hey Guys. i'm sorry to ask a question that has be reposted several times but i'm at wits end. (please don't flame me)I've been research prom burning and aftermarket ecm's for over a year now and have a tough decision to make.

Current Setup: 1990 Silverado 350 TBI with 230000 on the clock. original 700r4 with the same milage.

New uninstalled setup. 69-79 350 longblock, fresh build, .040 flat tops, edelbrock performer plus cam and intake, vortec heads, shorty headers with o2 bungs. TBI with ultimate TBI mods, spacer, and adaptor plate. Rebuilt 700r4 with mild shift kit and TCI servo's.

I want to get proficient with tuning on the old engine before i attempt tuning a modified engine.

Anyway, here is my delima. I've looked at products from Mr. Moates and products from megasquirt. Both have excellent products at reasonable prices. I've also looked at a product called EBL Flash.

I'm aware pf the steep learning curve and have been reading post on the subject from various forums. this one is by far the best so you guys rock. i've famalarized myself with the termonology and i know what each component does and why it does it.

Here is what i need. I want opinions from the experts here. Which system should i go with. i want something RELIABLE, user friendly, very customizable, and economical. i know that some things have to be sacraficed in order to get the best system for me but i really need your help.

From what i've read so far, the chip burning items from Moates is the cheapest but i was wondering if the stock ECM is capable of using wideband o2 sensors. i know that right now it uses the narrow band but i've read the wideband is much more accurate and allows for precise fuel adjustments. I've probably left several of my questions off because im about to expload from all the crap swimming in my head.

Please take the time to tell me what setup you have, how hard it is to operate for a beginner, cost, and how satisfied you are with it. you can also say how much power and MPG you have been able to squeese out of it by doing it yourself.

Thanks in advance for your advice.

Dustin

 

Being as I just got into tuning myself, I decided to go the emulation route via Ostrich 2.0. This allows me to play with settings, and at any time easily switch back to the stock chip, without having to go through the burning/reburning process constantly whenever I wanted to change something small. Simply boot a laptop, make a change, and save it.

Emulation is not a permanent solution, but so far it's been wonderful for learning. That + an ALDL cable (and an adapter so I could use my stock memcal) was ~$300 shipped to my door. I have a feeling I'm going to be learning for a year or two until I'm confidant enough to burn a chip semi-permanently.

I've helped friends install megasquirt on Probes, and I'll say if you want to do it cheap you can buy the parts and soldier the boards yourself, that's probably the cheapest EFI solution I've found, however you should be pretty good at through-hole soldiering before you attempt that. I have never tried to tune that system, so I can't speak towards that.

 

Col, if i were in your shoes, the EBL is what i would get.
i haven't used the EBL, but from everything i have read its a great setup.
currently i don't have a TBI setup, i plan on going TBI in my Monte Carlo SS. if i don't go with an electronic trans in the SS, i'll get the EBL for it.
learning to tune with your stock motor will make it easier to the hang of it.

for my TPI Monte Carlo, i have the AutoProm. it is very easy to setup & use.
its learning to do the actual tuning that is hard & time consuming.
i have gotten a solid 5 MPG hiway increase from tuning my own chips with it. 29.7 hiway is my best to date & i know there is more to be gotten.
if my AutoProm was stolen, i would order another one that week.

on the wideband, the ECM doesn't use the wideband output, it uses the narrow band output from the WB controller. you use the wideband output for data logging.
my wideband has been in my car with the NB output to the ECM for almost a year.
i believe the NB output from the WB controller is more accurate than the stock NB O2 sensor.


i don't know much about the megasquirt, but from what i understand it is still some what limited in what it can do. i don't think it can do ignition timing control yet, but i may be wrong.

 

Haven't used EBL, Autoprom or anything but what's listed below. It was pretty straightforward getting started.

Ok, from www.moates.net get the Burn1, this actually programs the chip. Get the ALDU1 and CABLE1, that allows you to hook your car to your laptop. Get the GP1 package, that allows you to put a EEPROM (re-programmable prom) in your factory computer, it comes with a zif adaptor (I recommend it) and 2 chips. When you order all this you'll also get a copy of Mark Mansur's TunerPro RT. TunerPro is the program that allows you to alter the actual .bin, datalog and record. There are links on moates website under "documentation" that has .bins, and XDF files. XDF files are whats needed to let TunerPro recognize and translate and modify your .bin. There's a different XDF for different .bins. If you happen to have an 89 MAF car, TunerPro already has the .bins and XDF's loaded. If not, get them from the documentation link.

Everything above will get you going. It includes all the cables and programs you'll need and will only set you back about $225. It's a bargan when you recognize what it really can do for you. These guys (Moates and Mansur) have given the DIY crowd a real gift in their work. The prices are a bargan-really!

I also recommend HDR1. It's an adaptor that allows the Burn1 to "read" your factory chip so you don't really need to "find" a .bin at all.

Good luck and have a blast. Just remember follow the directions, ask question and when (not if) you get stumped, slow down and think about it. Most of the problems I had were silly things like putting the chip in backwards when I just KNEW I had it in right.

 

Hey Guys thanks for the opinions. I'm leaning toward the Moates stuff. I havent been able to find as much documentation on the EBL stuff. The Moates stuff is also cheaper.

Megasquirt is awesome though. it can do all sorts of things. boost controler, torque converter lock up, wideband support, ignition control. only bad thing is that you cant just go to the junkyard and buy another computer if yours fries.

I'll continue my research and focus more on mr. Moates.

 

I like the moates products.

You're not locked into just one vehicle for that investment, you can tune as many vehicles as you can physically tune with the same equipment over and over again (except for chips you would need a new chip for each vehicle, to run that developed bin ).

With the EBL, which does look like a good product, you need to buy a new one for each vehicle, and if something happens to the ECM, the cost and time to replace with another one is quite a bit higher than using a new EEPROM and/or ECM itself from the wreckers.

MS, there has been a discussion on another forum I'm a member of where the new to tuning poster has said how bad the OEM ECM is, because he can't get his idle steady, and it boils down to it's just too confusing for him, since there's so many values that can be adjusted. MS has it's place and works well for what it is, but when you have the ability to tune the OEM ECM and have so many variables to play with and get things set for many different scenarios, how can you not want to use that?
IMO MS is great for vehciles where there is little to no aftermarket OEM ECM tuning documentation or equipment, once such example is the early Datsun/Nissan EFI, that has litterally no way to tune, and even if it could be tuned it leaves a lot to be desired. This is where MS is a good option, if you don't know about the GM ECM route. The GM ECM is capable of doing everything that you listed as features on the MS, you just have to swap to a different ECM, such as the '7730 or '7749. The '7747 will control TCC, ignition, and a few other things. I know there are people that have hacked the '7747 to add other functions like E-fan control, and WBO2 input. The '7730 and '7749 can use code 59, which has ALL of the features you listed, and will have additional control outputs for additional injectors, nitrous/alky control, etc.