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DFI and ECMDiscuss all aspects of DFI (Digital Fuel Injection), ECMs (Electronic Control Module), scanners, and diagnostic equipment. Fine tune your Third Gen computer system for top performance.
That is what I do. I run both, but I usually just run the heated narrowband to dial in the base VE with a few Learns. The wideband I keep separate from the EBL at first, but I monitor it to see if they both correlate at 14.7. Some guys like to run wideband correction with the EBL. I just use the wideband to tune with at part and wide open throttle, especially under boost. If the system corrected for conditions in boost, different story. Then I would run it all of the time through the EBL. It's just personal preference, really. So typical for a shop to do that by the way, and so unnecessary...
Good morning >Update.. New 02 Sensor installed and took car for a 5 min drive this morning before work and did a VE/Data log learn/log.( when I get home tonight I plan on forwarding you the new tune and data log for u to look at). I noticed looking at data log that now it looks to be learning through out the rpm range. After warm up the INT is fluctuating l but the BLM rarely moves off 172 and the very few times that it did it only dropped into the 160s.. do I need to drive for longer period of times or have I possibly missed a setting/filter some where? what are your thoughts or recommendations..
Thanks
Mikej
Keep flashing in the VE Learns as you go. You'll sometimes see a high BLM reading upon a restart, you might even need to smooth down a few areas in the VE table by hand depending on where you are seeing them. Keep Flashing those Learns in, and yes, would definitely like to see one of the datalogs whenever you get the chance...
Good morning ... car runs better depending on what gear Im in or the load on the car, you'll see when you look at data it wants to keep adding fuel in certain areas that are already @ 100%, Im guessing some changes need to be made somewhere so that the car can continue to tune in these areas. car seem to start ok but seems to turn over like the timing is to advanced. also has excessive knock count but I'm not hearing anything, let me know what your seeing and what needs changed
I thought the data file was attached for some reason it won't upload here .. hmmm possibly to big, do you have an email I can try and send it to or other suggestion?
Mike, your BPC vs VAC numbers are off. Go back into your bin and fix them. Make every row the same value by un-checking the vacuum reference button. Remember, using the WUD Utility, you're running a 406 TBI, 2 Injectors, 90# Fuel Flow @ 20-psi, 1 Bar MAP; BPC vs VAC = 86. Insert the values of 86 into each entry...
The starting issue we touched on earlier on the first page. Larger cams like more Base/Initial timing, this increases cylinder pressure. Disconnect the EST bypass wire and set your base timing by hand to 10* BTDC, then go into the bin and change your SA Initial from 6* BTDC to 10* BTDC. That should take care of the starting issue. These changes require more VE Learns. Patience, you will get there...
The knocking is more than likely false knock. Pull a plug and see what it looks like...
Disconnect the EST bypass wire and set your base timing by hand to 10* BTDC, then go into the bin and change your SA Initial from 6* BTDC to 10* BTDC. That should take care of the starting issue. These changes require more VE Learns. Patience, you will get there...
Mike, while you're at it, cut and paste the 3005 (L98) bin's SA Main Table values into your bin.
change the bps vs vac even though i am running a vacuum ref regulator? sorry Im a little confused
Yes, but don't worry about that at the moment, I am making some changes for you, give me a second, will send you a test bin with a few changes in a few minutes. Just be sure to up your base timing by hand to 10* BTDC with the EST disconnected, then try it out...
Changes are as follows (starting with the bin you just uploaded above);
SA Initial changed to 10* BTDC...
SA Idle State changed to 22.15* BTDC
SA Main Table (3004 bin), replaced 20.04* areas with 22.15*...
SA Main Table Extended, smoothed out...
BPC vs VAC I left alone because the fuel pressure you're running seems to be varying between 20-psi, and 27-psi on page one, so I will leave that on you to finalize. Just make sure your base timing by hand is 10* BTDC with the EST disconnected before running this...
Also, your VE table is very far from being completed. Very far...
- Rob
Last edited by Street Lethal; Aug 16, 2020 at 12:31 PM.
Mike, don't worry about forcing and flattening the lower and unused section of the VE table. Let the Learns dictate what it should be at first, then go back and smooth it out. Don't force it before the VE Learns. Here is your Lower VE table as it is now from the bin you uploaded. Let it Learn in that area again, but don't fight it. The tuning guide you're referencing is for stock and moderately sized cams...
- Rob
Here is your upper VE table on that same bin you uploaded...
Last edited by Street Lethal; Aug 16, 2020 at 12:04 PM.
Hey Rob, just a little curious why you only want 10* initial timing? On a 406 motor I would think that 16-18* would be more realistic of a setting. I use 18* on my 383 and it likes just fine and picked up a tad more vacuum. Not trying to spoil your posts, just curious on the rational behind it. Thanks. Nice thread by the way.
Hey Rob, just a little curious why you only want 10* initial timing? On a 406 motor I would think that 16-18* would be more realistic of a setting. I use 18* on my 383 and it likes just fine and picked up a tad more vacuum. Not trying to spoil your posts, just curious on the rational behind it. Thanks. Nice thread by the way.
Oh I absolutely agree with you on that. I have him set at 22* at SA Idle State, his engine should love that. The 10* Base/Initial is just for engine start up, he was stating it didn't feel right. That's normally the issue when running a cammed engine with the Base/Initial way too low, he had it at 6*. 10* Base/Initial should be a decent mediary. But I definitely have him at 22* Idle State...
Oh I absolutely agree with you on that. I have him set at 22* at SA Idle State, his engine should love that. The 10* Base/Initial is just for engine start up, he was stating it didn't feel right. That's normally the issue when running a cammed engine with the Base/Initial way too low, he had it at 6*. 10* Base/Initial should be a decent mediary. But I definitely have him at 22* Idle State...
- Rob
Oh, OK...Gotcha! Was just curious that's all. Thanks. His VE HS did look a bit rough, peaks and valley's. It looks like he is getting there.
Thank you, made your changes and changed bps vs vac to add fuel and ran the car around the block and its running like a real car finally, still with my changes it surges 2000 to 3000 rpm range and data log is still showing 100% @ 35kpa and up in this area..And you noticed that when looking at the graph I had made changes obviously not know what I was doing. I have to walk away for a little while or the wife is going to string me up supposed to be taking her to there lake.. ill update you soon
Thank you and have a great weekend.>>>> ( just got back from the this morning and noticed I must not of hit send on this message) Ill be playing around with it some today
I can relate. Halfway out the door this past Saturday, was taking the wife to Atlantic City to meet up with some family and friends, and I wouldn't leave the garage. I thought I turned her when I let her take the car down the 1/4 mile years back, but she must have been humoring me lol. She hates this hobby of mine lol. But yeah, can definitely relate lol...
Mike, I seen the graph, and looked over the bin, There are still a few changes I'd like to make to give you more control as opposed the system adding and pulling timing when other certain conditions are being presented, I still haven't seen a datalog yet. I'll PM you my email address, so whenever you get a chance, get a five minute datalog after the car has been warmed up. All gears if possible. Could even floor the throttle if you'd like. Just keep it out of Power Enrichment, and start a VE Learn at the same time so I can visually see what is going on...
That is so funny... My poor wife tries to listen to me explain what I'm trying to accomplish and acts interested when she knows I only partially know what Im talking about.. She has been very impressed with you for taking the time to help a complete stranger though she's says I owe you dinner at the very least. Ok so I increased fuel pressure to 28 psi, (20psi @idle) adjusted BPC vs VAC and AE map/pw accordingly, took the low and high speed VE tables back to original TB4 settings, timing is set to your specs ...and the car is running absolutely fantastic.. Smooth as glass through all the gears, starts instantly, runs down the road @60mph in overdrive w/torque converter engaged excellent, pulls hard from high gear from lower speeds..finally unbelievable . chirping 2nd hard with little throttle, the car feels strong. I haven't floored the car but probably ran it 3/4 throttle I can tell it wants to run better, like its being held back, Im guessing that has to do with PE settings, Ive done a few VE learns and now its only areas the learn is trying to correct is at . @900 to 1100 rpm and 55/60kpa its struggling and searching/surging just a little bit, Im guessing it cannot correct because its @100% in these areas... Ive stopped for awhile because trans is warming up, I'll have a trans cooler on in the next couple days.. but yes Ill get some real data logs forwarded to you...possibly be a few days. Im hoping this thread helps others as much as its helped me.. Rob you've made a great simple road map for a beginner, Ive looked back @ the instructions that the EBL came with and the information is all there but its so detailed its over whelming for the novice..
Send that datalog and we'll figure out what is going on with that area in the VE. I'd like to see what the injector duty cycle is when that is happening. Also remember, if you need RPM cut to avoid over revving the engine (especially when you re-enable Power Enrichment), just go into the SA Main Spark Table and zero out the line(s) you want RPM to cut at, so for example, if you want max RPM to be 5500-RPM, just go in and zero out the 6000 & 6375 RPM lines, and lower the 5600-RPM line right underneath it to blend in with the 5200-RPM line. There are other ways of accomplishing this as well, but this is the easiest way...
Good morning Rob.. I emailed you my current tune and data log yesterday, wanted to let you know in case it went to junk folder,,take a look and let me know what adjustments are need for continued learning in 1100 to 2400 rpm range
ok so my VE is rich at idle and part throttle and I need to fix the IAC since its only reading 0 counts/steps, and I need to be seeing an average of 25-35 steps, Im not sure how to close the throttle blades on crossfire TBs with out throwing them out of balance but ill get my trusty manometer out and figure it out.. thank you.
Interesting about the NB learn settings- I've used only the WB to date and tried to polish off with a NB learn, looks like a repeat- I've read a little about NB/PE but it is spelled out very well here. Also what and where for the WUD smoothing factor- what is the range and application ie is it 0-10? with 0 none and 10 max, at which stage do you use any- I'm assume for min smoothing I would use 3/4 for close learns.
For open loop AFR tables- does any version work....until they don't, I have a couple from a local tuner vs supplied from EBL and they are very different.
Hi Rob..I walked away for a few days to clear my mind,, here's an update.. Ive noticed a pattern of flashing a bin and notice the car runs good as Ive mentioned in past post and as I do ve learns the car seems to continue to want to add fuel in the 1100 to 300o rpm range,45 to 65 kpas after 4 to 5 learns these cells max @100% and by this time even though the ve learns wants to continue to add fuel the car is running rich and is running worse than the first flash..( doesn't matter if I go up or down with the bps to vac I have the same results ) Ive also noticed during learns I never have any - neg changes any where these cells are alway +12.. I reached out to bobr and he thinks I have a o2 voltage problem ( possibly not heating up or not producing enough voltage to function properly causing a false lean condition ) he suggest I do a voltage check which Im not sure how to do.. anyway my question is Im running a ac afs74 heated 02 I know its wired properly but not sure Ive got it grounded in the right place (I've got it grounded to the bell housing and yes there's other stuff grounded at the same location. ( curious if this is causing voltage issue ) I keep running into different opinions.. some say ground it to ecm ( do the mean pin it into the ecm ? and if so what pin do i use?) others say ground to the motor... please advise,, next Im planning on installing WB LC-2 but my mind won't let me rest until I figure this NB issue out... in my WUD the NB 02 always says 4..data log always say 4... WUD diag o2 just flatlines and says 4 with no counts.. should I be seeing fluctuations? was there a setting in the bin that should've been changed when I changed to the afs74 02?... sorry to throw so much at you Im just somewhat frustrated to still be going around the same mountain,
Your help is always appreciated, your lucky you don't live close I would've been on your door step by now
Mike j
Mike, no changes needed in the bin with the heated O2 sensor. With the three wires found on my heated narrowband, I have one white grounded on the firewall behind the fuel pump relay bracket, the other white fish hooked into an open switched port (key on) in the fuse block, and the black wire is connected to the stock O2 wire connector for the ECM. Make sure your O2 wiring is nowhere near any spark plug wires as well...
Have you found a running difference (significant or otherwise) between premium O2 sensor brands? My go is NGK/NTK as ACD/Delphi seems to be a mixed bag of country of origin.
To be honest, the first heated O2 sensor I ever ran was from the C4 LT1, and I never gave any other sensor a chance after that because it was just dead reliable....
Hey Guys - I got the EBL P4 installed and WUD is working great. I tried installing TunerPro and it won't start. It displays the splash screen for 3 seconds and dies. running windows 10. I tried launching as admin, and also in safemode. no luck. also tried an older version, no luck.
Any ideas on what to try?
UPDATE: Was able to try another laptop running Windows 8.1 and it works. (which is not my garage PC) The other laptop it does not work on gives absolutely no clue what the issue may be. I've tried turning off firewall, shutting down some services, no luck.
Last edited by LiquidBlue; Nov 30, 2020 at 06:06 PM.
Hey Guys - I got the EBL P4 installed and WUD is working great. I tried installing TunerPro and it won't start. It displays the splash screen for 3 seconds and dies. running windows 10. I tried launching as admin, and also in safemode. no luck. also tried an older version, no luck.
Any ideas on what to try?
UPDATE: Was able to try another laptop running Windows 8.1 and it works. (which is not my garage PC) The other laptop it does not work on gives absolutely no clue what the issue may be. I've tried turning off firewall, shutting down some services, no luck.
I am running TunerPro RT on a Windows10 machine. Possibly try the RT version? Shouldn't be different in compatability. I would think that the issue is either your download or a setting on your machine that is preventing it from running.
Hi guys I know its been awhile Ive had multiple projects going on with the car , I wanted to jump on and thank street lethal and buccaneer for all the help. Its a steep learning curve and I'm convinced I couldn't have gotten to where I'm at without your guys help.. I still haven't had the car on a dyno and am still driving around data logging and fine tuning, but wanted to let you guys know the car is running very good I'm getting 21 mph on the open road and ran a 12.60 at local track last week.. I'm positive there more left.
Seriously Thank you
Hi guys I know its been awhile Ive had multiple projects going on with the car , I wanted to jump on and thank street lethal and buccaneer for all the help. Its a steep learning curve and I'm convinced I couldn't have gotten to where I'm at without your guys help.. I still haven't had the car on a dyno and am still driving around data logging and fine tuning, but wanted to let you guys know the car is running very good I'm getting 21 mph on the open road and ran a 12.60 at local track last week.. I'm positive there more left.
Seriously Thank you
Originally Posted by Buccaneer
Thank you and...WOW! Nice. 12.6 is great. There is more in it, GJ!
You're more than welcome, and great job! Now lets see some 11's...
Hey Street Lethal, Buccaneer suggested this thread to me....as I am in a similar position as MJohn! LOL
Not good with PCs, etc ....The comments were very helpful/educational... I need some help/advice with a EBL/HAM
purchased from Dynamic & Crossfire (Tom & Bobr have booth been very helpful !!!)
Background: '82 Corvette (original owner) (~ 95,000miles) I have rebuilt the engine and replaced/repaired/adjusted
many other engine & drive train components. The '82 ECM (with hypertech chip) runs the car OK...However,
I get a code 44 (Lean Condition). My testing indicates the ECM is NG...Hence the reason for the EBL.
Tom @ Xfire graciuosly supplied a starter BIN. Now the problem; the '82 ECM gives nice a fairly smooth idle..
the EBL/BIN gives me a rough idle (cold or hot) (Although, overall performance seems OK ) So, I think the BIN needs some tweaking...
NOTE: The Engine is 100% stock...Not looking to increase performance ..Original Factory Performance is OK...
Just want the car to start and run OK ..a nice day driver....
If I send you the BIN I am using, could yo have a look at it and advise about the rough idle situation?
Thanks in advance!
It's because of your VE table Rodney. What size injectors are you running as stock, how much fuel pressure are you running, and what is your base timing w/EST disconnected?
Hey Rob and Rodney, just saw these posts and just looked at the tune. The value in the BPC vs VAC is set at 136 which would be a 61# inj. Should be 67# at 124. Pressure should be set at 13psi and the tune is stock base timing of 6*. Not sure what's going on at the moment with this? IMO, I would wake it up a bit.
Sorry, Don't know what size injectors....standard, original equipment, Fuel Pressure 12~13, Base Timing is 6
Before we touch the VE table, need to confirm you're running 61# injectors as stock, because that is what the utility is telling me based on your programmed BPC vs VAC and fuel 13-psi pressure. Pretty sure 61# is stock for the later LO5's, but I don't want to assume the same size injectors for the earlier Crossfire's...
Hey Rob and Rodney, just saw these posts and just looked at the tune. The value in the BPC vs VAC is set at 136 which would be a 61# inj. Should be 67# at 124. Pressure should be set at 13psi and the tune is stock base timing of 6*. Not sure what's going on at the moment with this? IMO, I would wake it up a bit.
Awesome, I can make a few changes and upload the Bin here if it will help...
If you want to, that works. So, unless my information is incorrect, the setting is off. What is the number on the top of the injectors? They will be different since the 82 had two different size injectors. 61# may be correct?
They will be different since the 82 had two different size injectors. 61# may be correct?
Correct, they are staggered. Best bet would be to Flash in the Bin and provide a datalog to see where the fuel trim is averaging during idle, then just adjust the VE manually based on that. Could always update the BPC later once you have confirmation. You could also do a quick VE Learn and just follow what the engine is asking for using the VE Learn grin as a guide. Ronald, I didn't go too crazy whatsoever, just made a few areas trigger sooner, and am smoothing out the LO5 VE table to be used with your setup. The datalog in relation with the tuning always has the final say in the end...
Okay, just allowed the AE & PE to trigger a tad sooner, as well as adjusted your Launch Mode. I did not touch your Sa Main Table (though I wanted to). The VE was the biggest concern. Correct your BPC if need be once you confirm your injector size(s). When you're at operating temp, tell us what your INT/BLM are as the VE will need to be tweaked...
Thanks for the BIN! May try it tonite if the lady of the house doesn't have any projects for me.....LOL
Didn't understand most of the other items you mentioned...but will figure it out! (Hopefully )
Thanks Rob, digging through my files now. There is much improvement that can be done with the SA once VE is done. This tune was based off of one of Bob's base tunes he provides, but learns made to it specifically for 82/84 corvette. I do not know for sure which tune from Bob was selected. I think this tune can be tweaked a lot more and is only a good starting point to save someone a lot of tuning up front with limited knowledge. I guess Rondey will be another beta tester of sorts.
You'll figure it out as you go. When it gets right down to it you're just narrowing down a range. Remember though, it's the LO5 VE table that I smoothed out, and although the injector sizes are close, it will still need to be tweaked in order to be perfect (stoich), and that is where the datalogging comes in...
Nice thread by the way. 
This tune was based off of one of Bob's base tunes he provides, but learns made to it specifically for 82/84 corvette. I do not know for sure which tune from Bob was selected. I think this tune can be tweaked a lot more and is only a good starting point to save someone a lot of tuning up front with limited knowledge. I guess Rondey will be another beta tester of sorts.