Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.
09-11-2018, 07:12 PM
#52
Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.
Yesterday took the truck to the dyno and had a quick and dirty tune, still into ping today- had wifey with me yesterday and really didn't test the new tune. Now that I look at the timing map- cannot say I'm really happy.
09-12-2018, 08:58 AM
#53
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Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.
Need to give the engine what it wants. If that requires less spark advance to prevent ping, then it needs to be done.
RBob.
RBob.
09-12-2018, 09:19 AM
#54
Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.
Still not happy with that ve table and if i understand all the timing adders correct you have say 16.88 deg at 4000 plus 9.8 for iat/cts compensation, plus 3.16 for pe mode advance. Roughly 30 deg total. That aint bad and should be doable
your ve tune at 90 kpa is more fuel in that 3600+ range than your 100 kpa and then drops alot in 80 kpa column then jumps up again at 70 kpa. 70 should be less than 80 and 90 be less than 100. Go in there open up the 3d graph and you’ll see the peaks and valleys. Manually grab points and move them so it is smooth across the table, values get higher with rpm generally and higher with increasing kpa numbers. Peak torque rpm generally has a higher ve number so the ve table graph will peak around that then dip alightly after that rpm then rise to peak hp rpm if it revs high enough
your ve tune at 90 kpa is more fuel in that 3600+ range than your 100 kpa and then drops alot in 80 kpa column then jumps up again at 70 kpa. 70 should be less than 80 and 90 be less than 100. Go in there open up the 3d graph and you’ll see the peaks and valleys. Manually grab points and move them so it is smooth across the table, values get higher with rpm generally and higher with increasing kpa numbers. Peak torque rpm generally has a higher ve number so the ve table graph will peak around that then dip alightly after that rpm then rise to peak hp rpm if it revs high enough
09-12-2018, 09:42 AM
#55
Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.
Thanks for the replies.
Been thinking about this- losing sleep actually.
1/ I'm at work- no access to tune. Tuner did say the VE table needed more work and that the VE learn function worked very well and I could finish things off- I gave him 3hrs.
2/ Open loop commanded AFR- is this the main lookup for EBL when learning in VE? There is quite a difference between any of Robs bins, HPS tune and this latest- if this is correct then I think the engine is running lean- he is targeting 14.7 almost everywhere, it's still trying to pull fuel out and ping is worse.
3/ This was a stab at buying a workable tune- doesn't seem to have worked out (again) and looks like I should have taken earlier advice and spend some time with an unmolested starter tune.
4/ I have several researched quotes I kept on the Eliminator heads where they seem to like 28-34 deg, but most people are tuning for supreme fuel.
5/ Doing the math- $15/tank for 89 oct I can live with.
6/ I've also heard that a tune may be ok for one individual but another driver brings out the worst bugs.
Been thinking about this- losing sleep actually.
1/ I'm at work- no access to tune. Tuner did say the VE table needed more work and that the VE learn function worked very well and I could finish things off- I gave him 3hrs.
2/ Open loop commanded AFR- is this the main lookup for EBL when learning in VE? There is quite a difference between any of Robs bins, HPS tune and this latest- if this is correct then I think the engine is running lean- he is targeting 14.7 almost everywhere, it's still trying to pull fuel out and ping is worse.
3/ This was a stab at buying a workable tune- doesn't seem to have worked out (again) and looks like I should have taken earlier advice and spend some time with an unmolested starter tune.
4/ I have several researched quotes I kept on the Eliminator heads where they seem to like 28-34 deg, but most people are tuning for supreme fuel.
5/ Doing the math- $15/tank for 89 oct I can live with.
6/ I've also heard that a tune may be ok for one individual but another driver brings out the worst bugs.
09-12-2018, 09:51 AM
#56
Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.
It may be close enough now to work with but i would just manually smooth it and try again
cuz the lower end of the ve table seems ok, still some spots i would change but much better looking than the table cells above 3600 rpm
timing table is smooth enough just needs tweaked
cuz the lower end of the ve table seems ok, still some spots i would change but much better looking than the table cells above 3600 rpm
timing table is smooth enough just needs tweaked
09-12-2018, 11:53 AM
#57
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Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.
The coolant compensation and CTS/IAT compensation tables have a bias value. Both are currently set to 9.8°. So any value in the compensation tables of 9.8° doesn't affect the spark timing. A value lower then that reduces the SA, a value higher adds to the SA.
The easiest (and best) way to check the final SA is from viewing the log file. The SA value is the 'at-crank' timing.
RBob.
Last edited by RBob; 09-12-2018 at 11:59 AM.
09-12-2018, 11:58 AM
#58
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Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.
Thanks for the replies.
2/ Open loop commanded AFR- is this the main lookup for EBL when learning in VE? There is quite a difference between any of Robs bins, HPS tune and this latest- if this is correct then I think the engine is running lean- he is targeting 14.7 almost everywhere, it's still trying to pull fuel out and ping is worse.
2/ Open loop commanded AFR- is this the main lookup for EBL when learning in VE? There is quite a difference between any of Robs bins, HPS tune and this latest- if this is correct then I think the engine is running lean- he is targeting 14.7 almost everywhere, it's still trying to pull fuel out and ping is worse.
Note that the AFR of 14.7 is the most knock prone AFR there is. Richer or leaner is less prone to detonation.
RBob.
09-12-2018, 12:05 PM
#59
Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.
The coolant compensation and CTS/IAT compensation tables have a bias value. Both are currently set to 9.8°. So any value in the compensation tables of 9.8° doesn't affect the spark timing. A value lower then that reduces the SA, a value higher adds to the SA.
The easiest (and best) way to check the final SA is from viewing the log file. The SA value is the 'at-crank' timing.
RBob.
or set bias to 0 in tune scalars?
Last edited by Orr89RocZ; 09-12-2018 at 12:13 PM.
09-12-2018, 12:12 PM
#60
Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.
If doing VE learns in open loop with a WB, yes, it compares the commanded AFR to the WB reported AFR. The open loop AFR table value is also compensated by the " Open Loop - AFR Multiplier vs CTS " table. But by the time the engine is up to temperature it doesn't affect the commanded AFR.
Note that the AFR of 14.7 is the most knock prone AFR there is. Richer or leaner is less prone to detonation.
RBob.
Note that the AFR of 14.7 is the most knock prone AFR there is. Richer or leaner is less prone to detonation.
RBob.
Your table is 14.7 mostly and 11.5 at 0-10 kpa. Idk why its that rich at near perfect vacuum but pe mode afr is 12.0 so i assume in wot it will reference pe mode afr for the wideband?
In either case i still would target abit richer since you are on low octane and taper it to mid high 13’s afr at 80 kpa
09-12-2018, 12:27 PM
#61
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Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.
RBob.
09-12-2018, 12:32 PM
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Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.
In PE mode the code compares the open loop commanded AFR to the PE commanded AFR and uses the one that is richer. This helps protect the engine from folks that beat on a cold engine.
RBob.
09-12-2018, 04:09 PM
#64
Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.
EBL does have a stoich definition- should this be entered as 14.2 in this case?
Robert, would you say the supplied open loop cafr table for the 3005/3000 bin is much better balanced? But I see some 15.8 in the mix as well...? I am mindful that you say give it what it wants- sure am finding out what it doesn't like. HorsePower Solutions bin added for compare of open loop cafr.
Also Intial SA was changed to 8deg- fires off much better (still needs some refinement).
I told buddy that the truck runs on the NB and only learns on the WB- I think that is why he put 14.7 mostly everywhere.
Robert, would you say the supplied open loop cafr table for the 3005/3000 bin is much better balanced? But I see some 15.8 in the mix as well...? I am mindful that you say give it what it wants- sure am finding out what it doesn't like. HorsePower Solutions bin added for compare of open loop cafr.
Also Intial SA was changed to 8deg- fires off much better (still needs some refinement).
I told buddy that the truck runs on the NB and only learns on the WB- I think that is why he put 14.7 mostly everywhere.
Last edited by dfarr67; 09-12-2018 at 06:25 PM.
09-12-2018, 06:19 PM
#65
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Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.
If barometric is 100 KPa, yes, 80 KPa vacuum is 20 KPa MAP. The ECM calculates vacuum by subtracting the current MAP from the current barometric value. The MAP KPa, baro KPa and vacuum KPa are all listed in a dump of the of log file. It may seem as though it is tricky to difficult to tune an EBL system.
But 99%+ of this is documented in the Calibration Help file.
RBob.
But 99%+ of this is documented in the Calibration Help file.
RBob.
09-12-2018, 06:25 PM
#66
Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.
If barometric is 100 KPa, yes, 80 KPa vacuum is 20 KPa MAP. The ECM calculates vacuum by subtracting the current MAP from the current barometric value. The MAP KPa, baro KPa and vacuum KPa are all listed in a dump of the of log file. It may seem as though it is tricky to difficult to tune an EBL system.
But 99%+ of this is documented in the Calibration Help file.
RBob.
But 99%+ of this is documented in the Calibration Help file.
RBob.
carry on
09-12-2018, 08:49 PM
#67
Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.
Weather permitting (snow here) will try this out tomorrow.
Changed:
-alot
-open loop cafr's but left standard stoich at 14.7
-left PE for now and will relearn in
-left SA and see how things go
- didn't clean sheet the bin but did go through every line (not that I understood things 100%) but looking for changes to the iron vortec TPI 3000.bin reference.
Shell 91, (or V-Power 93) and most of the other brand "premium" gasolines do not have ethanol. The Canadian regulation requires 10% ethanol average in its fuel, by volume sold. So your lowest tier (usually 87 octane) will have 10% to 15% ethanol in it.
Changed:
-alot
-open loop cafr's but left standard stoich at 14.7
-left PE for now and will relearn in
-left SA and see how things go
- didn't clean sheet the bin but did go through every line (not that I understood things 100%) but looking for changes to the iron vortec TPI 3000.bin reference.
Shell 91, (or V-Power 93) and most of the other brand "premium" gasolines do not have ethanol. The Canadian regulation requires 10% ethanol average in its fuel, by volume sold. So your lowest tier (usually 87 octane) will have 10% to 15% ethanol in it.
Last edited by dfarr67; 09-12-2018 at 09:51 PM.
09-12-2018, 09:55 PM
#69
Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.
Brought up a few dips- perhaps should do more. Even though I am struggling here and should leave other things alone- I am interested in compensating for ethanol, haven't really thought about that aspect. For the open loop table globally -0.5 of of cafr lets see what happens.
09-13-2018, 08:25 PM
#71
Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.
Not sure which way this tune is going, had a hour today to play with it, didn't smooth much after learns, wanted to get in a closed loop log to look at. At the very least I'm not hearing ping like before- but the log shows it's there even after taking out PE SA.
09-14-2018, 07:37 AM
#72
Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.
That seems strange to me. Ve table now looks smooth so just watch air fuel and shift the cells around in any spot that is too lean or rich.
2600 rpm 75 kpa it starts to pull 1 deg. Its only 22-23 deg there and low 14.2 afr. That seems fine idk why it would pull timing
as you go higher in rpm it goes lean. 3000 is high 14’s to 15:1. 3800 15.1-15.2:1. I would richen this area up to 13.8-14.0. I would have expected it to take more timing there tho than 22-25 deg. Very odd
2600 rpm 75 kpa it starts to pull 1 deg. Its only 22-23 deg there and low 14.2 afr. That seems fine idk why it would pull timing
as you go higher in rpm it goes lean. 3000 is high 14’s to 15:1. 3800 15.1-15.2:1. I would richen this area up to 13.8-14.0. I would have expected it to take more timing there tho than 22-25 deg. Very odd
09-14-2018, 09:25 AM
#73
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Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.
By the way, is "ping issue" an audible sound or is this knock counts? I ask because I get some counts at high RPM in 1st gear only that don't reappear in other gears. Timing and fuel does not make it go away. I attribute it to other "noise" likely from trans. Point is to determine if knock is truly occurring or if it may be something else.
Now if you can hear pinging then it's probably pinging.
09-14-2018, 09:40 AM
#74
Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.
So far this has been very audible- I'm relying on the table to show exactly where- but they have been at heavy throttle (not confident to go 100% yet) starting around 2700rpm. When richened, things have quietened down- but last log shows it's still there. Engine is noisy with roller cam and rockers- sensor has been dumbed down with 90deg fitting and ESC module is the preferred type.
This image is not mine- it was to prove a point about this TPI intake type and timing issues in specific areas.
This image is not mine- it was to prove a point about this TPI intake type and timing issues in specific areas.
sometimes the long runner manifolds need a substantial dip right at max torque where the runners are working the most efficient and just dumping in airflow then you can ramp it straight back in as the flow tapers off
Last edited by dfarr67; 09-14-2018 at 09:48 AM.
09-15-2018, 09:39 AM
#75
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Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.
I ask because I get some counts at high RPM in 1st gear only that don't reappear in other gears. Timing and fuel does not make it go away. I attribute it to other "noise" likely from trans. Point is to determine if knock is truly occurring or if it may be something else.
RBob.
09-16-2018, 01:37 PM
#76
Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.
That seems strange to me. Ve table now looks smooth so just watch air fuel and shift the cells around in any spot that is too lean or rich.
2600 rpm 75 kpa it starts to pull 1 deg. Its only 22-23 deg there and low 14.2 afr. That seems fine idk why it would pull timing
as you go higher in rpm it goes lean. 3000 is high 14’s to 15:1. 3800 15.1-15.2:1. I would richen this area up to 13.8-14.0. I would have expected it to take more timing there tho than 22-25 deg. Very odd
2600 rpm 75 kpa it starts to pull 1 deg. Its only 22-23 deg there and low 14.2 afr. That seems fine idk why it would pull timing
as you go higher in rpm it goes lean. 3000 is high 14’s to 15:1. 3800 15.1-15.2:1. I would richen this area up to 13.8-14.0. I would have expected it to take more timing there tho than 22-25 deg. Very odd
09-16-2018, 06:47 PM
#77
Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.
OK just got back. 1 log is a cold start- running rich. 2 log is after some learns, still a ping although getting better, not sure if lean or timing. Icurous to get the VE squared away and try that 3004 SA.
09-13-2020, 08:27 PM
#78
Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.
Back for more punishment guys.
The truck has been parked for some time and have done a major brake upgrade to 2005 Suburban 4 wheel disc, fixed lots of oil leaks, and revamped the PCV system with a Wagner valve and oil catch can as I discovered substantial amount of oil collecting in the plenum- likely didn't help things in the octane dept. So have been poking at various tunes all summer and before I came on here again wanted to present a coherent package. Burnt a plug wire so a NOS Crane set went on and NGK Rutherium plugs. Audible ping is still there around 3600+rpm, truck seems smooth otherwise, I'm learn how to read the Dump Log and was freaked to see some major lean- but looking again it was DFCO, also found that HWy mode was unintentionally turn on. Fuel is 1/4 89-1/4 91-1/2 94 octane (who knows how old the 94 is around here). Intial SA table wa for iron vortecs, but I found one on TG that the guy had a 383/FIRST TPI/36pph injectors that seemed to work for him and was marginally more advanced than what I had planned. Last week as an experiment with the ping, I took out 5deg accross the board and it did clean up most recorded knock but still left one area making noise at 0 deg- may a more agressive SA will help, I'm thinking more fuel too- while learning in VE BPC was initally set to 127 but I hit 100%, now at 135 and reduced VE tables accordingly- initially truck ran very rich, smoothed out with good power and I guess leaned out to where it is now. I've tweaked almost everywhere and PE/SA cut in half in an effort with ping. I want to avoid a dyno tune for this year, have abuse this 383 for some time and plan to finish my conversion to 24X next year. One other issue that bothers me, I have the BLH ESC module (early ESC) mixed with a correct for truck knock sensor- there is a correct knock sensor (350cid vette, ACD 213-325) mine is a ACD 213-324 I believe, been told it'll work and also that they need to match. I tried the oem ESC- marginally worse on the log.
Last edited by dfarr67; 09-13-2020 at 08:40 PM.
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