Could someone give me some guidelines for the AE tuning. Which one should be messed with first, and what instances would you use each of them? I understand they are added together for the final AE calculations but I don't want to start with the wrong one.

 

Alot will depend on how fast you build boost.
If the boost follows the throttle really well, then you'll want to run mostly TPS AE.
Interestingly there is a RPM vs AE table in the 58 code.

I generally play with the TPS to get the low speed stuff close, then the AE for freeway speed driving, and then back down to low speed stuff to take out some of the TPS AE.

It always takes a fair amount of tweaking to get correct.

 

ok there are 4 tables. in order of importance

ae vs tps diff
ae vs map diff
ae vs rpm
ae vs coolant

ae vs tps is the first table i tune. i actuall zero out the map diufferential when doing this.

ae vs map is handy for loads change that incite boost or a shift. if you find that on a shift with an automatic equipped car you go lean look there.

ae vs rpm is handy if you find a bog or need to soften a hit on the tire between shifts or exiting entering a corner.

ae vs coolant the only time i work this table is when i have a bog etc when cold.

any questions ? ps this strategy works on my honda.

 

In the AE vs. TPS, the max delta TPS in Tunercat is 12.5% and in Promgrammer it is 25%. If you had a delta TPS of anything more than 25% is the value at 25% used the rest of the way?

Accel. Enrichment Vs. Differential TPS(Tunercat)

%TPS**********usec added
0**************305
3.125***********977
6.25************1160
9.375***********1160
12.5************1160

(Promgrammer)
0x0512 F22 AE - Delta Throttle Contrib vs (8 * Delta Throt.)

mSec | 00.00 06.25 12.50 18.75 25.00
---------------------------------------
(mSec)| 0.31 0.98 1.16 1.16 1.16

 

I also have 12.5% as the max delta TPS. Yes, last row used with delta TPS values > 12.5%.

RBob.

 

thats an are where map differential come in handy to pick up the slack.

 

I was thinking the MAP AE tables were more for like if you were wot and then kicked the transmission down a gear. I sometimes run into this because I am running a manual valve body where there is no kickdown. If I was full throttle in third and wanted to pull it to second there would be no more AE because the TPS AE is used up.

 

So is the MAP AE. . . If anything the MAP presssure would decrease with the downshift.

RBob.

 

i mentioned that in my first post in this thjread.

 

Sorry, I thought you were meaning an upshift but I guess it works both ways though.

 

If you lift there would be a TPS shot available when you hit the gas again. If you were like roadracing and kept your foot well into it, then there would be no TPS AE left.

Delta means change, so the larger the TPS or MAP change there is the larger the shot available. If your at 5K at WOT and crack out of the gas SLIGHTLY there will be little to no AE available from TPS or MAP AE, because there is only a min actual change.

Going from 1K to 4K in first gear presents a HUGE DELTA, and so your MAP AE is a serious item at that level. At 150 MPH to slightly lift and goose the gas gets you about no MAP AE.

The wetter the manifold the more important the AE is. Short runners none acoustic tuning takes more AE then long runners, and a small plenum.

Drivetrain Inertia plays a huge arsed role in things. And if an auto application the converter governs 2/3s of what you're doing, until you reach the stall speed of the converter.

This is really an area where a WB will pay for it's self just in gas saved. You can get the enginein to be crediblely responsive when the AE and Load fuel is balanced correctly.

 

So on the wideband would you want to see a little bit if richness at TPS or MAP changes or just see a smooth transition with no lean spots? How is the amount of AE determined (length of extra fuel added) and is it tapered off or just stopped altogether? I would like to know so I don't look back at a file and try to add or subtract fuel in the VE at a particular MAP/RPM value, whent the car is actually in AE. I thought I noticed that DirectScan for the TR's has a an AE display to let you know when it is in AE (maybe not)? I don't think Datamaster or any of the other scanning softwares I have used have this info.

 

It's not just about tip-in leaness, but how rich things go in AE.

SLOWLY increasing the TPS would give no AE, TPS or MAP since the delta is so low.

If your having troubles with the VE to AE relationship you can turn down the AE and the PE enable to work on the VE table some. Just remember no AE and the car WON'T acclerate other then very slowly.

Seeing the AE flag can be a good thing. If your using a WB you can see how the fuel blends to the higher VE, or PE fuel.

I had my virtual dash on this morning which allows for a large O2 display, and the stock O2 are just really worthless. I was seeing anything from 700mv to 850mv while the WB might be at 15:1 or 13:1.

 

Please Explain.

 

When your looking at the logs, it's nice to be able to track the AFRs, across the board so to speak.

Knowing what fuel your using when helps get the blend right.

One of the things about getting the fuel to blend from mode to mode, is that it gets rid of lean spots and regions for detonation to even think about starting. WOT is only part of WOT tuning, you have to get there with reasonable chamber temps., so as the load increases, the engine just builds power, rather then detonating.

 

Where is the AE Flag?

 

It varies by mask.

 

58 and 8D ?

 

your definately getting to into the detials now. just take the car to the track and work towards the best 60 ft and 330 ft times without engaging PE. IE set the pe engagae really high. also just do what feels good. a nice clean crisp accelration from a stop light. smooth revving. etc etc etc. its just a dammed accelerator pump like on a carberator. the MAP vs differential is basically a power valve. get a holley tunnign book and read up on those concepts.

Grumpy stop pulling this into the twilight zone for *** sakes your just tunnign for the best throttle response how Fing hard is that ?

 

Given your example in how to tune, you'll be using the AE in lieu of PE. That'll leave ya running around wondering why PE is so weird. AE is AE and PE is PE.

AE is to account for a temporary change in vac conditions, PE is for added fuel for in cylinder cooling. There is a distinct difference in how to use them properly. Long story made brief for the sake of bandwidth.

In response to YOUR guestion,
The is a difference between good enough, and correct. If you want to settle for close, that's fine, but that doesn't mean everyone does.

 

I agree. Right now I don't have any tip in hesitation or stumble that I can "feel" but if there is any room for improvement I would like to attempt it. They make different pump cam profiles, squirter sizes and, acc. pumps for a reason, I have had carbed, cars that felt good at launch and have ran even better with a little pump change. I would like to understand how the AE is tailored into the VE so to speak. When you wot a carb you are out of pump shot when the accelerator pump empties (depending on acc. pump setup). When does the AE pulse taper off? Is there a table for it? This is for 8D or 58.

 

Your making the assumption that there is a actual CORRECT AE setup. this is not true. AE can be used in alot of way im sure youve nevber used it. I use AE in sevral ways to provide good Throttle respone and to maximize traction and to keep the motor from leaning out during transient state throttle changes.

Your statement are both aggrivating and subjective. TR is not something that can be tunned in the way your talking about. knowing which parameters affect which conditions is helpful but the actual setup of the parameters is subjective and should be tunned to and individuals preferecne to work the best for there combo. You broad sweeping statments that yours is the onyl way to tune AE is both rediculous and annoying. Take it somewhere else. I gave factual tunning advice and a solid method for getting good results.

PE should engage while AE phases out.not before not durign but after it starts to phase out.in fact if both are well tunned the transistion should be invisiable in the WB data logs.

But then again what do i know LOL ?

 

Thank you, that is what I wanted to know. Now, could you tell me how AE is phased out? Is there a rate that AE is tapered out or is it just stopped after so many ms., or pulses, or what?

 

AE typically phases out every clock cycle a small amount. typically this can be adjusted but on the $58 i think its about 1-1.5 seconds depedning on the vairiance. if the map delta is still in differential then it wil stay in AE until the differential has been met. same goes for the tps.

 

Excuse me for ignoring your attitude, and we'll look at one item here.

On a foot stomp to WOT from say cruise at 70 MPH with a TPS of 14% to an enable of PE TPS of 20%, PE would be applied as instantly as the AE.

Your sweeping statement of tuning without PE is about the worst thing I could see recommending to someone having a tuning problem. It's alot safer to go too rich first, and back down from there, rather then risk too LEAN, as your recommendation might.

Never mind lean on a S/C engine.

 

i think you are overeading my post. i was supplying a way to tune the AE. i would not however stay out of PE for long periods. a second or so is fine. AE only acts for the very short term. the idea is the AE is an accelerator pump to deal with TRANSIENT THROTTLE AND LOAD CHANGES. PE is a WOT or heavy load fuel adder. this is the intent and this is the way im suggesting to treat it. the point your missing is that they should blend during the AE phase out and PE phase in. the reason youve noted tricky PE behavior is becuase youve most likely set it up wrong.

I have no issues with my turbo honda running $58 and i run about 20psi of boost on 89 pump gas.

 

Ugh, OK, I'll just quote exactly what you said,

--------------------------------------
your definately getting to into the detials now. just take the car to the track and work towards the best 60 ft and 330 ft times without engaging PE.
--------------------------------------

In one reply you say to NOT TO ENGAGE PE, and then when it's pointed out to you how wrong that is, then you reply back with A second or so.

And your quoting back to me, what I first said. Your the one that suggested WITHOUT USING PE. I was the one to state what the intended uses of AE and PE was, so please don't pitch that back as it was something you mentioned or discovered.

And even a sec. or so with a S/C engine, running lean, can generate ALOT of damage.

 

No risk of that here, I pretty much ignore ya...

 

Thanks for doing that Bruce (although somewhat uncharacteristically pacifist of you LOL). This is a great post- I don't have PE mode on my '808, and I've just bought a couple of '730's to do the $58 trick on.

Then you obviously know more about this than I do (that's not unusual), but I've been enjoying funstick's contribution, and even if he's not spot on, there are gems there at times, and the debate is worth following.

Can we have some more discussion on how the AE and/or PE decays please?

John

 

Not likely I know more about this than anyone, but funstick's signal:noise ratio has gotten pretty low. Really wish he'd let grumpy's corrections slide off easier...

 

Since this list has so many folks milking it for info., I'm drawing back some on how much I explain things. In the long run it's the best way to handle the situation in my opinion, but I'll give ya a freebie here.

It would be easy to do what someone else suggested, and you probably might get it to work, in a fashion. But, if you spend some time understanding the 58's original application, and look at the settings closely, you can see where one might go off on a tangent, and not get the PE CORRECT.

BTW, I've been running 58 code in my GN, and have some idea of how the AE, and PE interact.

 

the only way the PE mode would affect the car in teh 60ft arena would be if you left on the transbrake fully loaded. yeah on a second thought the 330ft mark is a bit far. i luanch my car from idle. i cant enjoy a full throttle luanch because if i did id break axles. i think i may have simpyl overlooked that in my thinking. but the point remains if you tune the car with the PE enables way out there youll get the AE right a whole lot faster. then you bring the PE in to clean up and take over when the AE phases out. the method your suggesting would require juggiling way to many variables to get a good fast easy to handle picture. to much time involved for the same results i think is what im getting at.

On a further foot note to be honest the method i use get me like 95% of the way to a good luach and the A/F ratio i need in 10-15 luanchs. step on it whatch the wideband back out. thats all you have to do. then bring the PE back in. youll find however that you wont need to command such low A/F ratios at low rpm as often becuase the motor accelerates out of those zones so fast that it never engages.


yet again my 2cents for a pratical solid method that works.

 

Your just not getting it.
Tell me one more variable that I'm juggling then you?.
None.
0
The number of attempts to get things acceptable is a function of tuning experience, and what one considers good enough.

A few posts ago you were about watching 60 foot times, and 330s, now it's about using the WB.

I'll close this reply with again mentioning that the AE is always a function of DELTA Load and DELTA TPS. Might look at the max %TPS Delta available on the 58.

Just in case anyone does venture a look, again look at the original application, ie the Syclone.

 

Are you intimidated by smart people or something ? this guy asked for asitance and the only thing you brought to this thread was conjucture and opinion. and when i posted other ways to obtian solid results yet again back to the conjecture and opinion. you never even defined which tables behave and when. this is the core of the question. i think hes smart enough to find his own effective tunning method.

Chill out.

as for the back tracking. i realized that i was thinking in a different manner then you. also as for the delta comments just use the rpm vs AE as a crude clamp it works fine for me. you dont normally need AE at 4000rpm due you ?

They dont interact. one come in the other goes out. the only reason for AE is becuase you need to add additional fuel due to port stalling. the vaporazation goes down when the incoming air flow stalls and there is no turbulent air to help both atomize and vaporize the fuel. but then thats not even worth discussing here.

 

With forced induction is port stalling an issue? Seems like with a centrifigal there isn't much time for air flow to slow down. Would this call for more AE?

 

port stalling is an issue anytime you open the throttle and velocity goes down before it come back up. this is what AE is for. also its there to keep the engine in a happy place as far as A/F ratio go during Acceleration when your not in PE mode.

 

Talk about a meaningless rant.
Have a Nice Day.

And yes, I need AE at 4K.
4K is just above the stall speed of the converter, and is very active and necessary item at that speed. Never mind when actually launching from a stand still with some boost. Oh wait, you said you can't do that because of the limited torque capacity of your axles. Your words, not mine.

 

i have yet to see you contribute anything useful for this gentlemen to use.

also i wonder if your using pe to mask poor ae tunning ?. not many street driven cars have 4000rpm stall converters and i was using that as an example.