The first post of something truely new, and it gets one comment.
This is sad.

Few want to read the archives, and fewer yet are actively doing anything to explore new ground. Pretty some it will be just rehashes of rehashed posts, rehashed again.

If that's what you want well the universe is perfect at dealing up what you want.

No need to respond to this post, just a wake up call for those that might be interested in pushing the Envelope.

 

Bruce, I think quite a few people learned something from that post, and actually from the other post that is about datalogging the wide band. It's just that for me anyhow, I took it in to try and understand some of the instructions. Like the LDAA I imagine is some sort of "load 'x' value" and is always accompanied by a hex number 26? (don't remember right now) before the hex location. It just takes time to figure out something like that on your own. The patch is nice but for lots of folks it might be useless. Now if someone would care to explain the instructions in more detail than I think you would take a next step to just showing us a known patch so that folks can start understanding better. And you are right though, for 90% of the people here they will just be satisfied with making small changes with a bin editor, they won't want to change any instructions. I am someone who would like to learn the code but it's kinda tough to go through it and just pick it up.

 

What?

 

It's about the concept.
You can change the code.
If someone doesn't understand the concept, it's question time. Up until today the post was just dieing.
People have to get out there and just do it, or the list will just get moldy and die.

 

I think pushing the envelope and exploring new ground is the best thing. While the thirdgen boards is a great source of information. More like invaluable, a lot of the members hate to think outside of the box. I can never seem to keep myself out of trouble. Always wanting to try something new or different.

I have been reading as much as I can when it comes to proms like traxions article, yours, ecmguys, and the gm rcm board. The passion to try new things is there. Just barely any knowledge on the subject. I just got my burner today. Now I can really dive into it.

One thing I run into alot is that on message boards the seasoned users have done their part in the past and have gotten board with it and leave. Then you have a bunch of newbies that arent up to the level to venture into new areas. Got to keep it fresh and the mind thinking or we get lazy and bored.

 

Working on many questions... but to be honest much of what I've read is over my head atm, but with time and patience I am learning.

On another note is it a Green Light for the POWWOW this weekend? I am planning on being there on Saturday, notebook, digital camera, fresh batteries and lots of questins I am sure, but Sunday is my youngest boy's 4th B-day gotta be home. cheers, Bob

 

i have not seen the small block chevy reach its end of development yet . therefore something can always be done a little differently concerning the programming .
i cut up the factory runners changing it from 8 individual runners
to 4 oval shaped runners along with new heads , cam exhaust . i am just at the onset of the learning to program the combo and the concept may be similar to tuning other setups but you never know what might be learned from trying different combos ..
mike

 

I'm just waiting for this weekend!!! and for the school to be over with.
You'll be seeing a LOT more posts from me this summer , but I think you already know that.

 

What post are you talking about?

 

Grumpy, with all due respect I disagree. There are a number of posts that could be taken care of by Trax's prom article, the P730 article that he wrote, and the archives. I understand. But people do need to have the questions answered that are not "ground breaking" and "theoretical". Questions about knock retard, timing, and the 3D tables and how they affect the rest of the engine for example, are not easy to understand by the novice. and in order for people to reach the level of alot of the people on this board they need to understand the basics. To be honest I thought that was the main purpose of this board, to remove the misconceptions and show that it is not unreasonable for a common joe to burn his own chips. But if this board turns into a mostly theoretical question and answer session that you need an EE degree to decipher I think it will tend to shy people away from doing things themselves.

I believe that there is room on the board for both types of questions. I enjoy reading alot of stuff about the code even though I don't understand some (or most in some cases) of it. I don't reply to it because I don't have anything constructive to add. I wouldn't know where to start in most cases. But on the other hand the tuner questions are what brings me back to this broard day after day.

I also think that a majority of people are satisfied with just using a tuner and altering the code that way. Many don't have the time (and I think we all can admit it takes alot of time) to get deep into the raw code or maybe they aren't into programing and are willing to settle for interperation of the exsisting code and working with that. I think it's admirable that they are attempting to understand something that might be compleately foriegn to them.

I would also like to take this oppertunity to thank everyone that has helped me out with my questions that have been far from ground breaking and probably even repetative. Never the less they were still important for me to understand how my computer worked and what I neded to do to get my car to perform to my expectations.

Jim

 

I agree with SATURN! Much is over my head! With time and a lot of guidance we will learn! So Grumpy, lead us the way! There are many here who want to learn! I am just starting to understansd the whole chip burning thing and source code, hacking.............is over most of our heads...... Pleaase lead us into the light

 

LOL... you you guys realize HOW MANY OLD POSTS THERE ARE? If I wanted to read through them all it would LITERALLY take years. Well I don't have years to learn this chip burning thing. Maybe a year ago when this board was smaller there weren't so many "old posts" and one could read through them. Well now there are thousands, and no one seems to want to answer questions... they just refer people to the archives. So no one learns anything and no one can help anyone with the more simple questions. You know why good posts sink? Its because all of us newbies are looking for answers that are supposedly buried deep in the archives somewhere, and we are desperately pleading for simple answers. Maybe answer the questions so that the post can just die and the good posts will stay at the top.

Oh BTW, I don't even have a clue how I would push this so called envelope, it seems to be shrouded in mystery, only seen by a few. This is a DIY-PROM board designed to help people learn correct? Reading History is a good way to learn about it. Reading posts about some computer language is of no help, I don't understand the terms nor concept, and the ONLY amount of reading that would get me there appears to be about a year's worth. I am not asking to be given ANYTHING on a silver platter here. Just some assistance in getting started, which seems to be the thing most frowned upon... for some reason.

/Rant

 

Very good attitude. That is exactly what the problem is. You want to take something extremely complicated and make it so easy that anyone can do it. You want instant gratification with no side effects. You don't want to work for anything but rather have it all done for you. Now what part of DIY is that. You even said it in your post, "Do It Yourself", not Do It For Me. If no one wants to learn through a little work than don't bother. This isn't high school where they'll pass you just to get you out the door. On this forum no one owes you anything. You want instant gratification: take your car and your money down to Ed Wright and spend a few weeks with him and tell him to do it up and you're not leaving til it's done, and don't worry about the money. Oh, you don't have that much money? Well maybe call up Hypertech or Ed Wright or JET or any other chip company and ask them for to help you burn your own. That way you don't have to deal with the people on this board.

 

i agree hectorsm! If that were the case, the learning curve here would be the shape of Frankenstein's head! I agree this chip burning is not easy, however,once you have the materials and start burning your own, things start making sence! A lot of people are here to perfect thier cars and to learn. I would say that the learning curve here is sort-of like the hill I use to put a load on my car to get the readings of my BLM's

MSOT OF SU ANEYWEEY


(most of us anyway)

 

What post was you talking about ,Grumpy?

 

I have been visiting this message board for some time now and so far I have been helped by searching in old posts but many posts are referring to other posts that are so old that you are not able to view them today.

The subjects on the DIY Prom board differ in a wide range from something simple like how do I disable VATS to something difficult like how do I add new source code or theories on how to get a Wb O2 to function with the ECM.

I very well understand if it isn't so funny to answer the same question for the 10th time. But many people turn to this message board asking for help. And you have to learn how to crawl before you can learn how to walk.

Have you never thought of dividing the DIY Prom board into one board for General Prom questions and another Prom board with Advanced Prom questions. Or maybe add a FAQ with the most common questions.

-Johan

 

Great point Johan! Maybe another intro article to give others the basic idea or general purpose of chip burning..ie part throttle tuning (already done) and the purpose of PE tuning (slef explanitory in TC). Maybe some good starting points in the timming tables and what direction to go in.... I know that many of these topic's are in the archives, however, making another intro article to cut down the number of repeated posts, It might be worth it!

 

Might not be a bad idea. Never used to get much in way of advanced topics over here, but lately people are chining in on the stuff. There is some possible merit to a split...

Naahh, I would think that Trax's intro article should address most of the basic questions. An addition of a FAQ might be helpful, but it would require that people read it (much like Trax's article) for it to be effective.

So, irrespective of the level of dedication exhibited to educate at the outset, I am certain we are amidst ourselves. Who here, with any level of self-respect, can claim that they read the instructions before embarking on a new effort?

Although I agree, the rehashing of old posts, at the expense of new idea visibility & cooperative effort, is muddying.

Maybe another version of the 'sticky' feature for new idea development and innovative approaches? Maybe a split is in order, just to keep things apace.

Blah blah blah...

 

It's about understanding and reasoning. If you take months, maybe years to build up a hot engine for your car, what makes you think you're going to have it tuned in a day? How are you going to learn what you don't know the first time you look at it? Yet the first thing people do is ask questions before even looking around. Why, because they don't understand what is going on around them. But, do you think that by answering the question they are going to have the full knowledge of what you're saying? How can they if they haven't bothered to look around. You can put up all the sticky posts and intro articles but if people don't take the time to read them, nothing has been accomplished. You're right, most of us don't read instructions on how to operate the new microwave, but we ain't making popcorn here!

And this is for KVU, the post is the "patch demo" a few days back. The one about taking the MPH limiter and turning it into a RPM limiter in the 746 ecm. Very good stuff even if you don't have a 746 ecm as the "concept" (right Grumpy) is plain to see. Reading and changing code is complicated but I think it should be the ultimate goal for all of us here. Think of it, 10 years ago if you had a hot engine you had no choice but to go aftermarket ECM. Maybe 5 years ago you could probably have it tuned by some expert charging you hundreds of dollars or buy an aftermarket ECM. Today, you can tune whatever GM decided to put in the code as long as it is defined in the editor you have, for pennies of what you had to spend before and all made possible by a few guys that decided to share their knowledge. Tomorrow, you can have the GM ECM of your choice do pretty much anything you can think of, as long as it is electronically possible, and if you take the time to learn.

And if all you want to learn is how to set the fan turn on temp lower, well you can do that too with a quick search in the archives. You might even learn a couple other things while having to sift through the posts.

 

So then tell me what this board is for? If not everyone then just for the ELITE few correct? I don't understand computer language nor will I ever if I tried asking you ELITE for help in understanding it. Ya know what? Why even have this board? If everything has already been discussed before why are you all still posting? The info is all right here. Do a search for it

I don't ask for much, so when I do it means I am going out of my way to become the student. I do not like dealing with people like you, self centered, the type that are too high and mighty to be asked such simple questions...as if it insults you to be asked somthing so simple.

You don't think I have been reading through old posts? Jeez... Look at my registered date. Now understand that this account was lost when Dirk did some stuff to update the UBB software. I have been reading old posts in this forum for months already. Maybe the next time you want to feel so high and mighty you can go beat up a 5 year old or somthing.... It really gets to me when I ask for assistance and I am treated like the DUMBEST P.O.S on earth. I'll tell you what, you don't know what I know, but I am sure you'd be overjoyed if I showed you some of the things I do know. Ya know what? I'd be overjoyed if you showed me some of the things you knew too.

Still I don't understand why its such a battle to learn this. For someone like me, this should be so simple. It becomes hard when roadblocks and detours are encountered at every step though. Think about it.

 

Some people get a rise out of getting people riled up, right? So can we all just quit crying and get back to business at hand?

I don't guess anyone would complain if the moderators did a cleanup of rants which verge to flames.

Anyways, the topic was Bruce's frustration over lack of interest in a topic which was out-of-the-blue refreshing. Understandable, but let's move on.

 

and you wonder why its so difficult....

First in order TO understand what you are doing you have to learn what your doing. Disabling a flag or adjusting the injector constant for new injectors is/has been disussed dozens of times and has been explained even more. Changing the code demands, one, what variables you are changing and two, how/what it effects. Just jumping in and adding a patch arbitrally could be disasterous if done wrong. While the post mentioned above shows the basics, its just the surface of what is possible with source code. Personally I have close over a thousand pages I have printed out from simple wiring diagrams for ECM's to reference manuals on the 68hc11 processor. Do I understand all of it? no.. Am I learning? most definatly. Do I hope to make changes via code? yes. Will I get there? yes. When.. as soon as I understand it fully. and that takes time and practice and reading, rereading, and asking questions. well I've rambled enuf now, gotta get back to my papers. cheers, Bob

 

Well put Craig!

 

For a list to be successful requires balance.

You cant have alist of people just asking questions. Somone has to be willing to answer them, and research for new info..

If folks don't want to contribute, that's fine, just remember that if everyone takes that attitude the list would die instantly.

There are alot more guys prom burning then ever, and it's time (in my mind anyway), for folks to say, hey, I do owe the list a like something, and start contributing. Contributing can take a million forms, and it needs to start happening. Hitting reply and expressing an opinon isn't contibuting, and too often these opinions are exactly that. They have no basis in reality, so in fact are a detraction from the list.

then we have folks that just don't have the time. OK, well, then they will be the ones to suffer. If you don't have the time to really sort out what's going on, well, there is just no way, you'll have your car running it's best. Odd, but if time was at that much of a premium then, they wouldn't have the time to hit reply or tune their cars in the first place.

My car runs fine, I'm to the stage of startin to actually modify code, so it doesn't matter to me one way or the other what happens here, it's just I much rather see this list alive and well, then where I see it heading.

Remember, this thread started due to the lack of ANY response to a really good post.

 

Bruce,

I completely agree that we all must contribute to make this board grow! That's kind of like a prnciple that reflects in life! If you really want anything out of something, may it be work, school, marriage, children...etc.... You not only need to take from them, but more importantly, you need to give of your self! I am just learning the prom burning right now and admit that I have had more questions than answers, however, when i see a post that i can add something too, i do my best. I think I am in the same boat a many here and that is I am still learning. Almost there, but still learning. Posts such as the part throttle tunning on the 730 is a great article and once I read it, my knowlege grew leaps and bounds (Thanks TRAXION!) in addition to reading the help section on calibration in the TC program. Personally, I think we need more intro articles to send others to give them baby steps towards the search of the perfect chip. I will do my best to start researching before i start asking questons and better yet, Start answering questions that I can answer. Maybe put up some links to sites that are good to research for prom burning on the 165/730 ecm's.

All here see Grumpy, Glenn, Craig Moates, and Traxion as the leaders here and that they clearly know the most about chip burning:hail: Glenn has been some what of a mentor to me and has helped me out a lot!!!(TY GLENN!). What I have learned from him, i will hopefuly pass on to others! And I hope it does not stop there!

 

I agree with you that a little more newbie help would be a good thing (as I am at that status now) but no, it wouldn't take years to read them. Just set the board settings to "all posts" instead of the last 20 days, and start from the beginning. Copy & paste the good stuff w/ a URL and the text into a text file for your own use, and then you can go back to things. Granted, you won't know now what will be useful later, but you'll have a notion.

I don't know anywhere near what I need to know at this point, but if I come acrost something that I had to figure out, I'll try and document it on a web page. Big deal. Easy for me to do, no whining involved.

Sometimes the best learning I do is by lurking and letting other people ask the questions; and file the info away in my noggin for later use. Even though I may not at the moment be looking to change temp / EGR, I will need to know later. (as an example.

Back to starting from the beginning....

Matthew

 

RedIrocZ, Bravo for telling it like it is.


Ive been reading these prom burning boards since november or so of 1999 and even then people were referring to "the archives"
I saw that so much I was starting to believe that anything and everything that i thought of had been tried before and gone over in detail.
Well here I am 2 years later and have read "the archives" extensively. You want to know what? At best, half the things people refer you to "The Archives" for are one time mentions of some of your questions with no definitive answers. In fact, I spent approximately 30 hours on the computer last weekend reading "The Archives" and i found that many of the questions id seen posted here and many of the questions of my own were the same questions people that refer you to "The Archives" had themselves yet in their case there was no answer either.. Ive read the things till my eyes are bloodshot.

My hypothesis is that those people that refer people to "The Archives" have a different standard for what is played out so to speak. On the general tech board you see the ported maf sensor question asked weekly but people still answer it. Must have been asked a million times. Its old, we are tired of seeing it.
To those who refer you to "The Archives" its been mentioned maybe once. Perhaps twice at best.. with little clarification.

Its this elitist BS like "you have to pay your dues to the country club to get in" that keeps people away from this hobby

And I REALLY wish people would stop kissing certain peoples asses on this board as if they were ***. Give it up you arent gonna get inside info kids.. because it pretty much doesnt exist. If there is its probably worth squat to 99% of the people into cars that come around here anyways.

I would have otherwise ignored this if it werent for me wasting eons of my life reading "The Archives" only to come up largely empty handed.

BTW its always been like this.. you can read about it in... you guessed it. "The Archives" lol

 

You newbees need to stop stepping on advanced post.This had nothing to do with the basics.If you can't get help then keep kicking your post to the top.Someone will answer it just takes time.I got all the help I needed here.You also need a defined question.I have had words with some of the seniors on this board.But in the end I'm the *** because people like grumpy has dedicated so much time.Look at how many articles/post Bruce Pelcan has written.Then you newbees will start to figure **** out .The best you can hope for is to get a response from these guys,the worst is to **** them off,ya dig.Whatdoes any of this have to do with the original post?????

 

Could we PLEASE quit our fken crying? It's crap like this rambling post that kludges up the archives in the first place.

Is any of this complaining productive?

Move on, jeezus fken khrist!

Seeing as there is no technical content whatsoever within this post, maybe it could be locked or wholesale flushed. It's not only a waste of bandwith, but a future waste of time for those seeking content and they'll find this lump of gold instead, spend time reading it instead of moving on then.

Heck, I'm sitting here typing now. What a waste of time...

But hey, that's just my opinion...

 

What is that sticky post above say about "if you can't find your post"???? :lala: