basically paid a bunch of money for a dyno tune, never had it finished all he did was lock the blms at 128 and tune with a sniffer for WOT.

so starting to tune now, brand new to tuning, all of the tables were left for the stock tpi unit.

i have my VE table where its still a little bit rich but at the very least represents my powerband.

looking at my datalogging its showing a knock count of 19-20 the entire time, with Spark Adv Rel. to TDC in the 22-40 range and Spark Adv Rel. to Ref Pulse in the 16-32 range

spark tables for me i find a fair bit more confusing then VE tables and not sure exactly where to even start.

worried about the knock count doing damage to the motor.

 

the spark tables really aren't that hard.
i don't really worry about any knock counts you may get during startup, the starter is right the by the knock sensor & its not unusual to see a few counts at startup.

if you don't know about it, you can set TunerPro up for data tracing & it highlights where your at in the spark table. (data tracing does the same in the VE tables too)
find where your getting knock retard & look at how much knock retard your getting & in those areas back the timing down.

look at these 2 pics, at 1125 RPM & MAP of 71, i got 1 knock count with a knock retard of 1.93.
im not in any one cell, so i need to make changes to more than 1 cell. with what i was seeing in my log, this is what i did.
to start with in cell 1000 RPM & MAP of 70 im at 25 degrees, 1200 & 60 im at 30, 1200 & 70 im at 26.
i change those 3 cells, 1000 & 70 to 23, 1200 & 60 to 28, and 1200 & 70 to 23.

 

knock sensor is actually relocated to drivers side for long tubes.

i didnt know tunerpro did that for you, all of the editing on my ve table was just off the top of my head, what i thought my power band should like, found a stealth ram bin and its almost dead on to that.

im a little out of it right now so when i use that function tommorow ill see where it gets me with my timing.

motor felt freaking awesome tho, just screamed and stayed mostly on the rich side so i wasnt worried.

finally runs descent

gotta get the timing figured out tho so i dont do damage to the beast

 

found where it says datatracing and couldnt figure out how to make it work.

found this in the help menu
TunerPro RT implements a feature that allows you to correlate ALDL data with bin parameters in real-time. This feature is useful for quickly identifying problem areas in a tune and the parameters responsible for the problem. This is accomplished by "linking" an XDF (bin definition) file with an ADS (ALDL Datastream definition) file. Once the link has been made, you can edit the XDF items to have direct links to ADS items.

how do i actually connect the definiton file to my xdf/bin? and what good is the datastream doesnt it need the actual adl file?

on top of that you talk about where you have 1 knock count, ia have 20 solid the whole way through, my tables are way out of whack

 

further update

pulled out a little bit more fuel from the ve table and turned the tps values for PE to 99%.

could see right away that i was hitting 160 when i went over 3200 rpms, need to put more fuel in the upper range.

Can someone explain to me the difference between BLM's and the integrator value.

sometimes i was getting a blm of 128 with integrator of 160, sometimes a blm of 110 with an integrator of 128, and sometimes an integrator of 130 with a 140 blm.

also still not sure how to link the xds file with the ads file, how do i actually accomplish that?

as far as my spark table is concerned with less fuel and pe turned off knock count dropped down to 5 and i was getting 0% knock retard the entire time

EDIT under constants cylinder number is set to 0? what should that value be?

 

Have you read the stickies up top yet, they
help alot

 

INT is short term fuel trim, BLM is long term fuel trim basically, 0 is the correct number for cylinders if you're running an eight cylinder.

 

the integrator is short term fuel trim, it changes fast.
the BLM is long term fuel trim, it changes slower & uses the integrator to decide which way & how far to go.
the ECM remembers what it needed to do with fuel the last time you drove the car, so clearing the memory in the ECM before each time before you data log helps. the closer you get the tune, the less often the ECM needs to be cleared.
with the cylinder number set to 0, that tells the bin you have 8 cylinders.

it took me a little while to figure out the data tracing, i kind of got lost trying to understand how to set it up. i think this may explain it better for those of us who don't understand some of the terms used that good & make it a little easier.
for data tracing, open TunerPro & with the bin & XDF already selected, find the lower VE table in Tables/Functions & highlight it & hit F2. now in the General tab, find Output type & select Floating Point.
go to Rows & in Row Label Type, select Floating Point.
go to Columns & find Column Label type & set it to Floating Point. now hit apply.
now go to ALDL Assoc. click on "Select X Axis ALDL Item", now Select Manifold Absolute Pressure.
next go to "Select Y Axis ALDL Item" & Select Engine speed. hit apply & close it.
open the table you just did this to & click the data tracing icon, now run a data log.
this should get data tracing working for the lower VE table. doing the same for both upper VE & your main spark tables should get it going for them too.
i believe there is one or 2 other steps you need to do to have data tracing work in TunerPro without having to go through the above procedure every time you start TunerPro & want to make changes & use the data tracing feature.

if i left something out, i hope someone will jump in with it.

one thing, using Data Tracing is almost like cheating

 

ya im trying to stay away from cheating, not using the VE tools or anything that i can just figure out myself, i think im already somewhat close.

i just really dont understand timing and how to play with it, i know you want to run as much timing as you can without getting knock, then back it off just a bit, for peak power at least

a little bit more nervous about changing the timing too because if i **** up with the fuel curve ill just see it correct all the way lean or rich and i can just stop, go home and fix it. mess up with timing and the motor could go boom

thanks again for all your help man!! theres no way i could be learning this quickly if i didnt have help from people every time i got stuck up. appreciate it immensly

 

I think you're a little overly cautious with the spark tables. Use them just like the VE - only use the knock counts and retard like you use the BLM's to know which way to go with the spark amounts. The motor is not likely to go BOOM! unless the knocks are really high for an extended period of time (several minutes) as long as you aren't running any nitrous anyway.

And FWIW, using the data tracing feature is hardly cheating. I prefer to think of is as being smart instead..... You are still making all the changes, it's just helping you find where they are needed a little better and easier.

 

Here's a thread that goes over some of the common issues with making DataTracing work.
Mostly just be certain the values are actually numbers (not strings) and have values in the range they should for displaying.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...tatracing.html

 

thank you kindly

EDIT: got the datatracing working and thats sweet. makes tuning the VE table even easier now.

as for the spark table i still dont know where to start.
as a general rule if i understand correctly

high rpm and high map # you need less advance

high rpm and low map# you need way more advance since its a leaner mixture?

low rpms high map# you need.....i woul think kind of in the middle of the previous two statements, you have a bit of fuel but not spinning high rpms and at large amounts of vacuum?

i dont know i dont really understand the principles how to adjust my SA, right now im getting a knock count of 4 or 5 and no knock retard so ive just been tuning the VE table with PE turned off and not worrying about it for the mean time. ill look through the stickies to see if i can find more SA details but it all seems kinda vague

 

EDIT: spark advance main extended only goes to the factory 5600. Dont see anywhere in the $8d.xdf file to get the most upper portion, do i need to run a different xdf file?

okay so had a nice little timing talk with a buddy, figured out that my timing was way too high down low (full advance in some points) and thats why i was getting a bucking down low
have a vague idea of how my timing curve shoudl maybe loook, going to post it up in a minute when done to get opinions, would like to run this new edit tommorow

EDIT: as a reference base timing is set to 6 degrees still, with i believe 4 degrees of advance built into my cam, 22 lb injectors (i know i could use 24's but it didnt lean out on the dyno till 6000 at WOT. All of the pictures have a direct link to the image so you can blow them up if you want to actually look at the numbers


allright heres a copy of my old SA curve think its the stock one and wasnt modified
http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x...ug90/OLDSA.jpg


heres the edit i did on the SA, i pulled a bunch of timing in the low map/rpm range because of a bad bucking at around 1600 rpms, took a little out of the midrange and added some to the 4400+ range, still not sure how to get 5600+ SA tuning
http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/19doug90/SA.jpg


and heres the fuel curve just for reference at where i have it most recently
http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/19doug90/VE.jpg

 

so i went to datalog with that timing curve, still had a bit of a low end stumble, was getting knock retard under high map high rpms so stayed out of that, and knock count went down to 3

so i adjusted the timing curve, took a little bit of timing out of the upper range, and took a little out where the 2000 rpm stumble is, also added a little fuel up top cause it was going lean.

ran the car all the way up to like 4500 without getting any knock retard, stumble is mostly fixed, but knock count went up to 42!? what gives here, not sure where i need to be adjusting

datatracing isnt a whole lot of help because none of my numbers are perfect, no matter how i adjust them it just seems to follow whatever rpm and map the motor is at in the datalog

Mostly concerned about this knock count tho, not sure how to edit. I guess i probably need to pull some timing but its not like the knock count varies at all, it just stay at whatever number its at when the car starts

 

It is common for the starter to cause knock counts. This is to be ignored. As the engine isn't running yet there isn't any retard from it. Can also get knock counts when the engine is shut off.

While tuning it is always a good idea to keep an eye on the plugs. They will tell the truth about whether the engine is detonating or not.

RBob.

 

i only ever start loggin once i already have the car running, and knock sensor is relocated to driver side anyways. Not concerned at all about the knock retard it reads when i shut the car off.

EDIT: okay so ive come to realize whatever the knock count is the second the car starts, is what tunerpro logs as being constant.

so when i start it sometimes the knock count is 2, sometimes its 28, sometimes its 34, etc and whatever number it reads on startup, is the number it shows through the entire log, even on the computer screen while actually logging it will not budge from the initial startup reading

tried connecting and disconnecting the aldl, that was all i could think of, how do i get an actual knock count reading?

i actually just went and checked my log file where i had a little bit of knock retard, and even then the knock count didnt budge from 3 at the time, so its definitly not recording an accurate knock coutn

 

The reason the ECM can being activating knock retard while not reporting additional knock counts is:

The ALDL only reports the MSB of the PA3 counts. The knock retard ECM logic looks at both bytes of the PA3 value. So if the LSB increments and doesn't overflow into the MSB, no additional knock counts are reported via the ALDL.

However, the ECM seeing counts (that we aren't) responds accordingly.

RBob.

 

sorry i had to look up all of that lol im new to tuning
got that PA3 is the address for the knock sensor, but i dont know what msb and lsb stand for.

also still dont understand how i can start the car with a knock count of 42 one time and it stays at 42 the whole time, and the next time it starts with a knock count of 12 with the exact same bin and stays at 12 the whole time.

how do you tell if youre actually having knock?

EDIT: okay still dont know what the two different things stand for, but understand that the msb detects major knock to pull timing, while the lsb samples much faster (too fast for the aldl to read it) and makes small adjustments.

still dont get how to detect knock tho, the MSB just registers on startup and thats all the aldl connection ever shows.

at least know im not seeing enough knock for the msb to be triggering retard

 

Need to check the plugs.

For the knock counts, during key-on, engine-crnaking, it is random as to how many knock counts are reported. Counts are counts, nothing more. You can rap on the engine block with the handle end of a hammer and it will register knock counts. If at idle, a true idle, no knock retard will occur.

The PA3 counter is 2 bytes, or 16 bits. Most other ECM values are 8 bits.

OK. 8 bits allow the decimal value of 0 through 255. No larger.

A 16 bit value allows 0 through 65535. A larger value.

PA3 uses the larger value. However, the ALDL only reports the upper 8 bits of the 16 bit value.

This makes it count by 256. Every 256 counts of the PA3 counter show 1 count in the ALDL stream. So if the LSB (lower 8 bits) goes from 64 to 128, you can have knock retard.

And the ALDL knock counts stay where they are.

RBob.

 

so why do people talk about then trying to get a knock count of 0? how is that even possible if it doesnt register true? or is that maybe for different ecms? (all my ecm knowledge is from reading off this board)

so basically as long as the plugs look good and im not getting any knock retard i shouldnt be too worried about timing damaging the motor?
and is there no other way to check for when youre approaching detonation? i would like to be able to get it to peak power, and then pull the timing back just a hair to make the motor last as long as possible, just had a bottom end rebuild done and owuld like it to last for a while

 

Take the timing up to where you start getting knock retard and then back it down 2-3 degress and you should be there....

 

awesome thats good to know, i know to look for speckeling on the plugs but i have forged pistons int here so i would really like to stay away from doing enough damage to make forged pistons speckle my plugs lol

its going lean up top and doesnt seem to matter how much fuel i put in. its on 22 lb injectors and definitly needs some quality 24's

it just got put away for the winter today tho so new injectors in the spring.