bigchief

ill get straight to the point, i'm running a 1989 firebird formula 350, with 305 TPI heads, and a stock TPI.
i bought everything off moates.net to datalog, and burn chips for my car.

i'm using TunerProRT, and Flash&Burn

where do i start? i did like a couple minutes of dataloging today, and i was pretty amazed as to how much information you can get from the computer. basically i just want to know, what to look at specifically, and to know how to make my car run better. if anyone is farmiliar with the programs i'm using, please enlighten me. thanks a lot, i'll be asking more questions as i go along. thanks again everyone!

Mangus

You have everything you need as far as software and hardware. The 6E.xdf file that comes with TunerPro is the proper file to edit your bin, and as you've discovered the 1227165_6E.ads file is the proper file to datalog and monitor your ECM.

The project of making your car run better by tuning is going take you some time, patience, and reading.

The first thing to do is log your car while you drive it around in various conditions. Look at the BLMs in the log. Are they high (above 128 means the car is running lean at that point) or low (below 128 means the car is running rich at that point)? Tweak the fuel tables (MAF tables) at the appropriate points to keep the BLMs as close to 128 as possible (use the MAF output in the log to tell you where in the tables to adjust).

Do you hear knock or see your knock counts increasing? Pull spark from the Spark Advance Table at those RPMs and Load values to keep alleviate knock issues.

And so on...

There's a lot to it. Read the stickies up top. Think of questions that you might have and use the search feature on key words based on those questions. You're sure to find at least some guidance.

Most of all, be patient! Take your time. Ask questions when you're totally stuck.

Good luck!

M

bigchief

Thanks a lot man, i really appreciate that reply.

i see that when i look at the ALDL flags page, under RICH/LEAN, it keeps switching back and forth when i play something i have recorded. also, i just opened the car up through 1'st, and 2'nd (700-R4) and it held RICH through all of it...... however my plugs are pretty darn white..... any ideas?? thanks again!!

JohnL

1) Look up some info on how a standard NB O2S works and you'll see it's just like a rich/lean toggle. If you search here on "cross counts" you'll get some discussion about how the ECM keeps richening and leaning the mixture to keep track of where the correct fuelling level is. Do some reading on BLM and INT as well. This sort of thing happens under cruise conditions when BLMs are not locked.

2) Under WOT conditions you go into Power Enrichment (PE) mode - target AFRs around 12.5 in SD tunes. Also, you have a "pump shot" transient fuelling mode that will drive you to rich when you accelerate.

John

bigchief

Ok, im a little scared about my engine knocking, the following data is taken with TunerPro paused while my car is at WOT. PLEASE let me know what you guys think. thank you so much!

ALDL DASH:
Load Variable (LV8) = 165
Coolant Temp = 190.85
Throttle Position = 4.55
Block Learn (BLM) = 128
Engine Speed = 5225
Mass Air Flow (MAF) = 182.19

ALDL VALUES:
Prom ID = 1023
Startup Coolant Temp = 41.00
Manifold Air Temperature (MAT) = 82.25
Battery Voltage = 13.60
Voltage At Fuel Pump = 13.50
Vehicle Speed = 43
NV ratio = 121
MAF Raw Input = 168
Engine Running Time = 1081

Target AFR = 12.37
Oxygen Sensor = 950.16
O2 Cross Counts = 181
Integrator (INT) = 128
Injector Base Pulse Width = 7.08

Desired Idle Speed = 575
IAC Motor Position = 136

Spark Adv Rel. to TDC = 36.56
Spark Adv Rel. to Ref Pulse = 29.18
Knock Count = 13
Knock Retard = 0.80
Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) = 1.78
EGR Duty Cycle = 0
Charcoal Canister Duty Cycle = 39.84
Cooling Fan Duty Cycle = 101.59

if you guys need any other info, PLEASE let me know, also im not sure if those numbers are good or bad, plz let me know that too if you can. thanks so much everyone

bigchief

cmon guys, i just want some feedback.... or someone please let me send them one of my saved files so you can look it over???? thanks for anyone that can help!

b_the_j

that seems to be on the safe side to me, take a look at how much advance is being pulled back from the ECM, I dont feel like munchin any exact numbers here its a little late. but at that rpm 13 on the knock count seems really low to me, if the ecm detects detenation it will retard something lke 14d then start going forward in small increments, dont worry about running your engine into knocking while tuning you need to go there so you will know the point you are trying to barely not get to, the ecm should not let it get anywhere close to damaging the engine, (if you are using the proper knock sensor)

bigchief

yes, all the parts in the car are correct i was just concerned about having a KNOCK count at ALL..... it just seemed a little scary too me. also the fact that the computer is actually RETARDING the timing a certain amount of degrees, only at the point that i am at WOT. i played a little with the timing today. i raised it from 6 degrees to 15, and sure enough according to TunerProRT, the engine was knocking more, and the computer was retarding it more as well. instead of only 2-3 degrees, it was up to 5-6 at WOT. after i let off, it went back down to 0 though.

b_the_j

the best thing i could tell you is get it on a dyno with an ignition scope and make sure that all of the firing voltages are the same. if you have one cylinder with a bad injecter that doesnt deliver enough fuel it would be detonating under load. if all your cylinders were detonating at that rpm,then your knock count would be extremely higher, also don't rule out a mechanical noise i.e. slack timing chain

bigchief

yeah, thats another thing..... i know that certain noises can throw off the knock sensor :-/ arg.... i just wish i knew what was going on in there haha.... so that ignition thing is the only test i could do to make sure everything is ok?

bigchief

as far as knocking goes, how much is too much according to TunerProRT??

also, if the BLM is higher than 128, it means that the car is running rich? so then i need to make it inject less fuel at that time correct? and the opposite if it is below 128?

Mangus

Any knocking is bad, really. But sometimes reported knock isn't really knock. Try pulling some spark at or slightly before the problem areas and see if the knock goes away. If, after pulling a reasonable amount of spark, the knock still exists, consider checking into rattles, etc, that might report falsely as knock. I'll let some of the other guys confuse you further there...

You have the BLMs backwards. High BLM means the car is lean and the ECM is correcting by adding fuel. Low BLM means the car is rich and the ECM is correcting by removing fuel.

bigchief

i was running the car with initial timing advance set to 15 degrees, the way i set it was i connected the A and B terminals under the steering wheel dash, and then tuned the distributer, and checked the timing with a timing light. (the reason i did this is because if i dont connect the A and B terminals, when i rev the car, the timing changes, when the A and B terminals are connected, the timing stays the same no matter what RPM the car is at) Is this the correct, and only way to change timing on my car? i know all im changing by doing this is the INITIAL advance.

When the car was at 15 degrees, it ran great, but my dad retarted the timing down to 5 degrees when he did the emissions on it, before realizing the reason it wasnt passing, was b/c he had the car in overdrive, when he put it in 3rd gear, the car passed with flying colors (car reving higher = more fuel/fumes burned)

when i got the car back, i started messing around with TunerProRT, and at 5 degrees, the car was reporting knocking at WOT, it was about 5-10 knocks from 0-70 mph.

seeing this, i advanced the timing up to 15 degrees like i used to have it, to make sure that the engine would knock more, since the advance was higher. It seemed to pull back more timing degrees, (6 degrees instead of 3 degrees maximum) while at WOT, but the knock counts seemed to be around the same range.

after i saw that, i retarted the timing back down to 4 degrees, where the engine was bogging a little, and running worse, and according to TunerProRT, still knocking, but pulling back about 3 degrees maximum again at WOT.

After all of these tests, i've come to the conclusion that my problem is most likely not the engine knocking, because i dont hear anything, and if it was actually knocking, at WOT i'd be getting way more than just 5-10 knocks from 0-70 mph. instead i'd be getting close to 30 or 40 (this is what i was told by Craig Moates).

Now the initial timing is set to 10 degrees, the car doesnt bog, and i took a reading on the ride to school today, but i havent taken a look at the knock counts yet, i will report back tonight with the details.

anyone that has any input on this situation, PLEASE speak up, thank you very much!

bigchief

cmonnnnn someone read my silly big article lol i need helpppp

JohnL

Sorry to be blunt, but what do you need to know that Mangus hasn't told you? This board doesn't tend to work like other "stream of consciousness crap-O-grams" - when people here can see that you have been given enough info to do something if you're willing to do the hard yards, there will be less response, and few "crap-O-grams".

And you've had advice from Mangus who has politely told you that you don't understand BLMs (ie the basics) and said, "There's a lot to it. Read the stickies up top. Think of questions that you might have and use the search feature on key words based on those questions. You're sure to find at least some guidance. Most of all, be patient! Take your time. Ask questions when you're totally stuck.

You're not "totally stuck" yet if you work on the false knock stuff and ensure the tune is right. Find some posts on checking AFRs and reading plugs, then narrow your questions down instead of writing a "silly big article". It's not hard to do 50 burns to get close to right (or still be wrong ) so make some changes and narrow your questions down a bit more than "datalogging/burning".

John

bigchief

haha, yeah i know im sorry. everythings all just new to me, and i really want to make sure im not ruining my brand new engine. ill try to be a lot more specific with my questions. heres one that anyone would know if they have experience with TunerProRT:

getting 30-50 knock counts in the course or about 20 miles, is this normal? or is it something to worry about.

also, getting about 3-10 knock counts while at WOT, is this normal, or smoethign to worry about?