFI right off the bat. There realy isn't much difference in torque production between TBI and port systems, but TBIs are limited on top end power production. plus TBI and TPI systems are bank to bank, which will never be as good as sequential injection.
My advice is to read a couple of books on EFI to really familiarize yourself with the terminology and how the system works before you make a purchase. I feel that this is a great way to ensure that you get everythign you want and nothing that you don't need. Oh, and feel free to PM me if you have any further questions.
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Originally posted by TKOPerformance
I ran an older version of the Accel DFI on my truck and wasn't happy with it in the least. The resolution was poor, the interface problematic, and the software really out of date. Granted that was several years ago and I hear they've finally improved their product to work with modern operating systems.
The DFIV7 is a windows based format now, beterr than most of the DFI's out there
A lot of people run the FAST system and love it. Ditto for the Tec II and Tec III systems.
And Accel DFIV7's
There is also a super cheap way to get EFI if you have a decent electronics background. There's a kit you can buy from an internet site called the Megasquirt. Basically you build your own ECM and then write your own code in assembly language. It's pretty easy to modify the system to any needs if you have a good enough understanding of electronic engineering.
Eventually I think I'm going to convert my car to a factory style Ford ECIV system. I have a lot of experience with them, they are very tolerant of modifications, and still have all the sophistication of a factory system. Plus I'll get the ability to swap injectors without the hassle of burning a new chip every time, as long as I swap the sample tube in the mass air (assuming I use the C&L meter, which I would).
There are enough ZZ4s out there that you shouldn't really need a wideband O2. Widebands are great if you have a totally custom application that needs air/fuel readings way outside the limits of a stock sensor, but for your goals I think it is overkill. You should be able to contact TPIS, or the manufacturer of the EFI you chose and get ballpark A/F tables for your application that will just require fine tuning.
Accel offers a complete dfi setup pretuned for a ZZ4. I would not want to tune by reading sparkplugs when all I have to do is look at a gauge and see my changes, Before I get in trouble. How would you fine tune? Look at the spark plugs? A regular O2 is only looking for stoich, pretty tough way to tune.
I would go for port EFI right off the bat. There realy isn't much difference in torque production between TBI and port systems, but TBIs are limited on top end power production. plus TBI and TPI systems are bank to bank, which will never be as good as sequential injection.
If you are not revving to 8000 rpm and up or looking for some better emissions going to sequential is a waste of money. Bank to Bank will make the same power properly tuned. Oh yeah you still have injector trims in the better dfi's.
My advice is to read a couple of books on EFI to really familiarize yourself with the terminology and how the system works before you make a purchase. I feel that this is a great way to ensure that you get everything you want and nothing that you don't need.
I ran an older version of the Accel DFI on my truck and wasn't happy with it in the least. The resolution was poor, the interface problematic, and the software really out of date. Granted that was several years ago and I hear they've finally improved their product to work with modern operating systems.
The DFIV7 is a windows based format now, beterr than most of the DFI's out there
A lot of people run the FAST system and love it. Ditto for the Tec II and Tec III systems.
And Accel DFIV7's
There is also a super cheap way to get EFI if you have a decent electronics background. There's a kit you can buy from an internet site called the Megasquirt. Basically you build your own ECM and then write your own code in assembly language. It's pretty easy to modify the system to any needs if you have a good enough understanding of electronic engineering.
Eventually I think I'm going to convert my car to a factory style Ford ECIV system. I have a lot of experience with them, they are very tolerant of modifications, and still have all the sophistication of a factory system. Plus I'll get the ability to swap injectors without the hassle of burning a new chip every time, as long as I swap the sample tube in the mass air (assuming I use the C&L meter, which I would).
There are enough ZZ4s out there that you shouldn't really need a wideband O2. Widebands are great if you have a totally custom application that needs air/fuel readings way outside the limits of a stock sensor, but for your goals I think it is overkill. You should be able to contact TPIS, or the manufacturer of the EFI you chose and get ballpark A/F tables for your application that will just require fine tuning.
Accel offers a complete dfi setup pretuned for a ZZ4. I would not want to tune by reading sparkplugs when all I have to do is look at a gauge and see my changes, Before I get in trouble. How would you fine tune? Look at the spark plugs? A regular O2 is only looking for stoich, pretty tough way to tune.
I would go for port EFI right off the bat. There realy isn't much difference in torque production between TBI and port systems, but TBIs are limited on top end power production. plus TBI and TPI systems are bank to bank, which will never be as good as sequential injection.
If you are not revving to 8000 rpm and up or looking for some better emissions going to sequential is a waste of money. Bank to Bank will make the same power properly tuned. Oh yeah you still have injector trims in the better dfi's.
My advice is to read a couple of books on EFI to really familiarize yourself with the terminology and how the system works before you make a purchase. I feel that this is a great way to ensure that you get everything you want and nothing that you don't need.
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,391
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From: Newark, DE
Car: '86 Camaro, '02 WRX, '87 K5, '67
Engine: 350 TPI, 2.0turbo, 383 in the works, 289-4BBL, 232, A-head 4-cylinder
Transmission: T56, 5-speed, 700R4, C4, T176, semi-auto 2-speed
Axle/Gears: 3.73, 3.90, 4.88, 3.55, 3.54, 7.00
With the right formulas you can get approximate A/F values to get a map together to get the car running. You can then do empirical testing to optimize the system. Track testing in particular would be a big help. Obviouisly a wideband O2 is easier, but it's also more expensive. Also, the really good ones with a fast enough refresh rate to properly read A/F ratios in a window are super expensive. Another great option would be an EGT gauge.
Obviously Accel has updated their lineup with some good stuff. That's good to hear, because they were really behind on the times for a while. I didn't mean to slam Accel, just relate prior expeience that I had with one of their older systems. Everything I've seen on version 7 looks really good.
With the price of some of the lower end sequential sysyems so close to the bank to bank setups why wouldn't you run sequential? You'll get better mileage and better fuel distribution. You will need a cylindere trim feature to really optomize it though. Without the trim you can run colder or hotter plugs to help deal with rich or lean cylinders, but this won't be as good as a trim feature.
Obviously Accel has updated their lineup with some good stuff. That's good to hear, because they were really behind on the times for a while. I didn't mean to slam Accel, just relate prior expeience that I had with one of their older systems. Everything I've seen on version 7 looks really good.
With the price of some of the lower end sequential sysyems so close to the bank to bank setups why wouldn't you run sequential? You'll get better mileage and better fuel distribution. You will need a cylindere trim feature to really optomize it though. Without the trim you can run colder or hotter plugs to help deal with rich or lean cylinders, but this won't be as good as a trim feature.
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From: Marion, Iowa
Car: 92 Camaro
Engine: ZZ4 Crate Engine w/Hot Cam
Transmission: Rebuilt 700R4 with Transgo and MW 3
Axle/Gears: 3.73 Eaton Posi
CarCraft has a great article outlining the highpoints of various EFI systems:
http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/81458/index.html
From what I've seen, I like the various peripheral control outputs that Accel offers (such as A/C, fan, TCC and other controls). And their tuning software really kicks ***... you can overlay any variable on a RPM/MAP table.
Mechanically though, I like Holley's Stealth ram setup. At this point I plan on going with the Stealth ram manifold and Accel electronics.
Do you guys know what an Accel system costs nowadays for just the ECU and harness?
http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/81458/index.html
From what I've seen, I like the various peripheral control outputs that Accel offers (such as A/C, fan, TCC and other controls). And their tuning software really kicks ***... you can overlay any variable on a RPM/MAP table.
Mechanically though, I like Holley's Stealth ram setup. At this point I plan on going with the Stealth ram manifold and Accel electronics.
Do you guys know what an Accel system costs nowadays for just the ECU and harness?
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Originally posted by mdricken
CarCraft has a great article outlining the highpoints of various EFI systems:
http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/81458/index.html
From what I've seen, I like the various peripheral control outputs that Accel offers (such as A/C, fan, TCC and other controls). And their tuning software really kicks ***... you can overlay any variable on a RPM/MAP table.
Mechanically though, I like Holley's Stealth ram setup. At this point I plan on going with the Stealth ram manifold and Accel electronics.
Do you guys know what an Accel system costs nowadays for just the ECU and harness?
CarCraft has a great article outlining the highpoints of various EFI systems:
http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/81458/index.html
From what I've seen, I like the various peripheral control outputs that Accel offers (such as A/C, fan, TCC and other controls). And their tuning software really kicks ***... you can overlay any variable on a RPM/MAP table.
Mechanically though, I like Holley's Stealth ram setup. At this point I plan on going with the Stealth ram manifold and Accel electronics.
Do you guys know what an Accel system costs nowadays for just the ECU and harness?
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 523
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From: Marion, Iowa
Car: 92 Camaro
Engine: ZZ4 Crate Engine w/Hot Cam
Transmission: Rebuilt 700R4 with Transgo and MW 3
Axle/Gears: 3.73 Eaton Posi
Thats what I run. right around $1400.00
You run an Accel w/a Stealth ram?? How do you like it?
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Originally posted by 9secIROC
plus about another grand for the wide band option.
plus about another grand for the wide band option.
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,391
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From: Newark, DE
Car: '86 Camaro, '02 WRX, '87 K5, '67
Engine: 350 TPI, 2.0turbo, 383 in the works, 289-4BBL, 232, A-head 4-cylinder
Transmission: T56, 5-speed, 700R4, C4, T176, semi-auto 2-speed
Axle/Gears: 3.73, 3.90, 4.88, 3.55, 3.54, 7.00
There's an article on a stand alone wideband monitor in this months issue of Car Craft. It sounds impressive, and replacement sensors are only $54 instead of several hundred.
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From: Cincinnati
Car: 1987 GTA
Engine: PT88 Turbo DART 406
Transmission: th400
Axle/Gears: 9" ford
Yeah having someone tune it is all WELL and GOOD untill the conditions are NOT exactly the same as the dyno it was tuned on..
While Im not a PRO tuner by any stretch I like that NEW for $1800 I have a completely upgradeable system that will keep me out of trouble when conditions change... With the SP wideband if I go to Southern Texas in August and the Humidity is 150% and the temp is 115 degrees I know my butt is covered... Ive had 2 upgrades done to mine so far and the only cost Ive incurred is shipping.... IF the need should arize for me to go above a #100 injector they will upgrade my unit to SFI...versus other companies telling me to buy a new one or selling me some messed up box to trick the thing into running bigger injectors...
Im not saying its the best system out there.... But WBo2 gives the average to professional a great margin of safety... I dont want to rely on MY GUESSES or a TUNE done on a 75 degree day at 400Ft above sea level with Brand X gas etc etc...
While a gen 6 can be made to work fine and has been thats not the issue... The issue for ME like MOST is...Im not pro sponsored... When my s^%t breaks I have to FIX it and pay for the parts myself...Therefore the initial investment in a GOOD tuning system is well Worth it....
At 30psi I sure as hell want to make sure the tune is as SAFE as possible EVERY PASS.... Now maybe 1 day Ill get picked up and wont care because Ill have a pit crew figuring that stuff out for me... But for now...WBo2 is GREAT...
While Im not a PRO tuner by any stretch I like that NEW for $1800 I have a completely upgradeable system that will keep me out of trouble when conditions change... With the SP wideband if I go to Southern Texas in August and the Humidity is 150% and the temp is 115 degrees I know my butt is covered... Ive had 2 upgrades done to mine so far and the only cost Ive incurred is shipping.... IF the need should arize for me to go above a #100 injector they will upgrade my unit to SFI...versus other companies telling me to buy a new one or selling me some messed up box to trick the thing into running bigger injectors...
Im not saying its the best system out there.... But WBo2 gives the average to professional a great margin of safety... I dont want to rely on MY GUESSES or a TUNE done on a 75 degree day at 400Ft above sea level with Brand X gas etc etc...
While a gen 6 can be made to work fine and has been thats not the issue... The issue for ME like MOST is...Im not pro sponsored... When my s^%t breaks I have to FIX it and pay for the parts myself...Therefore the initial investment in a GOOD tuning system is well Worth it....
At 30psi I sure as hell want to make sure the tune is as SAFE as possible EVERY PASS.... Now maybe 1 day Ill get picked up and wont care because Ill have a pit crew figuring that stuff out for me... But for now...WBo2 is GREAT...
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From: CR, IA
Car: 91
Engine: 427 with dual stage fogger
Transmission: TH400 with 2.75 1st
Axle/Gears: 4.11 moser 35 splines
Dude
You know me from B Bops and AIM. I picked up a Accel DFI setup 6.32 (I think). I got a Holley Stealth Ram ported, Arizona Speed and Marine 1300 cfm throttle body, Accel DFI fuel injector controller all for 1500 bucks. Not bad you can stop down and look at it if you want.
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