Originally Posted by L98GTA87

Off subject of tuning but are you running the correct spark plugs for the vortec heads? They have a longer reach into the combustion chamber vs the standard sbc plugs.

Vortec plug on the left in picture.

Originally Posted by soarestransam

Hey corv3tt3 so i used that bin f-3000 was i only suppose to use the sa table and main table and load that into the current one im using or totally start over with that one cause if so then i messed up i ended up using the f-3000 bin and changing most of the tables

Originally Posted by soarestransam

I would like to run vortec plug but i can't cause I'm using headers with the build and with a standard plug the plug wire literally sits right on the header pipes

Originally Posted by CORV3TT3

Just copy the tables over for the SA.



If for some reason you ever overwrote things you should not have, use the BIN compare tool in tuner pro with a BIN that you previously created for a VE learn and saved off to the side to copy things back in.

I always have a few versions of a BIN in case I need to roll back to a previous setting.

Originally Posted by CORV3TT3

Are you able to use wires with 90* angle connectors? Sounds like a straight wire connector might be your problem.

FWIW- I usually buy universal wire sets and then cut & crimp to fit. Universal sets sometimes have both plug ends- straight and 90*.

Originally Posted by L98GTA87

How's this coming along for you? Closely following as I have a similar engine setup and trans.

Originally Posted by soarestransam

Coming along ok need to get new plugs since I'm using the wrong ones lol had accel plugs in, instead of the ones specifically for vortec heads but I should have them this weekend hopefully if not next weekend but I redid a new bin file from the info the guys in this thread told me hope it will smooth out once it runs I'll do the ve learns and see if it improves

Originally Posted by L98GTA87

Those plugs are important. I remember seeing someone posted they had issues for many years and ultimately their problem was using the standard plugs on vortec heads. Definitely update on how she's running when you get that bin flashed and the plugs in.

Originally Posted by soarestransam

ok so update for everyone I got a single vortec plug ac delco 41993 to test fit to see if any plug wires would rub up on the flowtech shorty headers and come to find out im in the clear so Im gonna get the rest prob this week or next week money is tight as usual once I have all of them ill install and update u guys on further progress of the whole ebl tuning

Originally Posted by soarestransam

Well got the vortec spark plugs installed them put everything back together flashed in the different bin program with small calibrations matched the bpc vs vac table to the ebl utility set timing to 8 degrees btdc went to start it up and it still didn't want to start up.

Another thing I did a compression test while old plugs were out and I got a reading of about 150 psi on all cylinders this was with motor cold throttle wide open is this ok or did I melt something inside now the motor did run a couple months ago I'm at a lost on this any input would help

Originally Posted by soarestransam

Ok update for everyone I have decided to leave the ebl flash and just go back to tpi set up I have a spare harness that I'm gonna install go back maf and go back to a standard ecm I would like to thank everybody on trying to help out but this just isn't for me so come spring time I'll start tackling the tear down thanks for the advice and help but with the ebl I don't see myself getting it running anytime soon

Originally Posted by Street Lethal

Wish you lived closer to me, would have helped you getting it all sorted out...

Best of luck with the new direction you're going in.

Originally Posted by antman89iroc

Was this with the stock ecm or the EBL? If you still want to run the EBL you gotta repin the harness and add the map sensor. Along with all the stuff SL mentioned.

If you are planning to run the stock ecm then how are you tuning? Chip burn and swap?

Originally Posted by soarestransam

This was with the stock ecm i got with the car so a 350 L98 auto chip I plan on using the ebl again just want to see if it will run somewhat decent on the stock chip for now then I'll attempt to repin the ecm harness to use the ebl again

Originally Posted by Ronny

When I broke two rocker arms this past season my friend used a dial indicator on #1 cylinder to determine if valve timing was off. I believe you do same to determine if the balancer slipped or if the distributor is not installed correctly. Not uncommon to be 180 degrees off. User error.

Originally Posted by soarestransam

Originally Posted by CORV3TT3

At the risk of sounding crude... I think there is a gap between expectations, tenacity, and positive results.

GM engineers spend hundreds of hours on a tune. I remember reading in the book "All Corvettes Are Red"- the story of the C5 Vette- some of the trips out on snow and ice tuning the traction control didn't go as planned. Or even that the initial crash tests proved the chassis was too rigid and it killed the dummies (lack of crumple zones).

My point is this stuff- tuning- takes time. The more non-stock your car... the longer it will take.

When you take it to a shop, you'll eat a tow and then likely they will replace the ECM with another and throw EBL in the trash. If you want it to leave the shop running well... most shops won't likely mess with it because their business model is around efficiency and unless they are familiar with EBL- they won't have time to sit and play with it as long as you would.

This is almost an art.

If you look around at TGO and the tuning community here- some of the guys here you'll see are mechanics, racers, etc. The rest of us folks just know enough to be dangerous and to ask others for help.

I've been working on my tune for about a year and a half. I was also new to tuning. Sure- I had my SA table down in about the first six months... had bad IACs, a bad WB connector, needed a VAFPR, and a whole host of other things... but it has always been that: a learning journey. I'm working on small things nowadays. Like tweaks to AE. I'm pretty comfortable that I have most of it sorted out

I've been perplexed by all kinds of stuff. I've asked a load of questions. It's a lot of trial and error. Set up a BIN... datalog it... read data to confirm problems... make adjustments... revert back if I need it.

Tenacity- you need tenacity to get the tune where you want it. Tuning is NOT going to be an overnight epiphany for anyone who is new to it. Sure... you could get a decent burn from someone... or maybe not. It may run- but it might be too lean in PE mode- who knows. When you can't validate with data logging how do you know how good a mail order tune is? I'm not saying anything bad about tuners- there are some folks who are really good. What I am saying is that they will take their best guess from what they know and tools available- and will send you a chip.

With EBL- you can ALWAYS tweak the tune to your needs. And you can validate it with data (WUD). You can expand what it monitors (ADC channels).

And while you aren't seeing results yet- you are clearly getting frustrated. This isn't easy for anyone who hasn't done it before.

If anything, if you are still taking it to a shop... have the shop check to validate or set you base timing. If it holds a decent idle- leave the EBL in the car and limp it home. Everything starts with your basic mechanical settings. Then... move to VE learns and adjust it from there. You have a non-stock combination and the more non-stock it is... the more work you'll have ahead of you to tune it. There's only so much a stock tune can compensate for before you need to adjust things.

I know this wasn't what you wanted to hear.

But if you stick it out and keep at it... YOU WILL EVENTUALLY FIGURE IT OUT.

Don't let the challenges beat you- beat the challenges.

Originally Posted by antman89iroc

Mechanical/engine condition and component issues make tuning difficult. It all has to be right -first. I tuned for months before I figured out the plugs I was using were a tic too cold and due to my combo I was trying to run a little too rich and after a week or so of "progress" it would go south because the plug would start to foul. I would chase it for another week, or month until starting over. Then the weather changes and exposes some short cut I took and I end up starting over again. I also had to learn what to expect and what was acceptable for my combo. I tuned my prior engine for 2-3 years before building this engine and tuned it for about a year before going with the EBL. Now I have a little over a year tuning it and I have only recently been driving a certain tune for more than a day or two. My point is it does take commitment if I want good results. It's no different that carbs and distributors. There are lots of details with them too. It's not just jets but pump cams, air bleeds, float levels etc. But when I do start my EFI in the cold it runs with no operator input and runs consistent. In the end the EFI and EBL is worth the effort. But if you don't have patience, aptitude and stick with it you can't tune either one.

Originally Posted by Street Lethal

The balancer did not slip, not to mention it is easy to determine if it did simply by looking at the keyway in relation to the timing mark. He had the engine running with the EBL, and he did something physically to alter the timing by hand to make it not start anymore. He even asked about timing again because he seems a little confused by it a few posts up, which was the post I quoted. This is why RBob even stopped responding because Craig is not elaborating on what he did. I too am trying to understand what he is doing, but his explanations are completely off. See posts 32, 33 and 37, then read what I quoted a few posts up...;

This is with the EBL installed;

Post 32 (Craig)



Post 33 (RBob)



Post 37 (RBob)



Post 77 (Craig)


He needs to clarify what he is doing.

Originally Posted by Street Lethal

I'm trying very hard to understand your explanation, but I need clarification if possible. Are you saying that you will time the balancer at 6* BTDC with the EST disconnected, and then when you reconnect the EST the timing shows a lot more? That is normal if this is the case. The reason why I am asking for clarification is because the way you are trying to explain it, it sounds like you are saying that you set the timing to 6* BTDC, but then after you tighten the distributor, the timing is showing a lot more when you check it again immediately afterward with the EST still disconnected. If this is the case, then the distributor is too loose when you are setting base timing, and when you let go to tighten it down, it is moving away from your setting...

Bottom line is this, if you set your base timing to 6* BTDC with the EST disconnected, tighten your distributor down properly, then check your timing again to confirm it still says 6* BTDC, then plug in your EST bypass, and your timing will now read closer to 20* BTDC. Normal.

Or, if you set your timing to 6* BTDC with the EST disconnected, tighten down your distributor, but now the timing is reading much higher when you check it again to confirm 6* BTDC before reconnecting the EST bypass, then, obviously the distributor is moving on its own after you let go of it to tighten it down. If this is the case, then you need to loosen the distributor "just enough" to turn in with a little force when you set base timing, not completely loose or it will move on its' own.

Also, you really need to post a bin and a datalog when the EBL is installed, regardless if it starts or not.

Originally Posted by soarestransam

Yes all timing I'm doing is with the est by pass disconnected trying to figure out initial/base timing before letting the ecm do it

Originally Posted by Street Lethal

The balancer did not slip,

Originally Posted by antman89iroc

You're right, I guess it's possible but I haven't ever heard of this happening. I have seen a balancer that came apart and one where the outer ring came off the inner hub but I can't say I have seen one "move one way or the other" and still appear in tact. I should have been more careful in my statement.

Originally Posted by soarestransam

...flash in the vortec bin with the configurations...

Originally Posted by soarestransam

Ok so been playing around tonight on the ebl I repinned the harness correctly got the power I need to the tps iac and map it's all showing correctly on the ebl wud went into tuner pro set the bpc vs vac like the utility told me to set the sa initial to 6 degrees thinking it was all set to start go into wud flash in the vortec bin with the configurations try starting and nothing just cranks but doesn't run like wtf is wrong now it ran with the stock ecm stock harness

All help would be great if I can't figure this out this time I'm officially done with this ebl setup and will get a refund for it and just send the stock prom out to get burned

Originally Posted by antman89iroc

You've come this far, don't let it get the best of you. There is still some work to do before it will start. There are some settings like injector size, EGR and other "hard settings" that will need to match your particular setup. Open the file "EBL Information". It's on your hard drive in the folder created when you loaded the program in your laptop. Go through all the items on that list. I would recommend following Bob's advice by choosing a bin the CLOSELY MATCHES your setup. It won't be exact but close. If you have vortec heads you could copy and paste ONLY the SA tables from a vortec bin into the bin you have chosen.

And please, I understand how frustrating it can be, but jumping to wanting your money back or saying the product isn't good won't help you one bit. The 100% best help on this planet is Bob and I suggest you keep him on your side. You get more flies with honey than vinegar you know. He will help you but about 10,000 people want his help so you have to demonstrate that you are "THINKING" about YOUR setup and have the patience and aptitude to get there. Once you do that he will go to great lengths. One more thing, I was right where you are now in the beginning. About 8 out of 10 of the questions I asked Bob (and others) I later found the answer plainly furnished in one of the documents he provided or on the web site. I can only share my experience but with my non-stock engine I am glad I stuck with it. The EBL runs much better and has a lot more control than my MAF setup ever did. But it took some work to get there.

Read the EBL documents on your computer. Then check the web site. Once you get it running the web site has a good tutorial on tuning and what to look for. It's going to all run together in your head for a while but be patient grass hopper. Once you get to about 50% you will be able to put together a better tune than anyone can do for you through the mail. They simply don't have enough information to make a good tune for a non-stock combo without running the car themselves or at least looking at a datalog and having an extensive list of your exact combo. You can do this if you set your mind to it.

Originally Posted by soarestransam

Ok so I'm using the bin 3000.6 5.7 tpi stick bin followed the steps on adding the bpc vs vac which I did off the wud utility next I did the setting timing in the bin which is 6 degrees btdc initial sa and idle state sa i left at 20.18 changed the airflow displacement to a 355 ci which my small block is so that is good changed the cylinder count to 8 which on the editor table would be 0 so I put that in and saved it all in all the steps on the web site I did all of it and still no engine running I really wish someone can just make this bin for me so I can stop getting upset about this

Originally Posted by RBob

In the 3006 BIN the initial SA should have already been at 6* BTDC (5.98* to be exact). Same for the cylinder count, should have already been set to 0 for an 8 cylinder. If these needed to be changed, then either the wrong BIN was read into TunerPro or the wrong XDF file is being used.

Changing the bpc vs vac is a given as that is the engine displacement and injector flow rate. Actually, that is likely the only change I'd initially make.

You can also change the PromID to another value. This value is displayed on the WUD (that is all that it is used for). Can then check the value on the WUD after flashing in the BIN. They should match, if not then either didn't save the BIN or the wrong BIN was flashed in.

Another item to check for is the SES/CEL blink at key-on, engine-off. That is, it should turn on briefly, blink off, then turn on solid. Can repeat the test after at least 10 seconds of key-off. This verifies that the ECM is running and not in limp mode. If no blink off or the SES/CEL flashes then the ECM is in limp mode (not running from the BIN).

These are easy checks that can be made quickly. Note that if the ECM is in limp mode, don't bother trying to start the engine, fix the limp mode first.



OK, two things to try. First, hold the go-pedal on the floor while cranking. That is a clear flood mode, so if the fueling is rich that will help get the engine started.

On the opposite side, spray some starter fluid into the intake and try starting the engine. If the fueling is lean that will help get the engine going.

Once running keep it running to get it up to temperature. Even if you need to feather the go-pedal.

Be sure to data log while doing this as even if the engine doesn't start it can be helpful.

RBob.

Originally Posted by soarestransam

Originally Posted by soarestransam