I figured you'd get a kick out of that..lol
Oh yes..... I've been watching that AFR, every VE learn it was going higher and higher. Thats when i stopped an made my post.... lifted the hood and found two large puddles of gas near the schrader valve. I'm assuming thats why I was getting leaner during the learns rather than going down. It was spraying pretty good once I shut it down.
My first three learns were with the BLM's and they did finally start to tighten up. Then switched to WB on the last three.

Decided tonight that I'm gonna order up a FP gauge and 90 to mount permently in the fuel rail rather than the schrader valve. Also will order the heated O2.

Enjoy your vacation... (sorry had to throw that in there!)

 

I'd like to add that you should probably double check that you have your wideband programmed correctly. It not outputting the correct AFR at a given voltage could explain the BLMs and WB AFR contradicting one another.

I sincerely hope that the new schader fixes your issue. I've only been using the EBL since Friday and am already getting very close with the tune fuel-wise. As I got into heavier throttle, I've had to start increasing the BPC to keep from overflowing the VE tables, but I'm still moving faster with it than with the MAF setup I was running. Still not where it needs to be and I can haze my 275/40/17s at a 40mph punch.

 

I know it your day off Bob but this video's for you. Definetly a ticking somewhere. I probed it with a pipe against my ear on the intake,plenum,valve covers, no change in the sounds though. It loudest on top of the engine and under the engine. I'm gonna have to lift it up to probe it near the oil pan. I'm hoping its just a sticky lifter. My big fear naturally is I've ran it lean to many times. But we'll see.

 

I know you said you hear the sound loudest under the engine, but sounds like injectors to me.

 

Back to doing some VE learns tomorrow. This week i installed a heated O2 sensor, and in place of the schrader valve I put a 90 in with a FP guage. I'm always hooking up the pressure gauge anyways so I figure it will benefit me.

I'm watch the lean condition tomorrow and if I start having the problem again I'll set up the .bin so I don't go CL as Rbob suggests. I'll post some results.
thanks

 

I started the day doing BLM learns and my last several have been WB02 preferred learns. A/F apprears to be coming in line. At this point I'm not even looking at KC's. Then engine isn't pinging so right now I won't worry about it.
I'm believing at this point maybe the lean condition was due to the schrader valve the entire time. Just didn't know it was broke until it actually started to leak fuel.
Headte 02 is definetly the way to go, seems to be a bit more stable.
And last but not least I'm also really believing the "clicking" is coming from a injector on the passenger's side. Just can't pin it down. May order up a set of Bosch III's just to see. I can't live with a clicking sound.
I won't post any screen shots until I get a few more done to get your guys opinions.
thanks

 

For the injector noise, check them to see if the body of the injector is in contact with either the rail or the manifold. That will amplify the sound. They should be suspended by the o-rings and not touching anything else.

May not hurt to do a hot valve adjustment either.

RBob.

 

I needed to update this for you guys so you didn't think I left you hanging. Found the ticking noise. Exh lifter was scuffed up on the bottom. Since I was going to tear it down I decided to go with my new cam and heads. Broke it in yesterday. I've done 3 BLM learns so far today. Seems like its running better and better each time. Knock counts are still there but nothing like they were.

Quick question. Why all of a sudden when I do my VE learns 1) My VE table is now reading all 0's all the time and 2) my files are no longer saving as a .bin file. Each time I have to go in and rename them so they show up as a .bin file.

For those interested here is my cam spec's now.
Here's the sound of the new cam
Comp 268H-14, Patriot heads,1.6rrs
Cam specs
Valve at lift INT .477 EXH .480
1.6 rr's .508 .512

.006 Tappet Lift 268/280
LSA 114
Duration @ .050 224/230
Lobe Lift .3180 / .3200

Actual Hg at HSR plenum while at idle is 17hg



Also now changed to Patriot Freedom Heads 185/64... CR is 10 to 1
This is gonna be interesting to tune!

 

sounds like a decent setup sorry i'm not helping you out any with your current questions, i'm just posting to get to know one thing:

how do you go about break-in of a new heads/cam combo when you don't have all the fueling tables etc it needs?

 

For a typical flat tappet cam break-in you need to run engine at about 2500 RPM for about 20 minutes. With no load and wide band available going slightly rich on the mixture (say 13- to 13.5 range) is easy way to assure that engine will be ok during break in period. I would simply bump VE values in 2600 -2800 RPM region to insure richer mixture in OL. Once cam is broken in VE tuning can begin.

//RF

 

i recently did a 20min break-in on a stockish rebuild of my L69 the way you described, but as said it's stockish and it's a carb (q-jet though) OL and some VE bumping sounds like a way to do it on EFI.. but no load? how is a new cam in the break-in phase a no load condition? i was also of the impression that the OP was using a hyd roller setup.

 

The XE268H cam is a Flat Tappet. I used Rotella oil with a bottle of ZZDPlus to break in the cam. Ran 2000-2500 RPM for a total of 30 min's. I did however have to shut it down twice during break in. However when I did I would just turn it off. Fortunetly it appears it never hurt the cam. You have to be a bit careful though, at those RPMs its like going 80 down the road... but with no air movement so it gets hot. We had the car on ramps and used a fan in front of the car and also spray a mist of water around the engine compartment during the break in period. On a side note I never changed my fueling tables but did watch my WB02. It ran between 11.8-14.7 during the entire break in period. I hope this helps you out and answers your question.

 

Possibly an incorrect XDF file?

I rename my VELearn files every Learn . Today I used 050410.bin I add .bin after a rename. Just a habit left over form years back. Possibly I do not need to do so as they are file type ".bin file"

 

The general idea behind 'break-in' procedure is to allow flat tappet lifters to match with lifter lobes. SBC flat cam has a slight slope across lobe profile which forces lifter to rotate inside lifter bore. No two pairs (lifter-lobe) are the same once engine operated for period of time. A camshaft does not experience different load - only crankshaft. Also, depending on metallurgy used some lobes wear faster than lifters and otherwise. This is why it is important to buy a matched cam - lifter set. To insure a long life cam - lifter add GM EOS which has lots of Zn & P/ZDDP needed to extend the life of flat tappet camshafts. EPA forced oil companies to reduce Zn since it tends to foul CATs.

After cam is 'broken-in' 500 miles of variable driving (gentle) should allow rings to break in. Change oil, filter, check head and intake bolts and you should be good to go.

//RF

 

I'm gonna bump this thread since my next question involves my SA table.

I've done more than 40 VE learns. Have done these in a variety of ways and still can't get my VE the way I want. Anyways its leading me into realizing that I'm gonna have to manually make some changes. I was reading one of Greg Banish's books tonight and it was discussing a "bucking" or "trailer hitching" situation. Something I know I have. Even so far as back to my idle... yep again surges in idle. But I want to take care of one problem at a time.

My idle presently is set around 850 rpm and will surge from 700 to 1000. In his book he stated that by advancing the SA in the areas of the problem may resolve the bucking issue. So I pulled up the table. My base timing is set a 6* BTDC, idle SA is 27.42

I noticed in my table (where its red) the numbers were orginally lower than my SA of 27.42. So I at least for now set those up to the 27.42.
My question here is should that help in my bucking? or surging?

Secondly, the section I highlighted as you can see is a lot lower than my idle SA. should I just leave those alone or readjust?

Third, Should my degrees go up in numbers both vertically and horizontally?
thanks guys

 

This may have been mentioned earlier? Long thread. All what I believe to help stabilize idle.
1. surround idle cell with same SA in SA tables. I see you did that at 27 d.
2. I would set SA idle(flag) so it should not wander.
3. Set idle correction tables to 1.0 deg or possibly zero it out so no SA correction for idle.
4. Idle OL maybe 13.8/1. I also run OL <20 MPH.
5. There may be others. I do not have access to my XDF right now.
6. Consider dropping idle SA and see how that works? I idle 17 SA, previous I idled 24?

 

I think your running a similiar setup as far as cam/heads.
I'll try and find the idle flag. think I know about where to look.
I dropped my AFR Stoich to 14 in hopes to help with this bucking I'm getting. Does my SA table look to steep?
A bit afraid to do anymore WB learns since thats when I start having more problems.

The bucking feeling I'm getting has got to be due to some cells that the fuel and spark are not working together. Its a pain trying to find that happy medium.

Is this where you welcome me to tuning?? sorry gotta have a relief somewhere's...lol

 

Does this bucking occur in the low 1000-1500 rpm range while driving? Whats your kpa when this occurs?

I would maybe add abit more spark (try 2-3 deg and see if that helps) in the 1000-1600 rpm range in the 60-75 KPA areas. Also may want to take 3-4 deg out of most of that table where you have 40-42 deg of timing. Seems alittle much for this application.

The other numbers in blue, in the bottom right of the table are rarely if ever hit. Dont need to do much with them unless you want to blend them in so the table looks abit better.

Then smooth out the table abit in the 1000-1600 rpm range from 40-60kpa. I see a few steep jumps there that may be abit too steep for this setup. Once you try ramping down the 42 deg peak timing in most of those cells down to something in the 38 range, smooth out the table abit and see what happens.

More than likely correct as getting the VE adjustments does take time to make transitions from cell to cell smooth enough that the engine is happy. My turbo motor was abit rough driving when i started tuning but the VE table was not the smoothest. I have been tweaking it and its comfortable now, none of the hitching feeling.

 

Yes, kpa is about 30
Tonight I tried to mark each time it would happen. Most 3rd gear cruising then I put it in OD and will go away for a moment. On harder accelleration its not noticeble...




I will try that.

Whenever i start to play with the VE tables. Most what I do is try an find a cell and drag the cell down assuming it will give me more fuel. Or at least I think thats how it works. But maybe my actual problem is in the SA and not so much the VE.
thanks for your reply

 

I wouldnt do any more wideband learns now. Once its close its time to tweak by hand and feel as you drive the car. Around the cells that appear to have the bucking problems, try to monitor the wideband and make small changes to the VE at those cells to observe what happens. Small changes at a time to dial in trouble spots.

Same with SA. Small changes to dial in spots that are giving you problems.

 

My SA table is less aggressive. Where you are 42 I am 36. As was stated by Orr mine is a more gentle linear rise in SA rather than the hit I see as you move to higher RPM/MAP.

Orr I thought to reduce bucking one would reduce timing? That is what I did and it seemed to work but not a total fix for me. Only bucking I have is when I return home on warm engine, I drive through condo subdivision in 1st gear with no load at 10 mph and I feel buck. Going over 10 reduces it and shiftin to 2nd reduces it greatly.

SLR: I have alum heads at about 10.0/1 CR.

 

RON, I'm the same 10 to 1
Below is what I did with the SA table. I focused more from 70kpa and down. Tighten things up a bit and I guess I'll try it and see what happens.

 

May be right on this, but abit of timing increase for me seemed to stabilize the low low rpm range. It certainly helped stabilize idle. With my 401, i have a full manual valve body in the trans so i hold first gear alot. I did have the bucking you describe at low rpm. For me it was more of a VE issue, but a smooth timing table helped some as well. Timing changes air fuel ratio to some degree. Where small VE changes alone did not help smooth out the fuel curve, the timing did. With 80 lb injectors, for me a small change in VE had a larger scale difference in fuel delivery, so i used abit of timing here and there to dial in driveability.

My overall timing for my 401 is abit less than whats posted here. Most of my general driving cells are 33-35 deg. Any more and I get knock retard of 1-2 deg so I backed off. Car drives fine, but exhaust is hot. Still needs tuning i'm sure. My 383 with MAF system I used 35-36 deg in most of the driving cells/loads. Worked ok but i never played with it to see if more or less worked better. That motor was either at idle or low low cruise rpm or WOT most of its life

 

As someone once said "give it what it wants".

 

So I able to play with this for a bit today.

If I want more fuel in a cell (I use the graph) would I pull my points up? I'm under the impression that blue is richer....moving to red would be leaner?

 

if you R click on the intersection of the x/y axis it will show you current values in a popup box. So B4 you make change do so and again after and you will see change.

 

If you use VE, the higher VE value is MORE fuel. On the graph, pick the point and raise it UP. It should make the value larger. I do believe the chart displays red for higher values and blue for low, but doesnt necessarily mean rich or lean, because at peak torque rpm at WOT you should see your highest VE in the entire table since thats where most air flow is. That would normally show red compared to a cell like 1000 rpm idle VE.

 

Thank you.
That would explain why I'm just getting leaner and leaner. thats why I guess I shouldn't make assumptions.

Took it for another ride after the first SA change. No Good. What I've done now is I arranged all my cells from 60 Kpa to the left to range from 24 to 36.
Went into my datalog and am picking out a couple of cells I'll add some fuel to and try it again.

 

Keep in mind when you are in CL you are not lean nor rich. You are at stoich assuming BLM is not maxed out. But the VE table needs to be accurate as other routines are based on its accuracy.

 

Update for you guys..
Figured out I SUCK at this!!!...lol

Been working on one .bin. Been ok but getting lean in various spots. So I decide to drive it to the post office 15 min ride. Also decide to do a BLM learn just to see. After the drive stopped for a coffee. Flashed the new .bin in. After a few min's started it up. Surged real bad. Sometimes it takes a min. So I let it catch up put it in gear and stalls immediatly. did this 4 times in a row.

Turn the car off. Reloaded the .bin thats been working. Same thing! 3 more times. Loaded even an older .bin. Finally it ran and I could put it in gear.

Got home and made a few minor changes to the .bin
My idle in N and D both run around 55kpa / 800 rpm. So I focused on that Kpa and RPM range of 700-900 RPM. Seemed to get it so it sounded smoother in that area.

Now. INT is 128 / BLM 128... WB reads 16-17 ?? Be honest with me am I focusing on this WB to much? I'm wondering if I am.

What possiblies should I look into about that stalling issue?

In my VE low table 40 kpa-70 and RPM 400 to 1000 I always end up with this huge u shaped dip there.
thanks

 

Do I have a bad sensor?
Compare narrow band to WB
heated 02 is just a couple of months old

 

Something is wrong with the O2 readings. I also noted that the IAC is rather high. And that you are running a good deal of SA. Maybe the WB readings are closer to reality and the engine is struggling to run.

Would explain the need for additional SA and the resultant high IAC.

Carefully pull the NB O2 sensor out and look for a white fluffy coating on any portion of it. That is a sign of silicone poisoning. Which causes the sensor to report rich. Which in turn drives the INT/BLM down, which in turn causes the engine to lean out.

If the WB is in the other pipe (duals), also check for the possibility of exhaust leaks. It does the opposite as the O2 sensor will respond to the excess air and report lean.

RBob.

 

Ok, so its not just me.

I wondered about the IAC counts as well. My throttle stop screw isn't even touching the throttle linkage and my counts won't get any lower than say 40.
Bad IAC?

I'm going to remove the o2 an see what it looks like. I've already ordered a replacement bosch wb sensor.

 

I pulled the heated o2 sensor. No sign of silicone poisoning. There was no white nor was there any black. More of just a brass color.

I'm going to pull the WB as well and think I may just replace the IAC as well.

What do you think?

 

You need to open up the throttle to get counts down. Iac is opening too much because the throttle is closed to much. For an 800 rpm idle you need to set bin to 800 then set min idle on the throttlebody screw. You do that by trying to start car with iac closed and disconnected from ecm. Turn screw to open blades til your idle is around 700 750 rpm. Then shutdown and reconnect iac. Restart car and the iac should read lower provided that the tune is spot on which it may not be with a rather lean idle air fuel. Its a back and forth thing with tuning

 

mmmmm.. I bought a new IAC
Tried to set the idle as you stated. With the IAC disconnected, TB blades all the way closed best idle I get is 1400-1500. Nothing lower. Naturally open the blades a bit and higher idle.
Even though I have all new vac lines wonder if I have a leak?..... Put a guage on the plenum and am getting 19hg. Thats pretty good vac though. Where should I start looking?
or should I break out a propane torch?

 

What's your base timing set at? 1500 rpm is way high for closed throttle. You sure the iac was all the way closed before disconnecting?

 

Base timing is 6*BTDC, I'm assuming it was.. the same thing happened to me the other night with the old IAC
Is there a way to make it close all the way to be sure?
With my blades shut the way they are my idle should be in the 400 range.

 

Do you by chance have your BLM and INT still locked at 128 from previously doing WB VE Learns? That would help explain the the narrow band and wide band reading so differently.

 

No they aren't but thanks for th suggestion.

This just gets more and more interesting. Figured out out to jump the iacs to completely close it. Started the car, IAC disconnected, throttle stop screw not even touching the linkage. Idle dropped to 1200.. something is wrong.

Also noticed this what I thought was oily film on passenger valve cover. Never saw that before. Look up at the hood the two areas that would be located over the supply and return gas line connections also have this film. So I look at the gas line connections. A little wet but no soaked. Wiped them off and put 50 psi to it, can't see any leaks. distributor cap sides... oily film. Underneath dry. Soaked up the film onto a rag and tried to burn it. nothing.. didn't catch fire.

This just keeps getting better. Something is off. Maybe I put the engine under load and see if something sprays up.

But that won't solve this idle problem. Have to laugh my car used to be reliable!...lol


tonight I out of curiousity I did pull number 8 sparkplug. Looked good except it did have some residual carbon buildup on it.