StonersTA

Hello Everyone,
I am almost done wiring up my new ECU and ran into a couple road blocks that I thought this community would be able to help me finish.
I have a 1987 Pontiac Trans Am GTA. I swapped the stock 305 TPI for a GM ZZ4 Crate engine. I also took off the TPI and installed a Holley Stealth Ram w/ 27lb injectors. I am in the process of wiring up a AEM Infinity 308 ECU to run everything. I purchased a AEM's Flying Lead Harness (p/n - 30-3707) to adapt to my setup.
Sensors were pretty straight forward and I have them soldered in and installed (Coolant Temp, Air Temp, TPS, IAC, MAP).

The injector harness I purchased was AEM's GM EV6 Injector Adapter Harness (p/n - 30-3805-10). This injector harness has a Deutsch style (DTM) 12 pin plug on it. I purchased the correct matching end plug to wire into the flying lead. As far as wiring in the Injectors, its been simple. The orange wires on the flying lead are numbers to the correct injector. They pin in as follows - Injectors 1-4 to Pin 1-4 / Injectors 5-8 to Pin 9-12. My question is what do I need to get 12V switched power and ground to the remaining pins? I have Pins 5-8 that I'm not sure how to wire in. Here is the User Manual that includes the pin out details https://www.aemelectronics.com/files...pter%20EV6.pdf

Next, I contacted AEM trying to get some support on how to wire in the stock TPI distributor into the flying lead harness. They were not much help and suggested I buy another distributor. Before I spend almost $400 on a distributor I wanted to reach out to TGO and see if you guys know of a way I can wire up the stock distributor to work. I have AEM's Timing Input Adapter (p/n - 30-3805-04) that i'm trying to wire up to a stock TPI distributor. Here is the User Manual that includes the pin out details - https://www.aemelectronics.com/files...AG%20Crank.pdf

I still have questions too about wiring up the stock TPI coil but i'll save that for after these two issues have been resolved. Hopefully someone on here knows more than I do and can help me get this project finished up.

Thanks for your time everyone!

GeneralDisorder

iTrader: (1)

I get that you're deeply invested in this AEM foolishness, but why didn't you just go to a plug and play EBL box?

I don't think anyone here has ever used the AEM system. It's just not popular for this application. And clearly the AEM people aren't much help.

EBL is less than $500 and you don't have to do any major rewiring (some very straightforward with instructions). RBob (the developer) is an active member here, and owns a third gen if I'm not mistaken. The system is very friendly and I had my car running and driving in under an hour.

GD

StonersTA

I dont know anything about EBL. I'd be open to reading up on it more and understand more about it.
You are right tho, I am deeply invested in this AEM. I want to see if anyone on these forums can help with some of the wiring on this distributor before I pull the plug on it. If it comes down to a $400 distributor or a $500 EBL Box? I might be open to switching gears then. For now I'll wait and see if anyone else on here can help me out

GeneralDisorder

iTrader: (1)

Well that adapter harness you have is only an input - which hopefully the AEM can be configured to accept the square wave reference pulse from the purple/white wire on the 8 pin distributor module (R terminal). The output is a 5v square wave where the falling edge of the square wave occurs at 6 degrees BTDC (when timing is properly set per for the FSM). But you still need an ignition advance control output from the AEM to the white wire to control timing advance in the module.... otherwise I think it will just be stuck at 6 degrees or whatever you set the static timing at. There is also a brown/white wire on the B terminal of the module that gets 0v during cranking, and then 5v when running to enable timing adjustments on the white wire. The white wire on E terminal is a square wave input that fires the coil on the trailing edge of the high signal. The AEM needs to calculate timing advance based on the previous cylinder's 6 degree BTDC trailing edge trigger and provide a square wave to pin E to fire the coil.

Having no experience with that AEM ECU, you will need to read the documentation to find out how to do this or if it is even capable. Based on AEM's suggestion of buying a different distributor, it sounds like it may not be capable. Remember you are trying to adapt 2019 technology to 1987 technology. There is no guarantee they considered this in the design of the AEM and it may not even be possible. The GM 8 pin HEI is probably of ZERO concern to them as far as supported hardware. OTOH - it may work just fine with the right wiring and settings. IDK. And I doubt anyone else here knows either.

This is Dynamic EFI's EBL Flash-II system that would plug and play with your 87. You just rewire the MAF harness to a MAP sensor, move the MAT so it's an IAT, and change a handful of pins at the ECU connectors. Turn key and start tuning.

https://www.dynamicefi.com/EBL_Flash.php

GD

StonersTA

Thank you! From your explanation it sounds like AEM and you are saying the same thing, it would be easier to purchase the Holley suggested distributor and an aftermarket coil for it as well. Here is what AEM suggested https://www.holley.com/products/fuel..._distributors/

GeneralDisorder

iTrader: (1)

In my opinion (mind you I own a performance shop with a 2000 HP chassis dyno, I tune a few different EFI systems, and I know quite a few excellent tuners [such as the VP for Link ECU's] that use my dyno, etc), you should replace the EFI harness with a stock one from a wrecked car and get an EBL Flash-II. Then you don't have to bother with any of that or switching the distributor, etc.

Ultimately you just want to drive the car with a ZZ4, stealth ram, and 27lb injectors right? This is not going to be a track car with a blower and nitrous? Just put it back to stock wiring and do the EBL. This AEM and Holley 950 and whatever other bill of goods these salesmen have robbed your money for are just a waste of your time selling you products with hundreds of features you neither want to deal with nor need. And they are not specifically tailored to your engine like the EBL is. The EBL uses a highly modified factory GM ECM - so it already understands the ignition system and basic wiring of the vehicle. The EBL adds a ton of features, high speed communication, and easy Windows 10 compatible tuning and analysis software.

GD

StonersTA

I think you are right on the money! However, I have a lot of money into this AEM system now to just walk away seems crazy.
I also still have the factory harness on the car. I couldn;t bring myself to cut it up until I had something installed and running.

GeneralDisorder

iTrader: (1)

Yeah - walk away. Might seem crazy but unfortunately people have led you down the wrong path - to their financial benefit and your detriment. Take the lumps and walk away.

Since you didn't cut the harness you are totally set. Get the EBL, hook it up per the instructions, and you'll be tuning in about an hour.

Sell that AEM system, and the Holley 950. Get on the train with everyone else and benefit from the collective wisdom and experience around here - which includes the very helpful developer of the product. You can't ask for better assistance than the design engineer himself.

I don't have a horse in this race. I don't want or need to sell you anything. I use the Dynamic EFI product and approve of it's effectiveness for your combination and I've been around the forum here for a bit and there are a LOT of people running this system (more than any of the other EFI systems on third gen's I would wager) so the amount of experience available here makes it the preferred tuning solution.

Also 100% of the questions I've seen were regarding tuning - not hooking it up. That part is simple. So simple that there's virtually no questions about it even.

GD

efiguy

iTrader: (2)

Download the AEM software and look at it first before you slam it.

StonersTA

Little Update. I have the Holley recommended Dual-Sync distributor now and an aftermarket coil i'm going to wire up this weekend.
General Disorder, I understand what you're saying but I am, as you say, too deep into this. I'm close to turning the key and seeing if I know what the heck i'm doing. Too late to turn back now. Thanks for your insight though. I'll keep it in mind if this doesnt work out for some reason.
All I have left to do is what I already mentioned to the coil and then finish wiring up the Fuse/Relay block. If I can get some time this weekend to get some work done on it I should be real close to firing up the car and moving forward. I'll post updates in a new post but I'll include a link to the new post here when I do it.

Thanks again

GeneralDisorder

iTrader: (1)

I'm not slamming anything. I'm sure the AEM is a fine system. But it's not really what this gentleman needs.

GD

efiguy

iTrader: (2)

With all due respect I beg to differ. Someone else on here literally begged him to do a Holley HP, and no one seemed to have a problem with that. I think the bulk of the criticism here is due to unfamiliarity and maybe even a bit of close-mindedness regarding the AEM.
This will cost him the same or less than an HP, yet have features that doesn't and a way faster processor. I think now he can look forward to having a 21st century system for years to come.
Thanks.

GeneralDisorder

iTrader: (1)

If it works - yeah it will probably be just fine.

But the EBL system is $475. And you might have to buy a $18 map sensor or something to go with it. About 1 hour including setting up a starter calibration and it would be running.

This poor guy has already spent almost that on just a fancy distributor - not even the AEM itself. And it doesn't run after months of screwing with it.

GD

efiguy

iTrader: (2)

He messed with the Holley 950 for a very very long time with no success, not even from Holley. He’s only been on this for a fraction of that. And I helped him on the distributor, which will now allow him to run in full programmable sequential. Something neither the EBL or 950 offer, correct?
Thank you.

GeneralDisorder

iTrader: (1)

As in individual spark timing per cylinder? Correct - you can't do that with either of those systems. But again - I'm not so sure that's something he would want or even understand the value of.

GD

efiguy

iTrader: (2)

That’s kind of degrading to him isn’t it?
And no that’s not what I was speaking of.
It will now be able to run in true sequential injection mode, have individual cyl trims for both fuel and spark as well as allow the ECM to be configured to run and correct each side independently of each other when using two widebands etc. THAT can be very beneficial, I’ve done a before and after on the dyno and seen gains from just off idle all the way to max rpm with no other changes.
For the record, I’m sure it would run just fine with an EBL. However I’m confident it will run BETTER with a more modern system.
Again thanks.

daferris

iTrader: (8)

However after reading his posts he will need to rewire the injector's as he had them wired in batch mode....
I hope he gets it working well. But this is a good read for someone deciding on what system to go with. I myself thought about a MS3 pro but decided that my comfort and knowledge limits were better suited with the ebl P4 system.
For me that was a good choice and I have yet to reach the limits of what the P4 can handle. Mind you my setup is and always will be a NA motor....

efiguy

iTrader: (2)

I think it’ll be a great read, hopefully beneficial to many in many ways.
And he shouldn’t have had to rewire the injectors. I supplied a sequential style injector harness as well, hmmmmm.

GeneralDisorder

iTrader: (1)

Sequential injection is little more than a fancy buzz word. It's benefits are pretty weak for the entry price of this system and it's steep learning curve for the OP. Here's a read on that:

https://www.diyautotune.com/support/...ch/sequential/

GD

efiguy

iTrader: (2)

I never said it would make more power did I. I said it would run better.
Their philosophy is antiquated in the first part. That used to be true, older EFI systems suggested you use the smallest injector possible because their processors, AND injector hardware didn’t do well at small pulse widths, they tended to be inconsistent.
However today even Holley recommends using a larger injector so you can better tune the injection event for optimum results. It’s in their instructions. Smaller pulse widths make for more accurate timing This is possible today, even at low pulse widths, because of faster processors as well as advancements in injector design and overall hardware.

It seems you’re going to keep defending the old tech, and that’s fine. But you keep bringing up the price. Normally with a cheaper price there is some trade off, and I think there’s some here as well.
And ask yourself, why don’t they use it anymore? Even on non emission vehicles? Because there’s better stuff out there now, plain and simple. Plus the price of this doesn’t even come close to a bunch of other aftermarket systems out on the market today.

GeneralDisorder

iTrader: (1)

I agree re: injector driver hardware, etc. But the man neither needs nor happens to have 100lb injectors so I fail to see the advantage to his specific project. Again - cool features! But of dubious practical use for this specific build.

Look - I get it. I tune a lot more modern cars. We use between 100 and 200lb injectors almost exclusively in my world. We tune with staged nitrous, turbochargers, centrifugals, blowers, etc. On my 2000 HP AWD DynoJet...... I just don't feel this guy is going to benefit from this hardware with his 80% VE pushrod 2 valve seems like a waste of effort and money to accomplish some basic street driving.

GD

efiguy

iTrader: (2)

That’s your opinion. Plus you don’t know what he paid for it either. I’ll bet it’s less than you think.

GeneralDisorder

iTrader: (1)

Is it running yet? For less than $500 it would be running and tuning with the EBL Flash II

Just saying. Two weeks now, how much money spent? Not running clearly. I'm not seeing the win here.

GD

efiguy

iTrader: (2)

Just sayin my butt. Why would you railroad the guy like this?
You know at the end of the day you’re really not helping this guy at all. I don’t care if you have a state of the art Dyno or not, to me you’re showing your true colors.

GeneralDisorder

iTrader: (1)

I'm just curious more than anything. He can do as he likes. I'm merely suggesting that he has taken the harder road here.

And yeah that's also kind of my point - we can't help him because no one has a ton of experience hooking up the AEM's to his application. But there ARE a lot of EBL users here - including the electronics and software developer that designed it. I would help him if I could, and I did give him all the information to hook up the factory distributor if the AEM is capable of understanding it. Which I guess it isn't. You didn't sell him a distributor that worked with the AEM.... why is that? Because you had no idea would be the obvious conclusion.

GD

efiguy

iTrader: (2)

Is it running yet? For less than $500 it would be running and tuning with the EBL Flash II
Just saying. Two weeks now, how much money spent? Not running clearly. I'm not seeing the win here

So this is just curiosity? WOW. Then I'd hate to see what you say when you really mean to belittle someone,

Granted, this sight has way more people well versed in the EBL but I still don't see how any of that helps.
For the record, I texted him just the other day asking if he needed any help. He was fine and said he's moving forward. What have you done besides put in jab whenever possible? Again you're showing your true colors.
As far as the distributor goes, he was in more of a hurry at the time so trial and error wasn't really an option. All he really needed was which terminal was VR+ and VR-. It is what it is.
I didn't SELL him any distributor. But now he has a new Dual sync that'll work extremely well with this system. Enough said.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

AEM is a fine system.

He needs to wire the pickup directly and ditch the GM ICM.

AEM would prefer he buy plug in distributor, which is understandable. But he can use the OE distributor if he wires the pickup directly.

OP will find better help joining Guild of EFI Tuners on Facebook.

-- Joe

IROCZ1989

iTrader: (1)

This isnt anything new. You abandoned the other post after your sale and the thing still isnt running. Depending on what your selling at the moment is the best system that's out there. You sell on this forum and dont pay fees to support it. I'm going to haunt you until you pay your fair share. Support the forum welfare king. Should have sold him a Holley. Seems like alot of bs because you want to sell AEM. Your a snake in the grass distributor that forgoes advertiser fees to make sales on this forum. Your going to sell stuff here, pay, like every other reputable vendor that does. Dont be a cheapskate. What makes you better than Hawks? They pay, you dont. Answer for yourself......

efiguy

iTrader: (2)

Ok soooo if I would’ve sold him a Holley would I still have to pay advertising fees? It seems like the AEM is more the problem with you than anything else.
I love how some on here don’t support the members once they make other than the popular choice. Amazing.

IROCZ1989

iTrader: (1)

Well spill the beans. How much did he pay you and how much did you make+ how much you gave back to the forum. I know tha last answer...zero. You hosed him plane and simple. You contacted him and bypassed the forum thread to make a sale. I know one guy with a thirdgen with an AEM system now. You sold it to him. Everyone else uses either Fast,Holley or the stock setup. You say you sell Holley but bad mouth the system any chance you get. How many Holley systems you sell on thirdgen? And if you did what % did you kick back to support the forums that enable you to sell here? I'll take a gander... a big goose egg. I'm still wondering about the guy in NY that got the 950 that was supposedly junk what he wanted it for. According to you" Its 2019 and the 950 just ain't going to cut it" . Well why would anyone buy it then? Sounds like alot of BS to me. You sold a system like it was the solution to everyone's problems. Now still the car isnt running. What you got to say about this now? I got a solution. Wait 5 months and then you can say" That AEM isnt going to cut it in 2020?". You need x system. And by stroke of luck, I'm a dealer of X system. Buy from me to solve all your problems. In the end you make out financially. And dont pay anything to support the board. You should be ashamed of yourself. Go back to the Lateral G forums...

efiguy

iTrader: (2)

Besides the fact that you have no clue what you’re talking about, if the OP wants to tell you what he paid vs what he got then ask him. I have nothing to hide.
And if in the future you want to look into some anger management sessions I’d be inclined to help pay for that.

IROCZ1989

iTrader: (1)

Yes you should pay. Your not selling interior pieces or nickle and dime stuff like the hundreds of other members. Your selling brand new systems, thousands of dollars. I know you want me to shut the hell up. Make it happen by paying your fair share. You ain't no better than Hawks, are you? Put your money where you mouth is. Bet you wont. Support the board that supports you.

IROCZ1989

iTrader: (1)

Pay to support the board if your going to sell here as a dealer. Your a dealer, you said so yourself. Dont be a cheapskate. Your making money. Kick back some. Or are you to good for that? Talk is cheap put up or shut up. Hawks does. As well as other vendors. Your gaming the system. Dont take advantage of the board.

efiguy

iTrader: (2)

So if I “sign up” will I get a public apology from you?
Hmmm that alone might be worth it.😉
And for the record I have never, I repeat never Pm’d, emailed or called anyone on here to initiate ANY sale of ANYTHING, ever. They have always, I repeat always contacted me first.

IROCZ1989

iTrader: (1)

I don't owe you an apology for anything. You wont sign up anyway. Dont matter if someone PM'd you or not. Your selling as a dealer here .You told me you are a dealer for AEM and Holley. As a dealer and a vendor you need to support the board your making money off. You can dance around the inevitable and do nothing or you can do the right thing, support the board that supports you. Your choice. If you choose to not support the board like you have for years you should not make known your selling brand new systems as a dealer to members here at a profit, while paying vendors like Hawks who are dealers for ecus and pay to sell here ,this is not a level playing field. One pays to sell ecus one does not. You pocket all the profit one has to pay fees to the board. How's that fair? You know it's not and you continue to take advantage of it.

IROCZ1989

iTrader: (1)

When someone PM's you why dont you direct them to a board vendor that sells ecus? You dont because you are greedy and selfish. Screw the board you make money on is your mantra. Your taking advantage of the system. You know it, now others know it. You dont pay advertiser fees. You just lurk in the background like a snake in the grass selling the same systems that vendors here sell . Your undercutting the paying advertising vendors here. How is that fair?Your being called out. Answer for it.

IROCZ1989

iTrader: (1)

I bet in the price plan wasnt a dual sync distributor. Even Holly and Fast you can use the factory distributor. No matter how "Bet it's less than you think" it's now $360 more for a distributor he didnt need if he went with another system. I agree with General Disorder. He had a 950 and the Holley forums are still alive with regards to the 950. Since he was in that deep he should have stopped there and worked getting that system online with someone who wanted to help, not someone who wanted to sell him something else. He had it running. But you didnt want to deal with it. You just wanted to make a sale. He has a basic combo. EBL would be it if he had not bought anything to begin with. But along comes " That just ain't going to cut it in 2019" If he was going to buy anything, an HP or fast would have been more than adequate. Plenty of support, plenty of in person tuner shops galore. Use stock distributor...No you sell him a system that has probably never been on a thirdgen. Why? Because your an AEM dealer.

KITT1983

iTrader: (3)

what ecus are available for crossfire?

IROCZ1989

iTrader: (1)

I dont know CFI, bit I assume its TBI. So basically any system would work. Or just use what you have and have it tuned.

efiguy

iTrader: (2)

Thank you for solidifying what I said before. You’re really more upset about the brand he bought vs anything else. You just made that very clear here, again. FYI, none of these systems have a clue what they’re on, they’re not human. Just thought I’d mention that.
I didn’t realize everything has to be approved by you first. Now I know, thank you.
Another reminder, I’m a Holley dealer too. Oh and by the way it’s Holley, not Holly.
Thank you again for your transparency.😀

efiguy

iTrader: (2)

KITT
FAST, Holley and FITech make single and dual TBI systems. I’d look into those first if your budget permits.

IROCZ1989

iTrader: (1)

You are a dealer for Holley, but so is Hawks. They pay to advertise, you dont. Your point? I dont care if he bought a Fast or anything. According to others in this thread EBL would have sufficed. It really all doesn't matter. The main point you keep skipping over is you tout your a dealer for xyz systems. And that you have sold not only here many times on this board but on many others( you probably dont advertise on those boards either I can assume). There are dealers on this board that pay advertiser fees to sell the exact same thing you are selling. Difference is you dont support the board like they do. I have made this point many times over but you keep dancing around it. Keep it up. It shows you are fine with the fact your gaming the system and taking sales away from paid vendors. Shows your true colors. This forum is only a cash cow to you, nothing else.

GeneralDisorder

iTrader: (1)

Dynamic EFI's EBL can work for crossfire - you have to cut off the ECM connector and wire in the connectors from a TBI truck, etc. RBob, the developer of the EBL can help with this:

https://www.dynamicefi.com/EBL_Flash.php

The TBI truck harness connectors are readily available new with pins so you could crimp the pins directly to the original harness and just slip them into the connectors and plug it in. The cost for the ECU is very reasonable - only $450 plus shipping. Send RBob a request for information I'm sure he would be happy to get you going.

GD

KITT1983

iTrader: (3)

any links

KITT1983

iTrader: (3)

i have the ham board from DCS

StonersTA

Wanted to post an "update" of sorts and try and get this thread back on track.....
After a LONG summer and Fall spent wiring and re-wiring this AEM system I ended up with the same result I had with the Commander 950. The Car fires only for a few seconds and then shuts down.
I have went over the wiring a couple dozen times. Does that mean its perfect? No, but i'm very confident its correct. I've done a number of "tests" to try and eliminate what the problem could be. I'll run through those;
I have the laptop plugged into the ECU and its getting live readings on the TPS as well as the Battery Voltage. The Battery reads at near 13v at key off/on, when cranking the voltage drops to 10.3 - 10.5 range. I should mention that the fuel pump kicks on as it should (prime the system w/ key on) I have 40psi and the pressure does not drop while cranking, so i'm confident its not a fuel problem. I have done a spark check with an inline tester and I can verify that I have spark, so I feel confident to rule out the coil.
I did spray carb cleaner into the throttle body and then try and fire the car and got no change, car fires once and thats it. So I dont believe the injectors are responding correctly?? I can verify that they have power going out of the relay to the injectors but I have to do more testing to verify power at the injector plug itself.
I went back through and installed new ground straps for the block to chassis to maybe try and help with the voltage drop at cranking. When I spoke with the guy who sold it to me he feels that the voltage drop at cranking is causing the system to begin the shut down process in the ECU itself. However when I did a google search of what voltage should be on a car while cranking, all said in the 10v range is normal, so I'm not sure if thats it or not.
I do have to say that the guy who sold me this has made himself available to me at all hours of any day i've tried to contact him. He's in florida and i'm in ohio, thats caused a HUGE problem trying to relay information to him on what the car is doing. Phone calls and Txt messages can only get you so much, I wish I had the ablility to live video chat with him and let him see the laptop screen. I wanted to make sure I defended him because I see many people on here have sorta came to my defense, feeling that he took advantage of me in some way. Was I desperate? yes! the car has been off the road for a couple years and I did try and throw money at a problem to make it go away. Did he talk me into something? absolutely not! In fact the beginnings of our conversations were him trying to help me with the holley commander 950.
Anyhow, I'm getting off track again. I am just looking for help from anyone out there in the Thirdgen community on where I should focus my attention next. I'm starting to film a video I'll be posting on youtube to show more accurately what the car is doing and what kind of checks i've done so far.
I really want to take this winter and get this car fired up so I can enjoy it when this Ohio winter is gone!

alan91z28

I have not used the AEM system, but does it have a monitor screen so you can see what it is actually doing, ie is it commanding the injectors to be pulsed, the timing it is commanding, etc... I didn't read through all your post, but getting the initial fire-up to happen will be a big step for you as once it is running even roughly you can trouble shoot easier

also I see you seem to be checking the basics, but are you absolutely confident the distributor is timed at least reasonably close to correct? also on the injectors if you use a noid light you can see them pulse if you don't have a diagnostic computer screen on the AEM

efiguy

iTrader: (2)

There are other discrepancies in the sequence of events as well. However I hope we can help him move forward.

GeneralDisorder

iTrader: (1)

10 volts should not be a problem. I've seen stock GM computers continue running (even driving!) into the 5v range. My Trans Am registers high 9's at the ECM when cranking and has never had a problem with the 7165, the EBL, or now the LINK I run it on. I have a monster starter rated for 750+ cubic inches..... because ain't no kill like overkill!

You need to find what you are missing. Is it losing spark or fuel? What is the cranking injector pulse?

GD

IROCZ1989

iTrader: (1)

What's the status on this? Have you got around to getting the car running?