Hi guys ,,, does anyone know somebody ( speed shop ) in Southwest missouri or close that is familiar with tuner pro and EBLs that has a dyno and that can tune my car? Please advise
Thanks

MJ

 

Believe it or not, with what Dynamic has posted on their website and a little searching on here you should be able to get really dang close on your own. If you read, and yes it is a bit lengthy and data packed, the "Introduction to tuning" sections 1 & 2, unless you have some crazy combo, you should be on the road and happy. Members here will be able to help you along as you post logs. Eventually you would be able to go to the dyno and finish your tune on your own, or at least know the software and system well enough to work with a tuner local to you, the tuner may guide you, you may be the one doing the changes.

 

Thank you Kyle for getting back to me, I'm a 50 year old guy that can rebuild your motor but knows nothing about computers and tuning, I took it to a local speed shop and the car set for 2 months and they did nothing so I finally went and got the car back. I followed the supplied directions and was able to do download the basic tune TB tune and the car idles and drives OK but I can tell it needs fuel and timing. I'm have heated NB 02 and have read with what Ive built I should be using a WB set up, Do you have any advice on which WB would be best? Bobr doesn't have the TT-1 anymore or is this a question I should put to the forum ? I want to start the learns but don't want to waste time with NB if I really should be using WB car is 82 vette( motor is a skip white 406ci, nkb 200cc aluminum heads, renegade with TBs bored 49mm still have balance ports, 90lb injectors, 530/528 lift roller, 220/224 duration 111lsa, 10.5 comp, 4l60, 2500 stall, 355 gears, any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Mike J

 

Mike,

You are trying to dial in a much wilder combo than most and certainly mine. I will face this one day with my 'Vette (I am goign AFR210's Procharger, Lloyd Elliot Cam, Ported LT4 Intake). Since my IROC only has a Superchager, headers, and rockers done to the engine, it wasn't difficult to get dialed in using VE learns based off BLMs. My stock injectors are now seeing 100+% Duty Cycle under boost, so I won't be taking this tune much further power wise. Now I am just working on the AE and timing, just getting everything dialed in. Eventually when I get around to the 'Vette build I will also be doing the same research as you and be looking into a WB set up.

I still think with the information you have received, you should be able to use your NB to get in a pretty good derivable state. With mine, I started out with a short drive, then each one got longer, and each time I tried to hit more data points. Between each drive I would open the VE learn in TunerPro, see where it had made corrections, and then smooth them in by adjusting points up or down near by. Then on to the next drive. My biggest issue getting up and going was some stupid wiring mistakes - although this lead me down a path where I found a lot of information I didn't know before.

BTW, I am no much younger than you and I am getting my feet wet on this tuning stuff. The TPI/TBI is old tech and my thinking was it is best to cut teeth here before jumping into more advanced systems.

 

Mike, if you'd like, I can make a few suggestions to help you out. You definitely do not need a shop to tune it for you. Just tell me which bin you are starting with and we can all take it from there...

- Rob

 

OK.. thank you again Kyle Ill start driving and data logging and see where it takes me, My goal with this project was to have a good running 82 that looked as close to stock as possible (The car only has 12k original miles) I did have to use a aeromotive FP regulator to handle the fuel pressure so that's the only give away at a glance. I also agree with the learning curve but with this OBDI stuff being so antiquated its hard to find any support locally, In retrospect I almost wish I had gone more modern LS1/LS7 route for at least if I have a tuning problem I could go out and knock a 15 year old off his bicycle and could help tune the car..lol, again I cannot Thank you enough and If there's any questions you might have that Ive possibly encountered with my build please don't hesitate to ask..
MikeJ
'

 

You guys are great thank you...EBL_F_TB4.BIN

 

Putting aside the above bin;

* what is your desired Initial/Base Timing setting; 0, 4", 6*, 8*, 10*, etc...?
* what is your desired Idle State timing; 20*, 22*, 24*, etc...?
* what is your desired air/fuel ratio target at idle; 14.7, or 14.2 (w/10% ethanol included)?
* do you know how to use the Utility for different injectors being used with engine size?
* what is your desired fan temp range (on/off setting)? This is important as this effects your VE Learn range, coolant temp sensor wise...
* what RPM do you want to idle in, in both P/N and Gear?

... we'll just start with these basics.

- Rob

 

base timing 6.. and Ive st the same in initial SA
I don't know what my desired idle state should be,but it is set at the default 20.04
AFR I assume would be 14.7, will never be running ethanol, I have access to 93/without
and yes I used the Utility to calculate set up and copy and pasted to BPC vs VAC
I don't know what my desired fan temp range is set to, so it will be set at whatever the default would be in that bin.....the car has a 180 therm, edelbrock water pump and dewitts radiator...it runs @ 180 dead on doesn't get hot at all , with that said the car really hasn't been driven.
750 in park and 700 in gear... not sure if that would be ok because car has a fairly aggressive lope to it
This is what ive done so far,, set timing SA 6...set idle for park and drive (But car doesn't idle exactly what Ive set parameters at, but very close) just a note > Throttle body's are perfectly balanced
In scalars Ive set Number cylinders to 0 per instructions
and per BobR I changed the SA main table 1600rpms all the way down to 400 rpms.

 

Good. Aggressive cams like closer to 10*, but if the engine is starting okay, stick with it...

That is fine, more cam usually like a tad more, but it is fine for now...

Good, so maintain it at 14.7...

Utility is unchecked by vacuum reference, so for example; 406 w/90# injectors at 15-psi would be 100-BPC.

The bin you're using is set for; 95/80 Celsius (203/176 Fahrenheit), so these values need to be set in your preferences in the WUD for your Learns...

This is easy to compensate for, I have an aggressive cam too, and I am at 875-RPM P/N and 825-RPM Drive...

Good. So long as your Base equals your Initial that is great. From there, adjust your BPC vs Vacuum for the cubic inches you are running as well as injector size in conjunction with fuel pressure using the Utility for your BPC vs VAC table. Remember to adjust your Acceleration Enrichment tables (the bin you are using is set for 65# injectors, so do the calculation with your 90# injectors but you will need to compensate the fuel pressure if you are running more than stock); 65/90 = 0.72

- Rob

 

I follow you on everything except where to calculate and where to make these changes > (Acceleration Enrichment tables)>>> (the bin you are using is set for 65# injectors, so do the calculation with your 90# injectors but you will need to compensate the fuel pressure if you are running more than stock); 65/90 = 0.72 ) ?

are these changes made in the scalars? or tables?....and I'm assuming you don't mean the changes i made using the utility for the BPC vs VAC

just a note....I am using a vac ref fuel reg as well aeromotive 13301 fuel pressure is set at 20lb I also made sure and checked that in utility before cut and pasting to BPc vs Vac

 

Okay, so now we have to compensate by correcting your fuel flow numbers due to the increase in fuel pressure for your Acceleration Enrichment. I am forced to assume that you already compensated the increased fuel pressure in the Utility when you determined your BPC as you just pointed out;

So, stock TBI fuel pressure is calculated at 12 to 13 psi, in this case I will use 13-psi. Your new flow rate for your 90# injectors should be approximately 112# at 20-psi of fuel pressure. So we take the stock setting of 65# in the bin, divide it by 112# which is your new flow rate at 90# w/20-psi, and we get 0.58. In Tuner Pro, go into your Acceleration Enrichment MAP and TPS scalers (AE MAP & TPS PW), highlight the entire row of each, and multiply it by 0.58. Then save it. This will compensate for your new injector flow rate with regards to your Acceleration Enrichment...

- Rob

 

i found them in maps and just want to be clear there are 4...AE-MAP FILTER AE-MAP PW AE TPS FILTER AE-TPS PW... Thx for you patience

Mike J

 

Mike, you are only adjusting the two Pulse Width tables in AE (one is MAP based, one is TPS based);

AE - MAP PW
AE - TPS PW

Highlight each cell in both tables and multiply them by 0.58... then save.

- Rob

Edit: Should look like this when you're done...

 

kewl kewl thanks again... your very patient..Im at work until 8 soon as I get home Ill make the changes...will I be good to go at that point as far as fueling goes?

 

The fueling will be close as your base, but every engine is different. If you adjusted your SA Main Table as RBob has told you in that specific RPM area, then it's only the matter of setting up your VE Learns and allowing the system to self correct in your coolant temp range (180 - 200 degrees). This is why it is imperative to set those targets in the WUD Learn parameter. As the VE Learns, all other areas will work themselves out. If you need to throttle the engine until she gets warmed up, do that very thing. Once it is warmed up (180 degrees), you can then set your IAC steps simply by adjusting the idle screw. You will want to target between 25 to 30 steps (at idle) when fully warmed up, but don't worry about that until she is fully warmed up, and after you get a few VE Learns under your belt...

- Rob

 

You are awesome I cannot tell how much I truly appreciate you sharing your knowledge and time.. Ill keep you posted.
Have a blessed evening
Mike J

 

Mike, we're not done just yet. Remember, with bigger cams comes an increase in range. Two areas you will want to adjust, and I will explain why. But before I do, be sure you adjust your RPM targets in IAC - Idle Speed in both P/N and Drive. After you do that, adjust the following areas;

IAC - High Idle Speed (change it from 825-RPM to 1200-RPM)...

(Note there is an error in the XDF, it might show as IAC - B9in Idle Speed, it should read High Idle Speed). Regardless though, increase it to 1200-RPM to allow your engine to breath at idle...

Also this area...;

BLM - RPM Learn Threshold (change it from 3600-RPM to 6000-RPM)...

This increases your VE Learn range...

- Rob

 

yep i see it..and you are correct spelled wrong, Im going to copy your idle settings for P/N and drive

 

Mike, set the IAC Drive & P/N RPM's as follows (see below);



Note that this is why you raised the IAC High Idle Speed from 825 to 1200...

- Rob

 

Perfect...Im just about to head home and make changes,
thank u thank u

 

A few of these threads is why I went EBL. Plenty of help.

See, you don't need to knock a kid off his bike to get it tuned.

 

lol. been amazing, I spent 2 months putting this car together only to take it to a speed shop where it sat for 3 months only to finally lose patience take the car back completely messed up, and in one day have a complete stranger help me from start to finish with setting base tune so I can move forward and start enjoying the car...sooo thankful

 

Mike, don't forget to update these;

Airflow - Displacement Scalar (change from 305.98 to 406.00)

INJ - MPG Injector Flow Constant (change from 64.90 to 90.00)

- Rob

 

gotcha...Displacement Scalar done... ill fix inj-mph tonight...question when i changed the map - pw & tps- pw I notice when I reopened them they round to a number that is close but not exact...I'm guessing that's normal since I notice it did the same when i changed sa timing and displacement scalar

 

Yes, that is completely normal....

- Rob

 

Hi guys, this is an interesting thread on EBL. I totally get it from the OP perspective about tuning. I'm not saying you are necessarily wrong, but for a 406CI motor it seems you are a little on the low side on the fuel pressure. Instead of running 20psi, I would run at least 25/26psi or slightly higher to feed that motor what it wants. I run 24psi on my 383 with that same regulator and injectors and the motor likes it , but my cam is a bit larger than what you are running also. I'm not telling you what to do, but it just seems low IMO. Good thread none the less, good work Street Lethal.

 

Hi Buccaneer hope you're well..lets talk about fuel pressure for a minute and possibly you guys can help me trouble shoot this as well..Tom I did install the tre -343 (255LPH ) and aeromotive 13303 I switched to the heavy spring and for some reason I cannot get more than 20psi, If I try to tighten down the adjustment screw any more the needle ( aeromotive gauge )just flutters, Ive retraced my fuel lines all the way back to the tank just to make sure there was no restrictions ( 0r damage ) and all looks fine. My question is could my oem fuel filter be restricting the flow? ( by the way it is new ) and if it is please advise a filter you would recommend preferably that would go in stock location.. if t you guys feel as if this is not where my problem is please give me suggestions.

 

or could I possibly have the wrong injectors? Ive read where there are different 90lb gm injectors?

 

correction aeromotive 13301 fuel regulator

 

before you guys jump in I called aeromotive tech support and the gave me a couple of suggestions to check out

 

Hey John, That's odd about your FPR. Are you positive that you installed the heavy spring, just thinking out loud. What type fuel system are you running, parallel plumb by chance? If so, what size is your return line? Once you get it figured out, I firmly believe that you need to raise the pressure to 25 or more. I would think that you should be able to achieve 450hp or more at the motor since I'm at 435/440 now with mine. If everything looks ok, you could replace the filter again just to make sure, but it should be fine IMO. I like to use WIX products,but that's just me. 33482 on the fuel filter.

Oh, and on the injectors from what I have seen is that a lot of dealers are using what appears to be 80# injectors and running them at 15psi to achieve 90# and calling them 90# injectors. I had mine flow checked by a local shop that I use so I know exactly how they flow at 90# and set TunerPro up to match that value exactly. To tell ya the truth, I made some more changes to my tune and need to get it back on a dyno again to check a few things and make a few more tweaks. I think I can get it down to 12.20 which would be nice. I am getting close...

Post up what Aeromotive has said, I'm curious, thanks.

 

Thanks for your input and part number, its parallel I copied your plumbing, return line is factory I believe 5/8. I am using the heavy spring (aeromotive thinks i have screwed the fittings to far into the regulator and the metal part of the diaphragm is catching the threads.. well see tonight, I agree on the fuel pressure I was anxious to get the car going before I revisited the fuel pressure issue.. but in hind sight that the wrong approach silly of me to tune on the car just to have to re-tune after I fix pressure problem. how about all the work street lethal did helping me out.. pretty kewl, Im going to owe all you guys a nice dinner out at the very least. I backed into streets lethals calculations and believe based on 26 psi, flow rate 127 divided into #65 I come up with .51 for ae - map pw ae-tps pw corrections. Am I calculating correctly?

 

Yes, 90# @ 13-psi upped to 26-psi = 127# flow rate; 65/127 = 0.51

- Rob

 

Checked the Regulator and it is operating as it should, I was able to remove plugged outlet on inline y block on return side and there was no fuel returning to tank @ 20psi. I'm pulling fuel pump to make sure I'm not loosing pressure @ pump /hose connection. Curious can anyone tell me if the voltage to pump is regulated by ecm or does it run at a continuous 13.5 volts?

 

Found problem with fuel pressure in tank, clamp was loose at fuel pump/hose, working perfect now...26psi

 

Nice! Good luck on the tuning, should run like a BEAST!

 

I am curious what the change on the IAC - B9in Idle Speed (High Idle) setting does? It is my understanding that this is just used as a manual trigger to raise idle speed. I imagine uses like off roading with on-board air compressors or a PTO driven hydraulic setup. This doesn't effect anything for normal driving/idle characteristics does it?

 

Patrick, no no, in this case, it is meant for during the warm up transition. Remember we're changing Idle RPM significantly from the stock 500-RPM to the cammed 800-RPM. High Idle RPM is its' ceiling at idle, think cold section of the Idle RPM scaler. If you change your Idle RPM and set it for 875-RPM in P/N, and 825-RPM in Drive at 180-degrees Fahrenheit, but then keep your High Idle RPM remaining at 825-RPM, what do you think will happen when you start the engine at say 40-degrees Fahrenheit where the Idle RPM is targeted for a much higher 1000-RPM in the scaler due to the increase in colder air density? You will find it being restricted...

- Rob

 

This is what I have after 5 drives and re-flashes, Car starts good drives ok with no real power and surges/misses 60ish mph and wants to load up and I thought the car was starting to possibly starting to run hot by the time I was done..( it was really hot here that day though )...Is there a guess on how long or many drives for the ebl to start really dialing its self in? I'm only seeing a small window in the 1100 to 1500 rpm range that's even remotely close to 128 and I also thought I would see a much higher DC %...any changes you experts see that I need to manually change? Thx

 

Mike, upload your latest bin you are using. If the engine starts and idles good, but you're lacking power mid range and up top, would need to see a picture of the VE graph to see where your fueling is throughout. Upload the actual datalog if you can as well...

- Rob

 

Gotcha..when I get home tonight Ill get it up loaded...thanks

 

Did you remember to disable Power Enrichment in both MAP & TPS by maxing them out?

The system won't learn in Open Loop without a wideband, so disable PE when doing Learns. I mention this because one of your pics above shows PE Active...

- Rob

Edit: Look at the pic below Mike, see how PE is enabled (Y), and Learn is disabled (N), yet in the other pics PE is disabled (N) but Learn is enabled (Y)? Max out the PE trigger points while you are doing your VE Learns, 100% for TPS and 100-kPa for MAP. Once your Learns are completed then put them back to the factory settings for the time being...

 

Would it be to much trouble sending me a pic of what I need to change I'm only seeing PE-TPS % Threshold.. not seeing PE- Map. The only other change I made other than your suggestion was> to disable lean cruise I set the minimum MPH to a high value of 200. Curious why do you think is some learning happening at certain RPMs? Am I correct in thinking its learning inside its set parameters? Attachment is just a recap of what you've helped me with so far,

Thanks
Mikej

 

Mike, the Learns that you are seeing will vary because of the load due to the gear you happen to be in at the particular time. Meaning sometimes you won't reach the stock threshold found in the bin with Power Enrichment at a given RPM and kPa depending on the gear. But anyway, see the picture below. Set the TPS (all rows) to 100%, set the MAP (all rows) to 100-kPa, and set the BLM Learn RPM Threshold to a max value of 6000-RPM. Then go back and redo your Learns. Once your Learns are completed, set the TPS & MAP PE parameters back to where they originally were for now...

- Rob

Edit: Disregard the MAP PE trigger setting and only do the TPS PE trigger, I keep forgetting you're running EBL Flash, and not the EBL P4. The XDF is entirely different. Regardless though, insert 100% for the PE TPS Enable setting, insert 6000-RPM for PE Minimum RPM Threshold, and make sure your BLM RPM threshold is 6000-RPM max, then redo your VE Learns. The idea, of course, is to force Closed Loop throughout your entire RPM band for O2 correction to commence. Return all of your settings to where they were for now when you're done..

 

You absolutely can use this as a manual trigger to raise the idle speed. It has nothing to do with the engine warming up. Later cars used the switch in the power steering line to bump the idle speed up of the pressure got high. Keeps the rpms from dropping. I used to use the B9in with a switch in my clutch pedal that would raise the rpm when I let off the clutch. The idea was to make the car less likely to stall, more friendly when engaging the clutch. It worked fairly well.

 

Thank you for the settings and explanation, I actually understood what you shared with me, The education is as important to me as getting help with the tuning. Have a great night Ill keep you posted
Mike j

 

Hi Street hope your having a good day..Update:So I made recommended changes and went on a learn/data log run and car ran noticeably better, car stayed in closed loop entire time except for idle and deceleration and PE mode stayed off. I am still having the exact same issue with 02 only reading intermittently and also noticed in thedata diag there was no 02 movement, all electrical connections to 02 were fine so I removed it to find it completely black as expected, I have a new one coming tomorrow and will keep you posted as soon as i get it replaced and make another run. If there's anything else you think I should check please advise..Question> is the INT: on the WUD supposed to fluctuate? or should it always be @128
Thanks
Mikej

 

Yes, it will fluctuate in Closed Loop. the INT is your short term adjustment, BLM is your long term adjustment. We consider 128 to be the magic number for "stoich", so this is the target. Anything above 128 and the ECM is adding fuel, anything below it is pulling fuel. This is in Closed Loop mode. Disabling the PE forces correction throughout the RPM band, as you are now well aware. When in PE though, you exit Closed Loop and the INT/BLM will both (should both) lock at 128. Once you start seeing only a +1 or -1 throughout the entire VE table within a ten degree span (say 190 degrees to 200 degrees if that is your target temperature), then you are done with the VE Learns.Sometimes the O2 cursor in the VE Learn table will stay green, or it will go back to white. This is normal, especially if you are still in Closed Loop as it is occurring. However, if you drop out of Closed Loop when it happens, either it isn't getting/staying warm enough (especially if you're running long tubes), or if it is fouling out like you're suggesting. You don't need a wideband at the moment, but definitely consider a heated O2 sensor from an LT1...

- Rob

 

My thinking was to get the car dialed in as good as possible with a NB ( ac delco AFS74 heated o2) and then install a WB to further tune the car. Would you recommend replacing NB at that time or would you add a bung and keep both NB/WB 02s so to switch occasionally from one to the other to monitor how the car is running between the two, or is that just redundant? and do you have a recommendation on a WB system.
Mike J

Note Interesting what you said about 02 possibly not getting hot enough) when I pulled out the 02 this morning I noticed the speed shop I had taken my car to at had replaced the AFS74 heated 02 that was in the car when I took it to them with a non-heated off brand