I am going to add a section entitled Newbie Questions to the PROM article. So far I have the following:

1)Which Editor should I use? What are the Pros/Cons of each?
2)Where do I get the calibration files?
3)My BIN won't load into the program or the PROM data appears wrong. What is the problem?

Any other questions you would like to see in there?

Tim

------------------

• Program your own PROMs!. Read my article to get started!
• Research and Experiment before asking questions.
• This is not a chip store. Go to the classifieds if you want someone to sell you a chip or give you a BIN.

TRAXION's 1990 IROC-Z
Best Time = 12.244 @ 112.51mph (1.778 60' / 7.819@88.32mph in the 1/8)
All Natural. No Force. No Drugs. Stock Bottom End. Stock Body Panels.
Gunning for NA 11's with bigger cam, bigger stall, and bigger exhaust.
-=ICON Motorsports=-
Moderator: PROM board at thirdgen.org

 

Where do I find a bin for my car to play with ?

Where can I find .ecu files for WinBin ?



------------------
92 Z28 L98 350
---------------
Ported stock heads, XR270HR-10 cam, TES headers, Crane AFPR, Flowmaster catback, MSD ignition components, #24 SVO injectors.
Best ET 13.3@107 mph
"Take that auto, drop it in first, hold the brakes, stomp the gas and grin from ear to ear! :-)
Click here to see my car at Truspeed.org

Check out TruSpeed at http://www.truspeed.org
Check out the Bin Archive at http://www.truspeed.org/bins.html

 

-Pro/cons various scanners/scanning software
regarding cost and MAF/SD differences.

Thanx.

 

I have a suggestion, (not so much for newbies...though I hope they make some suggestions of their own, as they always ask them).

But is there ANY WAY we can have a link added to the main page of the PROM Board to your article? Just like we have "Want to register?", how about "Want to learn how to burn an eprom?".

If not, I think I will do as you do, and add the link to my signature too.

Some common FAQs would also be nice:

1) Where can I get the XX.TDF for TunerCat(answer: TunerCat)

2) Why can't I read my eprom with the demo version of TunerCat (answer: You either need the 747 ecm BIN or need to get the appropriate TDF from TunerCat ...see question 1).

3) I can't seem to get TunerCat to load? (answer: Have you unzipped the file? If not look at question 1 and 2).

4) How hard is it to burn an eprom? (Answer: The actual buring process is very easy and can be learnt in less than a few hours. Modifying the BIN and making good changes, takes time, patience, testing, and analysis. But it will come with time and patience.

I was also thinking a good explanation of the various readings you would see with a scan tool could be very useful. Especially, the BLM/INT as these are key indicators in determining the changes necessary to your BIN.

Lastly, an article on using TDF Editor and how this can assist you greatly in adding a constant or table to a TDF that TunerCat may not already have. I just got this and I think anyone REALLY serious about eprom burning should add this to their "tool kit" if they plan to use TunerCat.

 

From Blade.....
Already have this one in there

Already have this one in there but in a broader sense ... Where do I get the Definition files.

From Rookie.....
Then I have to ask the question as to WHAT scanners/scanning software should be evaluated. There are MANY. Also, I wouldn't be able to do justice to everyone's scanning software since I have not used them all. This topic is huge. I would actually recommend that this be an article in and of itself. You could have pages on just this topic.

From Glenn.....
I'll check with Dirk.

Already have this one in there

Already have this one in there too

Well - to be honest ... If someone can't figure out how to unzip a file then, IMHO, they probably shouldn't be trying to program their own PROMs. Sorry. I know that what I just said is kinda harsh. But, IMHO, its true. If you can't unzip a file successfully then ... geez ... how the heck are you going to do everything else?

Basically - add the TIME element to the equation. I already give the process and explain how easy it is but I should also indicate the time aspect and emphasize it.

Well ... I'll disagree on this one - for a couple of reasons. #1 is that this article is mainly just for getting started. This type of information should go into a separate article. #2 is that this information is available via the links in the article.

Again - a more advanced topic.

Tim


------------------

• Program your own PROMs!. Read my article to get started!
• Research and Experiment before asking questions.
• This is not a chip store. Go to the classifieds if you want someone to sell you a chip or give you a BIN.

TRAXION's 1990 IROC-Z
Best Time = 12.244 @ 112.51mph (1.778 60' / 7.819@88.32mph in the 1/8)
All Natural. No Force. No Drugs. Stock Bottom End. Stock Body Panels.
Gunning for NA 11's with bigger cam, bigger stall, and bigger exhaust.
-=ICON Motorsports=-
Moderator: PROM board at thirdgen.org

[This message has been edited by TRAXION (edited January 31, 2001).]

 

Ok this is a little harsh but it is my opinion never the less-

I think that your prom burning article was helpful and I was interested when I stumbled onto it. The problem is however that alot of people are asking the same questions over and over and over again. Questions they could easily find in the archieves or from using a simple search on the web. It is just easier to ask a question and use someone elses time than use your own. It is the old standard of how you would rather have something given to you than work for it yourself. I believe this coincides with the other saying that you always appreciate something more when you have worked for it. I don't disagree whith making the information available but I think that people need to realize that every time someone asked a question that has been aswered a zillion times, they are trying the patience of the group. Read the archieves and do the work and research yourself. When you have a question to ask. Ask it to the point and articulate it well. The question will then be answered to the point.

I'm sorry it is rambling. It just reminds me of all the free-loaders that used to be in my college classes. They would walk into class 15 minutes late, then ask the same question that was answered 2 times 5 minutes before they walked in. Then leave early because they got the answer to the only question they had (which you have heard the answer to 4 time now because their buddy walked in 10 minutes after them and asked the same question again). Then you run into them and they have the nerve to ask you what they missed and if they could copy your notes because they had to leave early. It just PISSES me off!!

It is lack of respect for those who choose to answer the questions. Weather in class, in the real world, or here on the board. If you have questions, ask them. But it asways sits better for all involved if you do your homework first.

Sorry to rant, and I know that this is off topic.. It seems that your article gives many if not all links pertinate to learning how to burn your own proms.. for those that want to learn


gdkng

 

gdkng,

Amen. That's why I changed my signature.

Tim

------------------

• Program your own PROMs!. Read my article to get started!
• Research and Experiment before asking questions.
• This is not a chip store. Go to the classifieds if you want someone to sell you a chip or give you a BIN.

TRAXION's 1990 IROC-Z
Best Time = 12.244 @ 112.51mph (1.778 60' / 7.819@88.32mph in the 1/8)
All Natural. No Force. No Drugs. Stock Bottom End. Stock Body Panels.
Gunning for NA 11's with bigger cam, bigger stall, and bigger exhaust.
-=ICON Motorsports=-
Moderator: PROM board at thirdgen.org

 

Gdkng, wouldn't it be nice if EVERYONE would read the article first, follow the links, read some of the older posts on this board and the archives; and then ask specific questions that are challenging and interesting to everyone? Sure would.

Regrettably, not everyone is going to do it. What's worst, someone will ask the question on a post, when the identical question was asked only a post or two earlier. (sigh).

I remember when this board whas initially created as a private board and I was asked by Pablo and Dirk to join. I had been heavily into Diacom and learnt a lot of how the ecm worked and how to interpret Diacom readings. I even created a bunch of spreadsheets to assist me in my tuning. At that time, Tim's article didn't exist and I was in the middle of a major relocation and I could not participate like I wanted to. Once I got settled into my new job and new location, I returned to www.thirdgen.org late in the fall.

Tim's article is one of the best "one spot" locations I have ever seen on eprom programming. Not only did it discuss it thoroughly, but it showed me the various alternatives and where I could obtain the necessary equipment and software. It is damn hard to improve IMO.

I notice that some members give some "abrupt" answers sometimes, and though I might be inclined to do the same; I think "pointing" them to Tim's article is still the best approach. I believe that we all benefit from encouraging as many members to get inside the eprom and share information. There is always something new to be discovered and the more people that we have playing with it, the more information we will have revealed to each other.

I would love to see follow up articles like an "Intermediate" and "Advance" level; allowing us to further share information. Information, that for the most part, has already been discussed within the archives of this board, but not formalized in anyone location.

Unfortunately, this is a lot of work and when you combine that with your regular job, family, personal committments and playing with your own vehicle, this does not leave much time for anything else. My hat is off to Tim for taking this time to make it so much easier for all of us.

Tim, if you could use a hand in "drafting" any parts for future articles which I have "worked with", feel free to ask. You could then take whatever parts you may want and incorporate them into those future articles. I too have only a limited amount of time, but I think it is unfair for all of us to rest on our laurels while you do all the work.

 

Tim, I have another question (and I personally would like to know this one), "Where can I get the hacks"? And a question that has been asked by a few people is "What is a hack"? I know what they are but not a lot of people do.

I do have the 8D, 32, and 42 hacks from ECMGUY at http://www.geocities.com/ecmguy.geo/tuning/do_tune.html (which does explain about hacks). But I would be interested in other hacks that are out there. I do find the "hacks" are the best sources of information when the TDF doesn't have the constant, switch or table defined.


[This message has been edited by Glenn91L98GTA (edited January 31, 2001).]

 

Glenn,

You have everything that I know about that is posted for public consumption.

Tim

------------------

• Program your own PROMs!. Read my article to get started!
• Research and Experiment before asking questions.
• This is not a chip store. Go to the classifieds if you want someone to sell you a chip or give you a BIN.

TRAXION's 1990 IROC-Z
Best Time = 12.244 @ 112.51mph (1.778 60' / 7.819@88.32mph in the 1/8)
All Natural. No Force. No Drugs. Stock Bottom End. Stock Body Panels.
Gunning for NA 11's with bigger cam, bigger stall, and bigger exhaust.
-=ICON Motorsports=-
Moderator: PROM board at thirdgen.org

 

Tim, one of the things I was thinking about is the "expectation gap" of what an eprom can do for you, realistically.

I think back to the day I first bought my car back in 1991, and took it over to show my buddies. I laugh now about some of the "myths" that were considered "fact" back then and one of the biggest areas was the eprom itself.

I remember the comment "You cannot do anything to that motor, except change the chip. But if you get a new chip, it can give you anywhere from 35 to 100 HP, depending on the chip". Well, we both know that this is utterly false on a basically stock engine with the stock eprom and if your engine is in basically good operating order.

And I have seen for myself that going off and just cranking up the fuel pressure on a basically stock engine (one of the first mods) is not necessarily the best thing to do. In fact, you may kill performance if you are running too rich, which they probably are; I was.

But, it would be nice to ensure that some of the newbies do know what they can expect and what not to expect on a basically stock engine. (And if you haven't replaced the heads and or cam, I consider your engine basically stock...headers and intake are just bolt-ons IMO).

What I have noticed and would say is that for a basically stock engine, you can expect:

1) Improved driveability. My eprom has eliminated a "stutter/hesitation" that has plagued my car since almost the day I got it...and I have done a lot to address it. It was part of the reason I got Diacom two years ago, because it was bugging me to no end. And it was through Diacom that I noticed that when it occurred, my BLM/INT were going nuts. Kind of lead me to the conclusion that there was something in the eprom, since it was about the only part that I hadn't changed.

2) Increased engine smoothness. Even my wife notices this one. It is immediately apparent when you start up the car. You could balance a quarter on the intake and it wouldn't fall off, it feels that smooth.

3) Increased fuel economy. This is of course dependent on how "off" you are and if you have some "mod" that is affecting the engine. But once you get it very close, you can then take advantage of "highway mode" or "lean cruise" depending on your ecm (not all have these features). But if your tables are not correct, this option will not work properly and can possibly waste fuel. But when your tables are correct, why run at 14.7 when you can run at 16.2 (or higher) when you are just travelling down a level highway.

4) Increased HP. If your basically stock engine was half way correct, you probably won't notice too much IMO. I'll see more when I get a chance to test my car in the spring. But on a basically stock car, your car would have to be way off for a noticeable difference in HP. But the engine will feel "crisper" throughout the power band.

On a heavily modded engine, yes, this can have a large difference between being "close" and being "perfect". But I just wanted to make sure that some newbie with a stock TBI 305 that is in good working order gets into this and expects to gain 35 HP, that he knows the truth. If he was to feel 35 HP, then his engine was off before hand; which is probably a good thing that he burnt his own eprom.

[This message has been edited by Glenn91L98GTA (edited February 01, 2001).]

 

I felt I should write in on this one. I have been a member of thirdgen.org for quite sometime. Although I rarely contribute to the posts I am often lurking through the boards looking for information.

I have recently grown an interest in chip burning so I can optimize my car this spring and the future. I installed 24 LB SVO Injectors on a stock L98 so from what I've read I need to modify my chip to the new pulse width not to run rich. Thanks guys

I have read Traxions article, followed the links and gone though most old postings on this and the other boards. They have been extremely helpful in getting a bearing on this topic. I now feel confident to order the necessary equipement and begin experimenting. thanks once again

Until now I have been quite happy and thankfull that thrirdgen exists. You guys are knowlegdable and generally very generous with your information..thanks for the third time, but I feel that I must say something to "newbies" and experienced members as well...First off the term "newbies" is a little derogative...I might be classed in that group for my lack of knowledge/experience on this topic and lack of contribution in the prom burning board but I feel I am far from new to the automotive performance. Secondly not all of us have the time to do the hours of research that myself and obviously Glenn, Blade, Traxion and the rest of you helpful guys have put into this. I for one will never ask a question without exhausting all other methods of finding an answer on my own, but others might be strained for time.

They idea of an FAQ on this and other topics for that matter is great and I would definatly appreciate it but please be patient with people..after all this is a message board and some people might not know enough to view old posts and do searchs..

I hope as time goes on people will learn not to abuse this great resource we have in you knowlegable guys but after all you do answer them which only invites more questions and people for that matter...

I think your problems are a creation of your generally helpful demeanors...

For the last time thanks for all the info and I pledge not to ask the typical "newbie" questions to the best of my abilities, I just hope for your sakes other "newbies" will do the same



------------------
89 GTA 350 T-Tops White/Grey----Looking for a little more performance than stock!

 

Poncho,

Very well thought out. Just a quick FYI ... I am considered a 'newbie' among many of the truly experienced programmers. I am OK with that. The more you learn the more you realize that you really don't know that much. Almost feels like the more that I learn the more that I feel like a newbie

Patience is a virtue. Yes, I know. Glenn has a huge amount of patience right now judging by his posts Kudos to Glenn. Most of my extra time is spent doing 'other' stuff ... like working on the car, participating in other F-Body topics, writing programs, and researching other 'stuff'. For me its more about the amount of time I actually have on my hands as opposed to the patience. The new changes to PROM article should help out more. I emphasize research and point directly to places to look.

Thanks for the input!

Tim

------------------

• Program your own PROMs!. Read my article to get started!
• Research and Experiment before asking questions.
• This is not a chip store. Go to the classifieds if you want someone to sell you a chip or give you a BIN.

TRAXION's 1990 IROC-Z
Best Time = 12.244 @ 112.51mph (1.778 60' / 7.819@88.32mph in the 1/8)
All Natural. No Force. No Drugs. Stock Bottom End. Stock Body Panels.
Gunning for NA 11's with bigger cam, bigger stall, and bigger exhaust.
-=ICON Motorsports=-
Moderator: PROM board at thirdgen.org

 

Tim, I just read your revised PROM article again and like the changes/additions. Lots of good information and definitely a "must-read" for anybody considering or interested in burning their own chips. I do have one small suggestion. The hyperlinks are very hard to distinguish from the regular text. I may be 1/2-blind but my eyes can still tell colors apart, and these were tough. I almost skipped over some of the links that were in the middle of paragraphs. Keep up the good work! I enjoy Glenn's and Grumpy's posts too as one can never have too much information.

------------------
Greg Westphal
'87 IROC 305TPI/A4

 

Greg,

Thanks for the thumbs up. I understand completely what you are sayinging about the links. But, I am tied to the link color that TGO is using. Let me see what I can do though.

Tim

------------------

• Program your own PROMs!. Read my article to get started!
• Research and Experiment before asking questions.
• This is not a chip store. Go to the classifieds if you want someone to sell you a chip or give you a BIN.

TRAXION's 1990 IROC-Z
Best Time = 12.244 @ 112.51mph (1.778 60' / 7.819@88.32mph in the 1/8)
All Natural. No Force. No Drugs. Stock Bottom End. Stock Body Panels.
Gunning for NA 11's with bigger cam, bigger stall, and bigger exhaust.
-=ICON Motorsports=-
Moderator: PROM board at thirdgen.org

 

Hey there,

First off, terrific article. I am very grateful for you guys sharing info on this board. Without it, I probably would have never known that I could even do DIY PROM stuff. Anyway, I'm writing because I know when I started on here a few weeks ago, I asked a couple stupid questions that probably made everyone cringe and I got a "Do a Search!" response. In all honesty, up to that point, I didn't know there even was a search button. Yeah, I know, it's stupid of me. But I just registered on the site, I was all gung-ho on finding some information and I jumped into a tech board and asked a question. My point is, I like the idea of a big ol' search button to greet you when you get on the boards. And maybe a little disclaimer up there next to "welcome to the third Generation F-Bodies". Anyway, that's how it/is was from a Newbie perspective when I joined. And I promise to try not to ask stupid questions.


Mike:hail:

 

I for one don't mind stupid questions (we all know there is no such thing as a stupid question... ) as long as you have taken the time to try to find an answer yourself. The thing is, most of this stuff has been gone over dozens of times. So the information should be there, in detail. If you spend some time looking, and still can't find an anwer, then by all means go ahead and ask it... IMHO

 

HI everyone.
I do believe that this is the first time I replyed to a thread on the DIY PROM board. I am a newbie, and I have tunercat registered, and now own a pocket programmer. I had both feet in the grave to start with. I never was really any good at the PC thing, and I didnt even know how to unzip a file until recently. Im a 38 year old car nut, that has a car not running up to expectations, and I was thinking about DFI Then I had a guy named Glenn contact me through the board, and he has been a big help in getting me started. Im grateful for the patience he has with me learning the basics and all. I now have a new PC and all and things are lookin good. The reason I have not replied before is, I wanted to keep my mouth shut and ears open, or should I say eyes? In all honesty this is somthing I rarely do...just ask my wife. But just a little advice to other newbies like myself, there is no such thing as a stupid question, but research it before you ask. I had a huge list, that I needed answered, and Im sure I will need some of it answered for me, but the point Im trying to make is, youll be amazed at how much info you can gather, by printing articles, like Traxions efforts, and" How to program proms "on the technical articles section. That way I can read them in my spare time, or before bed at night, and not just while at the PC. Just dont read this stuff once either, as I read the "how to" article about 5 times before things made sense. This is a learning process, and it will TAKE SOME TIME. Rome wasnt built in a day. Just research, and print all the notes you can. Things will start making sense. Good Luck and Happy Tuning...Tom.

 

I am also a total newb to this whole chip burning thing. I agree with Dewey and brutal about there never being a stupid question. However, people have to realize that even though a question may not be "stupid" it could still be overasked and thorougly explained if the proper research is done. I don't think I have yet to post on this board and I have been reading all the stickies, tech articles, even Moates' site for weeks now, but am still lost. I think that is the main reason, other than laziness, that "newbs" ask redudant questions. There is an amazing amount of information on this one topic that any beginner, without proper guidance and explanation, would be overwhelmed with just getting started. For you guys with the hours and hours of research and patience on getting things done and explained, you have my utmost respect and thanks.

At this time, I have no pertenant questions to add to this topic as I am sure any questions I have thus far are answered somewhere in some way. However, if and when I begin to learn and understand more, I will hopefully be able to add to being a bit helpful to other "newbs". Thanks guys.

 

I am going to make only one point and that is to sympathize with some of the new people and the "Do a Search". Hell, I even do that sometimes myself.

But, I have also tried to use the search feature....sometimes it works and I get the answer I am looking for. And sometimes I get a lot of junk posts that never answer my question.

My point is, "Yes, please try using the Search feature first". There is a good chance your question can be answered (mostly) and then you may need a little clarification.

Conversely, if you find yourself going through a 1000 posts and NEVER finding the answer, then, by all means "Ask the question" and mention that you tried a search but weren't getting anywhere.

Some of us old timers MAY even have a link to give that will answer ALL your questions to a specific point.

 

Here's the best source:
http://www.moates.net/fileman/index....%20and%20Hacks

It contains every hack I was able to find publically. It would be awesome if some of you who hold on to "private" hacks could throw them in there.

Of course, I just realized how old the original posts here are, so this may have been hashed out already. =)

 

It's only close to 4 years ago I requested this....better late than never. But it's an excellent link for others who may also be looking for additional info on other calibrations.

Thanks.

 

Wait, its not 2001... holy cow? Where am I? Who's president?

 

ROTFLMFAO! These threads do go a bit back. And, do you really want to know who is the Prez?...Tom

 

Again, great article Tim..
I'm way overdue for a reread of the stickies. One thing I do remember is a coherent tuning thread wasn't there. For the guys doing retrofit. I mean. We usually don't have a reasonably correct cal to start with.
I recall reading Glenn's method and some of how Trax does it. And if you read a lot of Grumpies posts you can pick stuff up.
But nothing along the lines of how Glenn wrote it. I think it was Glenn. Might have been the (?) 91Z28L98 person. Just basic steps, Start car, keep running till warmed up. Adj idle ve range till engine runs better or O2 volts = xxx depending on cam etc... This would help show what's involved in a broad sense.
A long list of threads with table/constants to adjust scares a lot of people off I'd imagine.
Sorry, I'd go look for it. But my binder stack is about half as big as the picture grumpy posted. But the wife keeps buying it with other stuff.... A couch won't in that room. So I can't stack them on it.

Also, for full understanding, people have to go to a number of the links in the stickies. I went to all of them repeatedly. Some emphasis on this might help. And a direct link to the white paper on Mangus's site on Hex too.
Understranding Hex

I've spent months trying to find another one after I forgot to link to it.
The formatting of the page was the same as this LJ's tutorial
It was the best I've (can't) found short of a college text I finally bought.

And, a better list of bins/cars. The one on Ludis's site is hard on the uniniated wannabe burners eyes.

And maybe a Turbo P4.pdf link.

Oh, and for the powers that be. I've been on the darkside a lot lately. (Turbomustang board) They have a Dynoboard. So people post their #'s and sometimes sheet. It was very helpful. I was looking for cam specs and all a post would get you was "call Cammotion". I just went through the Dyno board till I found a combo close to mine.

I'd better stop. It's 3am and I type real slow.

 

Who can burn a chip for me?
Why does everyone tell me to search?

Maybe a little section on how to ask prom related questions........

 

Thre are alot of questions regarding a chip for "3:73 gear" or something relating to the rear end.
Explain it's in the number of pulses to the ECM and the resultant output to the Cruise or dash speedo.

 

While no longer a total newbie, I still have a lot to learn. My problem is a very limited time available to do the research. I do as much research as I can before asking questions, but some times, time constraints limit my ability to do a thorough search.

What would be nice is if:

1) The tuning articles were listed ECM specific and code specific in one place. This would cut down the time needed for a thorough search and greatly reduce the repeat questions of the "ECM functionally illiterate". (I know that some of this has been done, but not to the "beat it to death" extent I would like to see)

2) Someone who had all those articles for one of the ECM's/Codes was motivated to put it all together and send it to Traxion. Surely there are several people who are experts with each type of ECM/Code. This way no one person would have to write it all.

3) All of the relationships between the different functions of the chip were expalined in detail. i.e. Lv8 vs PW vs. PE vs. VE, etc, etc. (This will sure help me!) What each one does and how they affect the others.

4) While most folks are running MAP sensors; and there is a ton of information available for them, don't forget us MAF sensor folks. Due to smog laws or money constraints we may be stuck with them for a while. (This includes 32A, 32B, 6E, and whatever the code for the 870 is...)

My list may be Level II specific instead of Level I, but that is what I would like to see. I've read the Holley Projection and Accel DFI manuals so I have a decent undestanding of how to tune MAP, but I have a MAF car for at least a couple of more years before I can convert it. CARB is none too keen on my converting my car to MAP. My experience with them is they care less about clean air than they do their ability to limit what you can do.......