So it works. I see data, but have no idea what i should be looking for.

Also i noticed it saves the logs as .txt. How can i convert these to actual tables?

Does anyone know if can use the 25 to 9 pin adapter?

As far as the problem with the Mule, should i just drive around and make the problem occur then save the log file for examination at home?

I'm really excited that have this new tool, show me the direction to understand it. So far searching on past posts has brought nothing.

 

confused about the log. the first two lines show alot of raw data. Which set of values is actually the raw data? line 2 has sensors, nothing lines up the way it should. of course i know which is rpm but nothing else makes sense

 

can i email or post my log to someone or just here? or is there an easy way to put it in excel for easier reading?

 

ask specific questions about what you see.

locate BLM and click on it. it is commonly used to determine state of tune of the underlying VE tables. you should see rpm / map populate after there are sufficient idle drive time in a specific cell. let it idle in driveway. the idle cell or cells should be first to populate. if it reads under 128 that is a rich condition that the ECU will or try to compensate for. over 128 lean. If you drive around a while other cells will populate as well. a short drive of 10 minutes may hit 15 or so cells for BLM. maybe you will see a trend rich or lean.

i believe you can look at win ALDL outside of it being hooked up to car. browse around and post some specific Q's.

 

Specific Q number one
Why is the log not complete? only values after promid(which means what) are some random 0's and1's.

Should i log everything or just raw data and sensor data? Also, i assume i should save that blm map. ANy thing else?

Will be back in 30 with more info.

 

something is interrupting the log session.

possible loose connection? could be the laptop? sorry not sure. i assume the green light at top is working? you should be able to log dam near indefinately. i typically log 25 minutes. travel time to office.

i have a 7747 ecu so eprom id is 2732. did you establish the configeration? see com ports. they must align. and chose the correct ecu. 0's and 1's ? that i dont understand.

anyone out there ?

 

okay i'm going to attempt to write the blm table

800/30=118.7 800/60=121
1200/20=108.4 1200/30=117.3 1200/40=108 1200/50=113 1200/70=152.2 1200/80=171
1600/20=108 1600/30=115 1600/40=119.5 1600/50=123 1600/60=148 1600/70=147.9 1600/80=164.6 1600/90=165
2000/30=133 2000/40=120.5 2000/50=123.8 2000/60=156 2000/70=168.6 2000/80=161
2400/30=120 2400/60=152
2800/30=124

To me this looks rich until i hit the throttle to accelerate, then it majorly leans out. So i should next look at the log file and determine where are the other sensors reading when it does it change from lean to rich?

 

yes i save BLM map or print it and dump.

i believe all is logged. no option that i am aware of. raw data flows acrross screen btw. usefull to me to see iac #'s moving up down with idle speed and blm's.

 

BLM are outside of accelleration. they are steady state(cruise) to best of my knowledge. so is you see a blm of 165 that is max lean. you are coming along well. you will populate the rpm/map areas that car runs in most often. best log is level road easy on throttle or use cruise.

 

in the log file, which is the IAC?

looking at the file, there are some crazy jumps. i line has all zeroes then all of a suden a 126 then back to 0. another goes 90, 84, 76, 71, 67, then boom, 1775. after that it goes to 34, 124, and jumps around the teens.

need to figure what these values represent. Does anybody know the order form left to right?

 

raw data flows accross screen. rpm.iac.blm.02.int. each bit of info is point in time. your #'s are not typical. i think there is also sample data chart. i forget. i think those #'s update every secor so.. we need someone to fiqure out why yours is tempermental. your blm chart is typical of a sad VE tune.

 

Just high light the whole log file in word pad, copy it and then past it into excell. The headings will then all line up with the data. The headings are too long in the word pad file, so they don't line up with the data anymore. You can also save the BLM table and copy it to excell in the same manor.

 

in raw data IAC is just that labeled IAC. shows steps of IAC. seems your BLM data is working. i use wide average. pay attention to the BLM cells that show multiple hits(samples). like over 10 samples. 2-3 may be discounted. unless every time you log you see a trend with few samples taken. some cells are hard to get samples.

 

right on. the chart is off kilter. it can throw you off. especially if you are drinking a brew while you tune. like 20 map is over 30 row. rpm is OK. this is BLM chart.

 

figured outhe excel thing. Much easier to understand now.

Ronny, how should i be comparing the IAC and BLM's? DO the Iac numbers represent pulses? If so the higher the number, then the longer it stays open.

I'm also looking at my knock count, which is a constant thing in my motor, and is always at least 25. Does that seem high?

Is the map and tps reading a %?

While i was driving and logging, the condition i keep complaining about was happening the whole time, except while at idle. I need to find a baseline for all the values. i know where the blm should be. what about voltage? while it is bogging down it only reads 12.7.

 

iac is steps. 0 is full closed...100 is full open. at idle mine is set to 0. some people set to like 3-5.

tps is %

i believe map is % 100 map is WOT. i idle at 50 map.

dont know of voltage. prob 12.7 is normal ??? i think that is battery voltage??? 02 volts is way different.

i would set the BPW in bin and then correct the blms that are out of wack. might even log again tomorrow to see if cells are the same .

 

awesome info guys. i already see where i'm off now. unfortunately i really only can adjust fuel pressure, timing and the detent cable. I'm not capable of burning chips yet. i do not think i should have to burn a chip with just my simple mods. tuning should solve my problems.

The knock is of concern right now. the table shows up to 5 knocks in two differnt places. 1 in quite a few others. When the computer detects knock, it retards the timing, correct?

that table i posted earlier is crazy how jumps from condition to another. Where should i begin to balance that guy out?

 

knock. could be mechanical noise like start up or pipes banging or real knock. i found mine day one at about 3600 50 map only. pulled 2 deg only there never reappeared. on 92 octane. went to 89 oct and never reappeared. you could pull timing at dist everywhere 2 deg? stock is 0 i believe.

now the blms are all over the place. log 2 more times and see if it repeats. if those blms are real only fix is burn a chip. or log a bunch and work with a for "fee" burner. adjust FP wont help. all that does is enrichen everywhere or lean everywhere. you most likely know that. my first log was lean everywhere.

 

how much will the computer pull if it detects knock? Based on searching it sounds like everyone is getting a little bit of knock.

Do you think i caould just remove the connector and go for a spin to see what happens. if the computer does not detect the sensor will it still pull from the timing or are there no prset values for knock?

 

only reason to remove sensor is if you are running a timing gear. it is said it is your friend. not sure how much it pulls but i guess 4 deg then it checks again if still there 4 more and so on. knock count on start up is common. no big deal there as mechanical noise.

 

Thats what i think too.

Check this out. I just went thru my first tank of gas. 15 gallons for 135 miles. Thats no good. I get ever indication of lean running thru the motor and winaldl.

Now, i also get a rich gas smell thru the very short, and freeflowing exhaust. Which makes me assume the o2 sensor is not picking up this unspent fuel because it is not fully combusted.

Why is unspent fuel going thru the engine? The mechanics of the motor are good. the computer is giving me the apropriate info relative to what is happening. My timing and fuel pressure are were everyone else for my mostly stock setup.

Everybody is doing what there supposed to be doing based on all the current info. i get a condition of lean, which is a ton of air, but no combustion of the extra fuel being dumped by the injectors at the end.

Timing components have been checked several times.

Why is there a lean condition, rich of unspent fuel? Its because the timing, is not keeping up with the amount of fuel being injected. Really, the computer can't keep amount of air being brought in.

I need to control the airflow thru the intake and back thrru the exhaust. I'm using an open element with the stock spacer to clear the coil. the motor is sucking the hell out of that setup as indicated by the lean condition under the load the map sensor is registering. Which is accurate for the conditions occuring. the exhaust is letting that motor suck every ounce of air with no resistance. The motor needs back pressure to push back on the load. he is getting alot of air, compensated by extra fuel, but no capabilitie to combust the high amounts of both.

I think we need to put on a h-pipe and two tailpipes coming out the back. Still freeflowing, but offering postive, even pressure to both sides of the motor while better regulating the volume of air coming in. Which then would adjust the Air/fuel volume into a lower range where complete combustion could occur.

Or maybe the computer could be just pulling back at least 20 degrees all the time because of knock. Which shouldn't happen because I have logged runs with and without knock occuring with no difference or change.

Personally i'm leaning towards the exhaust regulating the Volume of air inside the motor. What do you guys think?

 

First of all, your not getting enough knock to matter at all. You have to get more than 2-4 knocks within a certain time period to even retard timing. I get a 1 or 2 counts every time I snap in and out of the gas, probably drivetrain noise. If you were getting real knock you would have 20 or more counts in a particular cell on the graph. On the "scrolling data" screen, it just keeps track of total number of knocks. So your only getting knock when this increases.

Your over thinking this airflow thing. Sure the lack of exhaust and the open element are letting more air through th engine. Your ecm is showing lean so it's compensating.....what are your BLM's and are they even across the board, or are they all over the place. If your running without a cat and basically without an exhaust your gonna smell some fumes. Also keep in mind that if your ECM is maxed out and can't add any more fuel,around 145 BLM, then you could actually be lean, which will also produce a smell. Pull the plugs and see what they look like. If it's a missfire problem they'll be black. If all is well, but you just need to tune on it, then they'll be nice and clean. If they are stark white and kinda crusty lookin your lean.

 

you need to look at those BLM's that you have the most hits on. winALDL will show you how many samples each cell has. the one you are cruising in or idling in will have the most hits and the others very little. those cells may be most important to you.

i believe it was said a bad coolant temp sensor will show poor gas mileage. but i would expect that will show a code. does winALDL show any error codes? i assume you are not getting a CE light? and i assume you have a CE light hooked up.

 

I'm right with you guys. My Blm's when i hit the gas go from normal to 145- 160. At idle or below 1500 rpm it is pretty much pegged at 128.

The cts is cool. it runs at 181 degrees all the time. My gauge confirms this and WInaldl does too.

Plugs and o2 sensor say lean. Which leads to believe i do not get enough fuel for the volume of air causing the lean condition. Which is strange based on the high quantity of fuel i have used so far.

Still leaning towards the exhaust.

 

ok.....you have a major fueling issue. You will get horrible gas millage with an overly lean condition. You just have to push the motor that much harder to get around, so thats why your milage goes out the window. Your exhaust mods do not warrant such a huge change in fueling. Your 128 BLM at idle is because your dropping out of closed loop.

I'm guesing either your O2 sensor is out to lunch or probably more likely your fuel pump is on it's way out. Does your O2 swap back and forth while cruising? If it's slugish that could pointo to a bad O2.

 

ok back up a minute........what ecm, chip are you using and on what motor? What kind of mods have you done?

 

Q: My Blm's when i hit the gas go from normal to 145- 160.

Monte: would that be due to moving accross VE table from say 2000 rpms/50 may to 2000 rpms 90 map. if that new cell is lean that would explain the new lean BLM. however when AE invokes you go open loop so VE/BLM no longer play a factor cept for some residual overlap B4 OL is involked. as Grump suggested i do is look an intergrator whe i involk AE as my large AE TPS values could skew my BLMs to go lean. there are relationships here.

as Monte stated you need to post the entire specs on the engine and vehicle it is in i saw jeep i think. OBTY customefis.com specializes in GM efi TBI for Jeep using salvage components. their tune setup manual is very good.

 

7747 ECM on a LO5. Motor is bored .030 and has a crane compucam. I 've been on the phone with Crane to find out which one. It has been so long since i installed it that i'm not sure which one it is. Afraid i'm going to have to pull the timing chain to find out.

Exhaust is a pair of hedman shorties going back to two 40 series flows with very short dumps.

Ultimate mods on the throttle body with open element.

Everthing else is stock

 

do you have a CE light? did you set BPW in chip? if not do you know what it is (100-135)? what platform is chip out of? is it a stock GM bin? i assumne 13 lbs FP? what injectors(part #)?

 

What motor was the ecm originally on? You've changed just about everything on that motor. Your tune is just way way off. If the ecm was orignally on a 305 this situation would be magnified.

Ronny your completely right about transient fueling, but I highly doubt that mylittlemule is talking in the same "chip" tense as we are. I ASSumed he was talking about any where he was "in the gas" his BLM's were in the 145-160 range.

Where are your BLM's while cruising at steady state throttle? Like Ronny said while your opening and closing the throttle your in AE which means your BLM's aren't doing aything. We just want an
overall idea of whether your lean or not at steady state running.

My guess is that your just in dire need of a tune. You might be able to crutch it for now by cranking up the fuel pressure, but that will be just that ....a crutch.

 

Everything is off a 350 suburban. Just grabbed a new computer the other day of an 89 350 for twenty bucks.

My BLM's are high under throttle and just holding where they are. Its actually hard to cruise up above 1500 cause it is starving itself for gas. When i back off the pedal, it smooths out, but will never go above 1500. In park/nuetral, the BLMS stay right around 128.

i know i need the tune, thats what i'm trying to accomplish. My motor mods should be tuneable. cranking up the fuel pressure does not help. That is probably where my all my fuel was wasted. Maxing the timing at 16 degrees only threw a ICM code. its back at 8 degrees now. my FP gauge broke yesterday. I have the tab set right in the middle now for reference.

The TPS reads -.07 at idle. goes thru the rest of the range smoothly. th ecomputer does not go into open loop until i get to full throttle, which i have never done.

steady cruising gives high blm's. in park and under 1500 while cruising, the blm's are normal. just under load i have an issue.

th etech guy at crane says i have a 2030 compucam. i think it is a 2010. he says i would have to retard the cam to make any of the others to even work. Crane says if i have the correct cam for my application, i should only have to put the timing at 0 based on my problem.

I'm going for the cam specs to make sure they ar right

 

Dont know what theyre saying about retarding the cam. Set it to whatever is recommended for every other SBC and run with that. Id start with around 6 deg of base time and take it from there. Youll need to set the base time in the prom to 6 deg so your SA doesnt change.

 

what year suburban?

 

i found my cam specs on here from an old post. its funny, while i was searching thru my old posts, i was having the same problem several years ago. i obviously never solved the problem.

I do talk about the mods i made at that time. my problem starts at the time of lopping off the tailpipes, adding the painless harness, and performing the ultimate mods.

Just got off the phone with crane. they say i need to advence my cam on the timing chain to offset the computer from retarding the timing. They told me to perform a compression check first to decide whether or not i should advence the cam.

To them and me, the computer is working normally.

 

short of a fuel delivery problem, I think it's safe to say that you just need to dive into chip tuning and start feeding this thing fuel.

EDIT:

Crane is on crack.....don't wast your time with them anymore. Retarding the cam to compensate for timing is just.....retarded

 

90 suburban Ronny.

And to clarify, i'm not burning a new chip. I don't know why the thread was moved here. i'm just tuning.

 

ohh thats the problem right there......with TBI or any fuel injection the ONLY way to tune them is in the chip. Start looking for a carb, cause thats the only way your gonna be happy if you don't start burning chips.

 

why should i have to burn a chip with these simple mods. the only crazy mod i have is the cam and it is so close to stock specs . everybody, including crane, thinks i should be bigger, which would then REQUIRE chip burning. i know this and didn't put in a bigger cam for that reason.

 

Cams drastically alter how a speed density system run. Some guys can't even get away with a lt-1 cam without needing tuning to fix problems. Which cam do you have? is it the 2030? What are the duration specs? Keep in mind that you have a cam, and full free flowing exhaust your going to need alot more fuel than stock.

You should see your BLM's drop when you increase fuel pressure, if not your either out of fuel pump, or out of injector. Other than increasing fuel pressure there isn't much you can do other than make sure all the sensors are working.

 

Speed density is extremly sensitive to mods. I put a set of vortecs on my engine and tried to start it with my previous SD calibration so i could have the carb hat off to set/verify the fuel pressure. About all it did would do is surge up and down a couple of times and stall out.

 

maybe you dont. but you do to get the vehicle running the best it can. i dont accept anythoing i can improve upon. yes there is an investment is some equiptment. another option is hire a "burn for fee" and pay that and maybe the car runs OK.

another possibility is there is something mechanical/sensor related.

do you have a FP gauge hooked up? best to verify under a load it can hold 12 lbs.

do you have a CE light? can you recover any stored error codes?

are injectors spraying in neutral when you gas it?

 

crane has been alot of helped. They made do a compression schek on all cylinders.

From check that my valves are improperly adjusted. Two show up over 180 on a compression test. the rest show from110 to 160. those are the ones not adjusted properly. I was told if the test showed 180, that is were the rest should be. so that leads me to advancing the cam on the timing chain according to there recommendations to bring the compression back to 160.

advancing the cam will bring the powerband of the cam lower so the spark can keep up according to crane. Which makes sense. And of course having equal compression throughout the cylinders will be helpful.

the front comes off now to verify and change if necessary.

To answer your questions Ronny, i have everything you mentioned, and it all works. Except the FP gauge. Before i broke it though, it showed it was holding FP with no problems under load.

Also yes the motor screams like it should in nuetral and park.

 

I'm sorry....advancing the cam to make the power band fit the timing curve is just assbackwards in my book. You should be making the timing curve fit the powerband. This still won't just magically add the fuel you need to get the thing to run. Keep in mind that running your engine lean at WOT is a good way to toast a few pistons.

 

i ran a 210/216 crane 2040 and it was installed straight up per Crane recommendations. 2030 is relatively mild. but significantly more aggressive than a stock GM truck cam.

as Monte suggested the cam is not your problem.

you certainly want to adjust the valve lash.

 

I too wouldnt consider touching the cam timing. Leave it at whatever was typically recommended.

 

yea that would certainly confuse things.

 

i've been on it all day. it started raining just as i was going to start readjusting the valves. we will see in the morning what the outcome will be.

Tom from Crane has me pretty convinced this is the problem. I explained all of my symptons and the modifications i have performed and his personal expireance with my cam says it needs to be advanced. I have to listen to him because the motor has never run great.

While searching earlier today, i found my old posts relating to this same problem. i have been talking about these same problems for several years with no luck in solving problem. unfortunately, i just play with the mule every once in a while. Hence the reason it has never been solved. Now we have to get up and running so i can use it for a new job out of the country. In fact it is delaying me from leaving.

I have covered every aspect to a possible resolution over the last few years. I have never though looked at the internals for a solution. When i finally did today, i found that the drivers side bank had less compression than the other because my valves were not adjusted properly. Something that i have never been that confident about anyway when i performed the adjustment. I also found that i was at 180 on the other bank. which he stated is to much and that advancing the cam will bring that down to 160, which is more acceptable for my motor combo.

I'm just putting the cam were crane has recommended. WHich was told to me during the buildup in the first place. Generic instructions.

 

Is that a factory 355ci in an 87 Wrangler??

If not, then you need to burn a chip regardless of a cam change. I think the other posts are correct in saying that the cam is not your problem.

Is the small amount of knock that you saw happen all of the time? or is it just a marginal load of gas. One reading of the ALDL doesn't mean much. Gather more data and then make the decision. You will then realize that there is no need to twist the cam.

 

its been a few days since my last post. i had to take a much needed break from the Mule.

So here we are. I finally took everybodies advice and had a chip burned. Before i did that i spent some time with Crane on the phone and they put the right cam in the mule for me. Powermax 2030, not to crazy, just 10% more horses over stock. Then i went to TBIchips.com and ordered a chip by phone. I told him every spec on the mule and he calibrated a chip accordingly.

CHip came in today, i reset the timing to 0, then put the FP in the middle at 15.5( the range is only 14-17 on the new pump). And SHABAM!!!! NOTHING!! Not a single change in driveability. Even got the same lean CE light.

Oh well, the laptop is on the way. i'll do some logging and see where it takes me. I'm going back thru all my Vacuum hoses and sensors for the umpteenth billion time to hopefully find a problem.

 

Winaldl is not telling me much. i see where it goes lean, i just don't understand why. The blm's go up and down with rpm. Which has just given me an idea. At idle in park i get a rich flag. it stays on until i get going, then she leans out while the get going is happening, could the computer be setting the base ipw or ipt based on the idle value and not while it is leaning out?

my blm's are at 110 at idle and up to 1000 rpm's. if i get this to 128, will that change my blm's at 1500 when it reads 172?e other thing that happened on my logging run was the code 42 that appeared. i have the timing set at 0 for the chip. any reason i would be getting this code and my current lean problem?