I was on their website and saw that they offer a fast EZ fuel inj. setup to operate GM tpi. I am running a first fuel setup which is the same as the stock tpi only bigger. It runs off of the stock computer and i'm thinking of using the EZ system that fast fuel injection offers. It is the computer, programmer, wiring harness and wide band o2 sensor. Everything plugs in to the stock sensors. I'd like to know if anyone has tried this system, it sounds like the best thing for me. I want a simple setup that is easily tunable. I don't know if it could control timing or torque con. lockup. Anybody?

 

O.k., i guess not. Anyway, it seems like the setup is strictly for controlling the engine. I guess i could hook up a controller for the lock up and then use a traditional distributor setup old school. I just think that ez setup would run smoother with the wide band o2 and self tuning ability. They have a direct setup for tpi and i have a first fuel intake so it looks fairly easy.

 

73

it does not control timing, it only does fuel. the xfi does both and then some if budget allows otherwise maybe you can find a used FAST Classic system for sale at a bargan price. That would be be an inexpensive way to get a quality system ( still no transmission control though) but they DO have a Robust wideband 02 setup . ( it was an option but most guys got it.

Doug

 

I'm curious about this system too. I have an 89 TPI; I emailed them and they sent me instructions and a schematic. Problem is the instructions are for the EZ-EFI standard (the one with the carb-style induction) kit, however the wiring diagram was quite helpful. It looks like you unplug everything form the ECU, replace the ECU and old harness with the FAST harness and go. I do have a few more questions which I will send to them shortly:

? I run a MAF, what do I do for the MAP sensor?
? will this affect my speedo
? can I use my current 30lb Venom injectors
? what happens to the VATS
? how do I control the distributor & timing


Any other questions I need to ask?

 

the EZ EFI system does NOT control the timing. It is meant to be just what they call it, an ez efi system . It is meant for the street rod crowd that wants something very simple.

at least 50 percent of the benifits from a good efi system comes from being able to control the timing. you would be going backwards if you swapped to that system.

Like I said,to make an improvement over a factory tpi ecu you would need to get an XFI system or pick up a used classic FAST system ( which is still a great system)

 

The stock ECM can do whatever you need it to do. Rather than invest in an entirely new engine management system, especially one that does not control timing and/or transmission lockup, just learn how to burn your own chips for the stock ECM and call it a day. Either that, or simply invest in a credible EFI management system, one that controls everything....

 

yup the stock ecu will do the job I just dont like them because they are a pita to program. The aftermarket stuff is much more straight forward. I dont care what anyone says, by the time you buy the stuff to reprogram the factory ecu,and the research to piece it all together, then learn the goofy software. Just go buy a FAST system and get it over with.

 

I just had a SuperRam/383 built. My engine builder plans on running it on his engine stand dyno this week. He said he will be using his FAST system to do so.... He's closed for the weekend but you guys think he will be able to run the engine up on engine stand dyno with this FAST setup? Do I need to bring him my MAF/ducting to do it? Does the FAST system work with the factory type distributor? The FAST system has a wire harness so he wont need the one from my car?? Thanks

 

the FAST system is speed density so no maf is needed. it is certainly possible to run your motor off the stock distributor and his ecu and harness, he may or may not need to adapt to some of your sensor connectors but a good dyno operator will be able to make it fly.

Doug

 

I emailed Matt at FAST and below is the contents and reply I got.

The car in question is a 1989 Firebird, 357cid TPI (with MAF sensor). I have read through the instructions forwarded to me by Mr Maxwell. I see they are not Retro-specific (I got the standard EZ-EFI instructions), but I get the idea. The instructions did not address a few issues which I see as critical to making this upgrade.

1) My TPI utilizes a MAF sensor as opposed to the later MAP sensor found on the factory speed density cars. Where would the Retro-fit MAP sensor be installed?

The MAP sensor just needs a source of intake manifold vacuum. You could T off of the vacuum line going to the fuel pressure regulator, for instance.



2) I believe my speedometer is electronically controlled & fed by the stock ECU, how is this addressed with this system?

There is no feature for this in the ecu. The ecu just worries about getting the proper amount of fuel into the engine. You will have to figure out something on your own here.



3) I currently run 30lb Venon hi-imped injectors, are they compatible with the Retro harness?

Your injectors will work fine.



4) Later 3rd Gen F-bodies utilize the VATS security system, is this feature simply ignored and rendered inoperable by the Retro unit or how is this addressed?

Just like the factory speedometer. Without a factory ecu in the car, the VATS will no longer work.



5) Biggest issue: my distributor/timing is controlled electronically by the stock ECU (the EST wire), there's no mention of the distributor in the literature, how is this addressed or modified? (I do currently run an MSD 6A box solely for the spark enhancement)

EZ EFI strictly controls fuel. There are no timing controls. You would run a distributor similar to a carbureted application with centrifugal and vacuum advance. You can still use your ignition box, though.

 

Good answers sometimes lead to more questions! So here's what I need help with..

? what would i do about my electronic speedo
? without the stock ECM, does that render the VATS inoperable (meaning the car would still start)

The timing issues seem to be more cut and dried. I was looking at the MSD site and found a couple solutions. They have a stand alone timing computer that is preprogrammed to run -20* (back of full advance) at idle, start putting timing in at 1000 RPM to achieve full advance at 3000. No changes to be made, except a rev limiter. The other is a distributor w magnetic pickup that hooks to the MSD box, comes with springs, no physical vac advance but I think it mentioned something about it in the instructions.

My original idea was to have a bung welded in one of the headers for a WB O2 for the dyno, get a couple pulls and send that data off to FastChip for a custom burn. 2 dyno sessions, 2 chip reburns, 1 weld comes to about $750..and I still don't think I'd get all I could out of my new combination.

My quandry is, do I want to take 3 steps forward with the EZ-EFI only to take 2 steps back with the antique mechanical timing? Or spend an extra $300 for a set computer controlled timing computer?

NO, I do not want to spend the full $2k for XFI, nor do I want to burn or program myself, that's what the EZ-EFI is for. What do you guys think of mechanical advance vs a set computer timing? Are the results going to be about the same (assuming I set the mechanical to the same curve as the computer)?

All opinions welcome.
Eric

 

you can stab a distributor in there with any curve you want but it wont be as good as what the factory or aftermarket ecu could be programed to do. I figured you didnt want to pop for an xfi , thats why I mentioned the used classic system, ( they can be found for under a grand sometimes a lot less and they do most of what an xfi will do. ) After you learn a little more about this stuff, you wont want the EZ system. Maybe have someone burn a chip for you untill you figure out what you want.?

 

I'd get a classic system if it tuned itself. I can have a chip burned. Was hoping to try the new technology that keeps me from having to program.

 

Thanks for the info. With all due respect to everyone who say's to tune the stock ECU, i find that even with tuning these stock systems never seem to run perfect. I got my 91 z28 tuned and it still has hiccups like inconsistent and erratic idling. The ignition is no big deal because a simple ready to run msd distributor is a 3 wire hookup that has always performed well for me and does'nt require an ignition box. Just set timing the old school way and forget about it. I'd have to wire up a way to lock up the converter automatically. I have just a couple of questions.
1- Will the engine start without the ECU?
2- Will the fuel pump operate without the ECU?
3- Is there a way to hook up my aftermarket speedo which is electronic? It currently gets it's buffered vss signal from the computer.
The ez system takes care of the air and fuel, so i'm figuring out the rest. If anyone see's anything i'm leaving out please let me know.
Please no more suggestions about sticking with the stock ecu, the ez setup not only tunes itself, but makes corrections way faster than the stock system ever could. I don't have the time or patience to dabble with the stock setup.

 

Quote: I am running a first fuel setup which is the same as the stock tpi only bigger. It runs off of the stock computer and i'm thinking of using the EZ system that fast fuel injection offers.

Have you consdered Megasquirt? That ECU will connect with GM harness with an adapter. It will run only fuel or both F and SA. Older versions of MS are lower in price. check their site and EBay for older version systems. It is reasonably priced.

 

Well, that makes 2 of us.

I think I can answer the 1st 2 questions you have. Both are NO, the FP and the engine need A computer (stock or EZ) to start. All the fuel delivery is controlled by the ECU. EZ has a connector that plugs right up to the factory FP connection behind the back seat, for that fact most all (cept TPS) the stock sensors will hook right up to the Retro kit. (AFAIK)

I have emailed a couple of board members who always give good advice about the VATS, speedo, and timing. I'll post their replies when I get them.

I'm very high on this system, I've seen a few videos and articles on EZ that speak to how I want my car to work.

FYI- if I get the mech adv distrib, it will go 3 wire to my MSD and all I'm going to need other than that would be a $10 adapter for my coil. (about $217 total to downgrade to the old school)

 

Ronny- I appreciate the suggestion but I am looking for EFI that doesn't require me to burn or program. I did check out MS, and in the second paragraph, I read this:

"the MegaSquirt® family of EFI Controllers is not designed to be a 'no hassle' solution to user's EFI needs. Instead it is intended to be an educational process."

EZ-EFI is a self-tuning system (unlike DFI, XFI, & MS). Don't really wanna learn about it, just want it to happen.

 

I know that "self learning" part sounds good to you guys but ...As you learn more about efi systems, you will wish you went with something tunable that controls spark as well.

Heck maybe you will love it and live happily ever after..

 

The spark control is no big deal imo. I don't see the need, if you have a distributor with the timing set properly it will function with no noticable difference. From all the reviews i've seen, the ez setup just plain works. It adjusts itself way faster than most other efi systems and is for guys like me that simply don't want the hassle. Also, this board is overfilled with people with sporadic issues concerning the stock tpi. Most people go through a lot of trial and error to get their cars running right. I have'nt heard of too many people who feel their cars are running perfectly. Last but not least, the ez system will adapt to any longblock i will ever build in the future. I've put a lot of money into my car and after a year and a half i still get periodic idling problems. Simplicity is underated, the stock setup controls almost everything and that makes it really difficult to diagnose where certain problems are.

 

Boss, forgive me, but that is the wrong outlook to have with any EFI setup, even one that does it all for you. Out of the three you mentioned, XFI is the superior, insomuch that it can tune each cylinder independently from one another, not to mention its Qwik Tune feature. MS is a great system as well, and it offers a Self Tune option to boot. I can understand that you might not have the time to burn chips, but other than that little deterrence, you simply can't beat the stock ECM when it comes to controlling everything overall....

 

there is a alot of things you can do with ecu controlled timing that a simple distributor can not do. you can change the timing while cranking ,lock the timing at certain rpms, like idle so it wont hunt up and down. add or subtract timing at different engine loads and rpms . Timing has a profound effect for performance and drivability. I'm just tossing that out there to help, I am off the soapbox now.

 

Other than the fact that I don't want to do things the hard way, or YOUR way, however you see it, and that I have the wrong outlook, does anybody happen to have any answers to my questions about the VATS and speedo?

 

Let me reiterate for you; your planning on installing an "ez" fuel injection system, while at the same time, trying to figure out a way, or compensate if you will, to maintain your torque converter lockup, timing control, and VATS? You call this not doing things the hard way? Especially when the stock ECM already ties into all three...?

When you pull the stock ECM w/harness, VATS becomes irrelevant, because it not only ties into your starter, but your fuel injectors as well. Rather than waste your time trying to maintain VATS with the EZ harness, just get yourself an aftermarket alarm system and/or kill switch, otherwise be prepared for a major headache trying to cut and splice into the EZ harness. Timing, like already stated above, can be vacuum controlled, and it can also be tweaked through using an adjustable advance chamber (you can also opt for an expensive electronic setup). Your torque converter will not lockup w/the ECM disconnected, however, there are things that you can do to fix that.....;

* You can install a non-lockup converter....

* You can get a vacuum controlled lockup kit....

* Or you can simply rewire it yourself, Click Here....

.... as far as "my way" being a problem for you, you need to understand that I am trying to help you avoid the same mistakes that I made years ago. There is simply no reason to fight what I'm saying, nor to fight the stock ECM, because both are here to help you. If you don't want the stock ECM, that is fine, so lets move along then. You now know your timing options, you know your torque converter lockup options, and you know your anti-theft options. What else do you want to know?

 

SL, at least you are thorough in your response. I'll try and do the same in mine:

I never said I wanted to keep the VATS, just wanted to make sure I can still start my car w/o the ECU accepting it's signal. Problem solved, see post below.

I have a T5 that's going to morph into a TKO600. Non-issue.

My issue with the timing was I kinda hate going backwards to go forwards. Problem solved, see post below.

The speedo is something I've never dealt with. Problem solved, see post below.

I do consider learning new (to me) technology like chip burning, VE tables, spark advance tables, and the like "doing things the hard way" I guestimate it would have taken me months to get it all right after my engine has been freshened. In contrast, I have spent 4 days on this, have all the issues I can think of resolved to this point, and I don't have to keep sending my chip out for reburns. Nor do I have to fork over $150 for dyno pulls to get the information to send with the chip to get reburned. I only asked a few specific questions related to EZ-EFI. If one were to read through this post to this point, it could be deduced that most of it (not all of it) were spent with folks telling me to stick with the stocker, learn to burn, or learn to program.

For those that have given me help, thank you. If you have to mention anything related to keeping the stocker or chip burning, you're in the wrong thread.

 

I emailed a coupe of folks whom I have spoken with in the past. I want to thank them and will keep their anonymity because I don't want to compete for space in their in-boxes!

Here are my questions and their responses:

You've been great to me in the past and I trust your answers. I hope you can weigh in again on my new project. I was hoping to swap in the Retro-Fit EZ-EFI kit from FAST, supplanting the stock ECU and eliminating my need to burn chips. Just like the 305 vs 350 fight, I mostly get "burn your own stuff" or "get XFI and learn how to program" for answers.

My questions are:
? how do I make my electronic speedo work without the stock ECU; the EZ unit only does fuel/air management

? the VATS won't have a signal anymore either, will the EZ unit simply render it inoperable (meaning the car will run anyway)

?? I'd need to use an MSD timing controller (with fixed timing curve) or downgrade to a current version of mechanical advance. If I need to downgrade, is there a downside that would hinder the performance of my engine or would this be a non-issue

I looked at that EZ EFI stuff and it looks pretty neat. Doesnt look like a bad system either. Not sure how it self tunes other than simple calculations based on wideband input readings, it will take that value and calculate change in VE and then go ahead and make those changes to the fuel tables to get the car running better. VERY similar to my current '730 ecm running code $59, but its not automatic. You datalog and take the output and put it in a spreadsheet which will make the changes. NIce to see FAST do that for you. It works.

Regarding VATS. EZEFI does not have it, so the VATS system becomes disabled. NO worries there.

Timing/distributor issue: I dont see a huge problem with going to a mechanical advance/vacuum advance setup. Have it setup so max timing is 34-36 degrees and have it come in at 3000-3200 rpm. That is how i program my car's timing curve for WOT anyway.

The only thing you loose out on is part throttle adustability during cruise. No biggie but its nice to have. I'm not sure what the actual timing value would be at 1500-3000 rpm cruise range at light loads, but generally 30-35 degrees works fine. Some guys have run as high as 40-42 but I never did. 35-36 at most cruise rpms for my 383, and now 32-33 for the turbo motor.

I"m not sure how those dizzys work but if you can set a base timing at say 20 degrees at 800 rpm idle and have it all ramped up to max of 34-35 by 3000 rpms, then I assume the range from 20-35 is where part throttle timing would be from 800-3000 rpm, just linear increase. Not bad but could be loads better because by 1500-2000 you want to see 34-35 degrees anyway. I'm just not sure how carb dizzys work, i've been an EFI guy. Might have to ask others how that will work.

Speedo: You sure you have a electric speedo? May want to ask XXXXX (he's a wiring guru here he would know for sure) this question as I am not to familar with VSS and electronic speedos. From my understanding is the 90-92 ECM picks up a signal from the speed sensor on the car/tranny then transmits that to the speedometer after converting the signal to the right output pulse which i believe is 4000ppm. (pulse per mile)

If you delete the ecm, you will need a digital box to convert the VSS signal to the right output. I believe the cable driven speedo cars had these boxes under the dash but not sure if they can be used or not. From diagrams i've seen, it looks like you could use a old buffer box to get correct signal without ECM. Locate a older MAF car or TBI car and pull the buffer box and wire it in perhaps?


________________
I was referred to you from XXXXX. I recently asked him a question about a couple of items, all of which he answered but referred me to you on one topic.

I have an 89 Formula TPI. I want to swap to EZ-EFI, which does not control the speedo (among other things). I was under the assumption that my speedo is electronic and controlled by the stock ECU. Is this true and if so, how would i get it to work without the stock ECU?

Your 89 will have a VSS buffer box already installed because the old MAF TPI ECMs are too dumb to understand the raw VSS signal. The buffer box cuts it down to something it can read. That being said, there is nothing wrong with removing the ECM and leaving the buffer box in place. As long as the VSS wiring to the box is correct and the 12v IGN and ground are there your speedo will function correctly regardless of what or if any ECM is present
http://www.austinthirdgen.org/mkport...SS_V8_vinE.jpg
__________________

Hope this is helpful for anybody in the future. Thanks everyone!

 

This is for the archives....

Well that honestly goes without saying though because the VATS works through the stock ECM. If you pull the stock ECM, and run a stand-alone system, then you wouldn't have to worry about VATS being a problem now would you. This is why I thought you wanted to maintain VATS in the first place, because maintaining it would be the headache, tossing it along with the stock ECM goes hand in hand....

Maybe for you, but how about the person who's thread this belongs....

Followed by....

Problem solved lol? Please post up your results when all is said and done, and I'd like for you to be as honest as possible in terms of it really being worth it or not. Megasquirt has a self tuning feature as well, just set desired AFR and start driving. It also comes with a 350-SBC tune, not to mention it also controls timing, and is in the same price range as the EZ unit. This is why Ronny mentioned Megasquirt above. I think the problems are just beginning with the EZ setup. I also find it absolutely ironic in how the person giving you said advice is running a '7730 w/$59 mask....

Months? Maybe in the beginning, like, say, twenty years ago, but nowadays there are so many combination burns out there it is just a matter of finding one that is close to your setup, and tweaking it to get it right. That would take only hours to those who are in the know, and days for those who aren't, but certainly not months. I'll give you an example, I have a set of heads, cam, intake, injectors and larger turbo going into my TTA come this March. If I give Eric Marshall over at turbo tweak a call, he will have a chip burned for me exactly the way I need it, the first time out, w/out me doing anything....

Boy are you in for a surprise. Don't forget, post your results, and be honest....

[/done]

 

Actually I was looking at this tech just now and looks to me to be great for a retrofit to my 86 which was a comp controlled carb set up, but is now just a carb. This looks like the way to convert to a tpi without all the drama, or a stealth ram.

 

I wouldn't have known about the VATS unless I asked now would I? Since you quoted me at the head of that reply, I assumed you were referring to me in re: the torque lockup. I have no idea what the 7730 ECU has to do with irony in this post, please explain. If you could reference me a PN for the Megasquirt piece, I'd be more than happy to check it out. Unfortunately, I don't know Eric Marshall so you are a lucky fella with your chips. I do all this research so as to avoid surprises when I'm working on the car. I fully plan to post my trials & tribulations after it gets done. I'll send you an autographed copy.

 

hey guys, i've been reading your posts and i appreciate all the advice, even those insisting to stay stock. I live in the Bronx N.Y., so if anyone here would be willing to check my ride out, i'd reconsider staying stock. I have no clue how to even mess with the computer. I had it tuned in N.J. at ida automotive a year ago and he used a piggyback perfect power module that controls only the air and fuel while the stock ECU controls the spark and everything else. The car runs O.K., but the idle is finicky and hunts up and down. On cold startup the car fires up but idles at about 650 instead of a higher idle for warm up. I thought a cold startup is supposed to idle at about 1100 to 1200 until warm and settle down. The base timing is set at 6 degrees with the tan wire unplugged. Are any of you guys near me? I can't make endless trips to an expensive tuner. I've seen way too many threads here about rough idling and other quirks. I want my car running perfect. Thanks again.

 

73duster,
I hear you on Ida's tuning. I spent over a thousand dollars on a combo injector install ( he wanted 30 lbs, I had 24's and I provided the injectors separate), leakdown test and dyno tune and I never felt that they did an adequate job. This was about 7yrs ago. That's why I'm here, I'm going to try and learn how to do it myself.