Why not get together, and work out using the 808 code to convert to SD?.

If someone rocks *Moates* boat to do diagnostics for it, it would be a great boost.

Be interesting to see how close you could get to how a 730 runs.

the 808 code has alot of room for adding patches down the read, much simplier code then the US stuff, and there is a hac available for it. Well, let me say the locations are known

 

Sounds like a great idea Bruce the only major mod that needs to be done is incorporate the 165's 8192 baud rate into the code and get craigs software to read it.
I am currently trying to learn enough about disassembly to add code to my 808 that I have running my Pontiac.

Looking at the spare inputs it should be possible to incorporate the DIY WB input into it for datalogging ?
I know this sounds hard for most of us but there are people around with the knowledge that could lead a few of the willing learners through the process.

 

Let me see if I can figure out all the misspellings here...

You're proposing running the 808 code on a 7165 with a MAP setup instead of MAF???

What's the 808 code from???

 

Let's see it. Sounds like fun, a 'software' solution for MAF-MAP conversion. I'd be willing to plug it in to my MAF car.

If someone starts playing around with it, I'd be glad to integrate the datastream on the diagnostic front...

 

Hmmmm . . . sounds like a Haltech with knock sensor and emissions stuff. Is the machine language the same between the '165s and '730s? There must be some way to rearrange the I/O addressing and transpose the actual program.

 

Unfortunately, no. The actual instructions and tables take just over 18K on a 7730. Unless you can find extraneous code and tables, there just isn't enough room on the 27C128 to make the 7730 code fit.

 

Someone needs to make a piggy-back processor that could plug into the PROM's socket. Or how about a "from scratch" '730 PCB that has the wiring for the two-connector '165 config? I think there will be a good market for a plug 'n play replacement (emmissions-legal) for the MAF system. These guys used(?) to make and interface adapter to go from MAF to SD:

http://hotrodlane.cc

 

160 baud works just fine, you don't have to get crazy to do something. It's wanting all the lastest bobbles that kills getting anything done.

KISS.

 

The 808 is an australian version on the 165. Yes, it is MAP rather then MAF.

 

No the Haltech code is nothing like the 808. Thou you could prune down the 808 stuff if someone wanted to make a source code for it.

Why worry about the 730?.
If you want to run a 730, then run it. Crossing over code between ecms is a huge job, not to mention you'd have to cut down the 730 code to under 128K.

 

Several guys have offered the 730 to 165 conversion, trouble is no one wants to pay for them. That URL is dead from here, BTW.

I don't understand what a second processor is going to do. There is one already.

If someone was to source code the 165/730, and public domain it, then you could rework things exactly as you want, but that seems to be alot more work then folks want to do, and those that have source coded a ecm, have so much time effort and energy, there is no real reason for them to give away 9 months work. It wouldn't be that big off gig for 5-10 to do, but by yourself, it's a PITA.

 

Sure is. It worked last week. Cyber-terrorists?


[This message has been edited by Greg '85 T/A (edited September 19, 2001).]

 

This is a great Idea and with Craig able to get a scanner that will work I think its very possible. All that is needed would be the pin out for the MAP sensor, where it would go and anything else that would need to change. I wish I would have thought about this before going to the 730ecm(probly still would have went to it anyways).


Brendan

------------------
1987 IROC-Z L98,SR,EB 6085's,LPE 219/219 Cam, Crane 1.6RR, EB TPI Base, 58mm TB, Stock T5, 30lb SVO, AFPR, K&N, EB TES, Catco Cat, 3" Borla Cat-Back, Accel cap,rotor,distro/other crap, Aluminum DS, 94 Disk Rear, Adjustable Prop Valve, Precision 3.73 Gears, Weld in Sub-Frame Connectors, Hotchkis LCA's, KYB Shocks/Struts, Poly Bushings all over the place, Moog Upper/Lower Ball joints and Tie Rods ends/Idler Arm, Big stereo, 730SD Conversion.

To see the ROC, Check out the webpage Here

 

DIY-EFI.ORG has about all the wiring diagrams you could ever need at incoming.

 

To use in your 165 you need to wire a map sensor to
map input C11
map earth A11
map 5V ref C14

and unplug your MAF

I take the MAF input wire and move the pin at the ecu and T in at the MAF
Then take a ground and 5V of the TPS so you can always swap back by just
moving the pin at the ecu.

This is currently 160 baud but the code for 8192 baud from the 165 should be
able to be added to make the 808 code the same.

 

Commented hac of ASBX found at:

http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/disasm.html

Don't know as yet if it's TPI or TBI...update coming...

------------------
1982 Z-28

See http://www.mycar.net/mafb/registry/detail.cfm?id=276 for details

[This message has been edited by kevinc (edited September 20, 2001).]

 

That's what's called being disassemblied.
Commented is where eash item is discribed, all the way from beginning to end. Even if you have a **doc** showing say Lean Cruise AFR, doesn't mean it's acutally supported in code. The code in the C3 and P4 was patched as needed to get the cars drivibile, and to pass emissions, so there are some oddities.

 

Yeah yeah, sorry about the confusion...I typed before I looked. As mentioned above it's only a disassembly, not commented.

Is there a commented hac out there anywhere? Is there a BCC for a V8 TPI application on the 808?

I've been digging thru diy-efi.org and searching the engines, will post if I find anything.

------------------
1982 Z-28

See http://www.mycar.net/mafb/registry/detail.cfm?id=276 for details

 

The ASBX is a v8 application.
Try programming 808, I posted the calibration end of things about 2 years ago.
It shows a comparo of several applications and how the valies change.

 

GRUMPY,
I would like to ask you a few prom questions off board. Please email me.

 

Bruce is so right. On the AUJP for the SD 7730, GM has the tables and code for Highway Mode and Highway Spark Advance. However, GM disabled both by setting some of the constants (Coolant temp) to an impossibly high number and had no values in the tables to boot.

I also found that Highway Mode Spark Advance also had a few other things in the code to cause it not to work, unless you dig into the code and either eliminate the condition or change the condition testing.

 

ASBX is used here in the Australian 5.0L V8 TPI.
To use it with the Chev dissy the spark ref angle needs to be changed and the injector constant will need to be scaled for 350 cubes and the larger injectors used in the 350 TPI.
If anyone wants a base calibration that I used as my starting point email me off list.
REMEMBER THIS IS ONLY A CALIBRATION TO START AND RUN THE ENGINE it will need lots of VE tweeks to suit your paticular combo's.
No it does not have lean cruise but the later $5A calibrations do , they just havent been disassembled yet but these do have 8192 baud for scan tool.

 

This is a very interesting idea. It would be great to have a software solution for converting MAF to MAP. I have access to a '88 Corvette (w/406 TPI) that currently is running $6E code, which would be a good candidate for this.

Besides the necessary minor wiring changes to incorporate the MAP sensor and the proper SW, is anything else required? Is ASBX the best to use as a base? Oh, and does anybody know if Diacom will work with this '165-ASBX combo?

Nick

 

Yes the ASBX will work ok in your stroked Chev nad no calibration is ideal until you modify to suit your combo.

But back to the thread that Bruce started , are there any guys out there interested in getting together to modify the 808 map code to better suit our combo's not just in the calibration but in learning how to read and change the code to add stuff like shift lights ,highway fuel and spark mode ,support for 2 bar maps etc ?

 

I'm no coder, but if you'd like a Beta tester, I have an '86 Corvette L98 7165 w/4+3 that is undergoing extensive and on-going EPROM experimentation (spare chips, ECU, and MemCals) that I would be happy to test BINs on...Which is more-or-less what I am engaged in now...

 

I'd really like to get involved in this project. I'm very expirienced in disassemling and coding Motorola, TI, and Intel architectures. This seems like a fairly easy job as I'm sure most of the tables have been mapped out, which would make figuring out the code and commenting MUCH easier than the projects I usually take on. Unfortunately, time is one asset I am very short of. This is the reason I'm considering going with Kalmaker, as I just don't have the time right now to mess with tuning a factory setup, let alone coding for one. Hopefully I will have some time in November and December. If this is still ongoing then, I will gladly jump onboard.

 

That's a given. That's what a scanning tool and WB O2 sensor is for

I wouldn't mind getting in on that. I think the first task would be to get the '165-ASBX hybrid functional first. After everything appears to be working properly, then new features could start being added.

In a previous post, you mentioned that the spark reference had to be changed to use the ASBX code in a '165 TPI setup. Could you explain what you meant by that?

Nick

 

Nick the spark ref angle @$0022 needs to be changed from 60 deg to 10 degs to suit the HEI dissy.
The base fuel constant @$0271 will also need to be changed to suit your injectors .There is a $5D tunercat definition file available from tunercat.
The 165/808/asbx change has been well proven here in AUS , BUT you do loose egr , airpump control and vats.Look on diy incoming for the approriate wiring diagrams for our map cars.
I have done this conversion both with kalmaker and normal prom chipping with good results.

 

Nick the spark ref angle @$0022 needs to be changed from 60 deg to 10 degs to suit the HEI dissy.
The base fuel constant @$0271 will also need to be changed to suit your injectors .There is a $5D tunercat definition file available from tunercat.
The 165/808/asbx change has been well proven here in AUS , BUT you do loose egr , airpump control and vats.Look on diy incoming for the approriate wiring diagrams for our map cars.
I have done this conversion both with kalmaker and normal prom chipping with good results.

 

I can help out with whatever I can. I am no hacker but I have been learning quickly. I would write you but you don't have your e-mail visible. I have a friend with a 87 Vette that might be willing to be a guinea pig. I am also building up an ecm test bench. Send me some mail. I am going with a 730 for my application but if I can help with this I figure I could do some things to the 730 too. Another thing, if going through the hassle of adapting a 808 code to 165 to overcome the MAF, why not try to make a translator too. Of course the map sensor cost and plumbing would be a whole lot cheaper and easier but some folks are rather attached to their MAFs. One last thing, the ASBX is DIS? Is that why the reference angle has to be changed?

 

Making a translator is no minor project. The ouput of the MAFs aren't perfectly linear. Getting one to translate to another is a PIC or similiar operation. It's no where near as easy as it would seem.
Other issues like 20% TPS is 70% of the cross sectional area.

If you want:
install a late MAF in series with the oem one. Logg the two, design a PIC to handle the conversion, then you have to experiment at WOT to get the math right for it to read the higher frequencies. It's not a simple divide by ten operation where talking about here.

 

Sorry I thought my email was visible
bossute@iprimus.com.au
The 808 can be either DIS or normal distributor , the reason for the spark ref angle change is that in our V8 we use a hall effect pickup and different module whereas the 6 cyl uses DIS with twin hall effect pickups and the 4 cyl uses magnetic distributor and module like the HEI.

 

I'm getting started on the 165 to 808 conversion, so I'm going to bump this and hopefully get people talking again.

I just ordered tunercat with the 5D mask info. Hopefully we could work on some later masks, maybe make some WinBin ecu files so anyone could use it for free.

Some interesting links:

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hlight=808+map (Why you should convert)
http://w1.601.telia.com/~u60113744/s...dl/winaldl.htm (WinALDL supports it)
http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi/html_.../msg00182.html (some people that have done it)
http://www.techedge.com.au/vehicle/1227808/default.htm (ECM info)
http://unite.com.au/~u11619a/memcals.html (List of masks)

 

The only two things that I'm having trouble finding out are:

MAP sensor... does anyone know a part number for the sensor that the 808 expects?

Knock sensor... I'm assuming since the memcal handles this stuff it should work ok. I want to be really careful with this since this is my daily driver.

 

87-91 GM TBI Pickups, 87-91 V6 Astrovans, TBI F Bodies, 90-92 TPIs.

K/S stuff is all the same. Just use a 165's memcal, and the corresponding sensor.

The difference from the 165 to 808 is that the 165 has the high speed chip for the faster ALDL.

 

Great, thanks Grumpy!

The buy and sell newspaper comes out today so tonight I guess I'll find people parting out cars.

Too bad I have an autocross on Sunday, I would have liked to get it done this weekend.

 

Winaldl has great support for the 808 code - although the BLM logging table does not seem to work but you can log directly from the raw data.

I have been running the 808 code in my Pontiac using a 165 now for 2 years and it is so much better than the Maf I was originally playing with.

Now that I have 60hp and 4 mpg more its time to stroke the old girl and fit some alloy heads and a cam :-)

 

Hehe, cool. My MAP sensor and connector are in the mail, so in the next couple of weeks I should be able to post my results.

 

Can you explain this a bit (like how the average enthusiast overcomes this or how to possibly fix the issue)? I have been eyeing this 808 conversion for the MAF TPIs for a bit and, for a few reasons such as my MAF going south, I may attempt to go with it ahead of schedule and I want to cover all of my bases. It seems to be the 'way of the future' for us MAF folk, but I certainly need to be able to log BLM data for tuning purposes....

TIA

As for the original idea about running this code, it appears that Tomcat has this running successfully, so that part is accomplished (correct?). And there is a scantool that works (sort of). But if Craig can make (a better) one, more power to him! I am really interested in running this code, but adding a bunch of code and doing a lot of the more involved hacking to run other equipment like WBO2s and whatnot is really beyond me. I would be totally happy (at least for now) just getting the standard system operating as it should (could) with our TPI applications.

Well, I just took a quick look through the spare parts bins and found about a foot of wiring with the green three wire connector for a MAP fastened to a MAP sensor that I got off of a friends TBI C/K truck that went carb couple years ago..... So correct me if I go wrong anywhere here: I use TunderCat so that is covered, just need the $5D definition file..... maybe next week with that (fundage issues). I have a laptop and cable (AKM cable) that I currently use Craig Moates software with, so just going with WinALDL should get me a scantool.... Seems like I am almost ready to go....

TIA,
-Matt

 

As for the original idea about running this code, it appears that Tomcat has this running successfully, so that part is accomplished (correct?). And there is a scantool that works (sort of). But if Craig can make (a better) one, more power to him! I am really interested in running this code, but adding a bunch of code and doing a lot of the more involved hacking to run other equipment like WBO2s and whatnot is really beyond me. I would be totally happy (at least for now) just getting the standard system operating as it should (could) with our TPI applications.

It all works great , no need to add any extra code unless you want extra features like wideband input.

The std code works great , and winaldl support is great other than a minor glitch that needs a bit of testing to sort out but its still very functional.

Best bit is that both map and maf can be interchanged easily as you play.
$5D code will also run 4,6 and 8cyl and also TBI as well as TPI.

I finished getting a LT1 running today in a Holden Commodore using $5D code - drove that well he got booked for dangerous driving ( smoking tyres) within 5 mins of leaving my place

 

What happens when you get "booked" down under?

 

Matt87GTA, have you looked at doing any disassembly? I just got the Motorola pink book and I think I'll try to get started on the 5D hack. I haven't seen anyone else working on it. I'm going back to school in September, so I'm sure I'll have some spare time then to work on it.

I think the first thing would be to get rid of the IAT code and have it run a WB02 input.

Alex

PS. If you want to save some money, there is a WinBin ecu file in the diy ftp site, that has *more* stuff than the 5D def in Tunercat.

 

Not really. I am not much of a code guy and kind of figured it was over my head. Plus I am about to get really busy until school starts again in the fall with my summer job.... And I don't seem to have much spare time when school is going on either...... Just getting and keeping my GTA on the road at all (and performing well of course) keeps me quite occupied .

Thanks for the heads up. Maybe I'll give that a try too, but I did have some bad luck with Winbin before. But if Winbin has *more* stuff than TunerCat........ hmmm.....

 

I think the first thing would be to get rid of the IAT code and have it run a WB02 input.

There are a few spare inputs without hacking into the IAC code , its used in the 808 for spark compensation and other stuff.

IAC could be taken out of the data stream and the O2 output used for data logging.

I am part way through the 808 code but if you are serious about doing a disassembly the start with the later $5A or $12 code as it has 8192 bauld and lean cruise as well as 32k so more spare room for patches.

 

So would these other codes be a direct swap for the $5D code? As in, if the wiring changes required to run the MAP instead of the MAF sensor with the 165 ECM were done, would these other codes work? Should I assume that a 256k PROM would be required for using a 32K bin?

So where did the $5D ecu file for Winbin and the tdf for Tunercat come from if you are still working on the hac? Is there another hac out there already? Bahhhh..... I just have troubles with understanding how hacs and dissassembling a bin works..... It seems very overwhelming at this point. :-\

Plus I am still confused why my $5D Winbin ecu doesn't want to work..... Does yours work Alex ( or anybody else that has tried it)?

 

Where the heck did my message go? I could have sworn that I posted it.

Anyway, you probably downloaded the file with IE, which downloaded it in binary form. You need to use an FTP client to transfer it in ASCII form.

Yes, I got it to work, and I got the same error message as you.

I beleive that the file size should be 83K. If it's 78K, it didn't download right.

The $5A number means a 'mask'. So the $32, $6E, $5D, $5A masks all run on the same ECM, it's just a matter of plugging in the right numbers. So, I'll get a hold of the $5A binary, and disassemble it, and get started on the hac.

 

This may be off help , a $5A binary and a calibration dump of it

All I ask is that it is shared with the list and I will help on the hack as much as possible

 

Yeah, you posted on the other thread...... We have two threads going with virtually the same stuff...... I grabbed the ecu from you off the other thread and it works fine. Thanks!

That all makes some sense, but I am still a bit lost on the disassembling part...... So basically what the mask allows you to do is take advantage of the hardware construction of a particular ECM to operate with different 'software', right? So the disassembly process must involve taking a known bin for a given mask and mapping the information on it to the different locations on the PROM, and thus, the inputs and outputs of the ECM.... Am I close? And I take it there are some kind of utilities out there that assist with this, or? Sorry if I ask too many questions... I just don't want to sit back and reap rewards from other peoples' work and I would like to do what I can to help (or at least understand what is going on) : ) .

Laterz,
Matt

 

I think I see where you are confused...

A bin contains both the tables, values, etc. as well as the machine code for the processor. The machine code is in binary, that provides the instructions for the processor.

The machine code is just 1's and 0's. When the bin gets disassembled, it is turned into assembly language. This is readable by humans (barely). That's the easy part, a program just translates the 1's and 0's to text.

The hard part is *understanding* what these instructions do. That's why a commented hac is so important, and such hard work.

Tomcat, thanks! This is going to be a long term thing, but in September I will really be able to spend time on it.

 

Get back to me when you get started , I am struggling through it at the moment and not getting too far - more than happy to work together with a group to get this out in the open.