Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI. - Third Generation F-Body Message Boards


DIY PROM Do It Yourself PROM chip burning help. No PROM begging. No PROMs for sale. No commercial exchange. Not a referral service.

Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 08-16-2018, 09:43 AM   #1  
Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 252

Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.

Running EBL Flash MPFI in a 1989 K1500.
385cid, FIRST TPI, 36pph gen4 Bosch, mild hyd roller Erson, AFR Vortec Eliminator heads, shorty headers, NGK BKR6EIX, 700r4
Just changed to this injector from gen3 34pph and wanted to go a grade lower fuel to 87 octane- previous dyno tune was just OK on 89 octane. Issue is getting audible ping on moderate to heavy throttle around 3600-4000 rpm, 80-95 kpa area, the tuner and myself have pulled timing back and I've run multiple VE learns- things are marginally better but still ping is an issue. I haven't smoothed or added fuel manually to area.
I haven't put a compression tester on as yet maybe today, the pistons are dished, build was spec for 9.5ish- perhaps octone tolerance is an issue?
What has the experience been out there?

One other question about intake track using 3in pipe from diesal filter going around battery, options are limited but I wanted to know when available charge air is lacking?

I can email log, won't let me post.
Attached Thumbnails
Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.-img_1944.jpg  
Attached Files
File Type: bin Payton_2018_9df_007.bin (16.0 KB, 2 views)
File Type: bin Payton_2018_9df_009.bin (16.0 KB, 3 views)
File Type: xls DAVE FARR CUSTOM HYD ROLLER.xls (33.0 KB, 4 views)
dfarr67 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2018, 09:52 AM   #2  
Supreme Member
iTrader: (20)
 
Orr89RocZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Posts: 23,639
Car: 89 Iroc-z
Engine: Twin Turbo 401
Transmission: TH400
Axle/Gears: 4th gen 12 bolt 3.42


Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.

Cant view your bin just yet at work but what is the timing in that area?

what is the air fuel ratio? Skip the ve learns and tune manually. Smooth the table by hand. It likely will want a low timing value and richer fuel in the torque peak area you are in
Orr89RocZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2018, 11:16 AM   #3  
Supreme Member
iTrader: (15)
 
Street Lethal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 9,538
Car: '90 Trans Am GTA
Engine: 305 EBL-P4 w/T76
Transmission: Stalled 700R4


Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dfarr67
the tuner...
Did he start with a TBI bin because your Base/Initial timing is set to "0" in the bin. Whatever your base timing is by hand with the EST disconnected it needs to match that in your bin, so switch that "0" in the bin to whatever the true value is in the SA - Initial SA location in your bins. However if your base timing by hand really is "0" then just leave it, but why would you have it at 0?

Your timing is way too low in that RPM/kPa area, I am seeing between 6* to 10* in the 80-95kPa area at 3000-RPM, and remember that your SA - Idle State is set to 22* at idle, so let that sink in for a second. Your SA - Main Table needs to be redone as well as your Initial timing, cut and paste the L98 SA Main Table for starters. Your BPC- VAC needs to be set to 128 not 151 because you are running a 36# injector at 43.5 fuel pressure, correct? So go into your BPC - BPC vs VAC and replace 151 for 128 on all of them. Now do some VE Learns...

- Rob
Street Lethal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2018, 12:52 PM   #4  
Moderator
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Chasing Electrons
Posts: 17,104
Car: check
Engine: check
Transmission: check


Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.

Log file... Use the EBL Flash WUD to observe and dump log file.

RBob.
Attached Files
File Type: zip 14Aug_log_1.dat.zip (1.29 MB, 3 views)
RBob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2018, 01:00 PM   #5  
Supreme Member
iTrader: (15)
 
Street Lethal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 9,538
Car: '90 Trans Am GTA
Engine: 305 EBL-P4 w/T76
Transmission: Stalled 700R4


Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.

Much easier to see now, thanks Bob.

He's using the wrong bin, dfarr67, start over and upload this bin;

EBL_F_3004.bin

Change your BPC vs VAC to 128, and verify that your base timing is 6* BTDC. If not, then set your SA - Initial SA correctly to match whatever it is...

- Rob
Street Lethal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2018, 02:01 PM   #6  
Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 252

Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.

- Converted over to the latest WUD software last night- still have to migrate various BINS over.
- The BPC should be 126/127 I don't know why it was changed.
- We started with the existing dynoBIN as he knows who did the tune, this is old gear- so most (but not all) are more into LS these days.
- This is a truck application, oe initial timing was 0 deg, I never felt there was an advantage using 6 deg. But it is confirmed set base timing.
- Using FIC supplied offsets here, learning not to trust these too much. https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...-sticky-2.html
dfarr67 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2018, 02:12 PM   #7  
Supreme Member
iTrader: (15)
 
Street Lethal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 9,538
Car: '90 Trans Am GTA
Engine: 305 EBL-P4 w/T76
Transmission: Stalled 700R4


Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.

The O2 correction will continue to correct even if the BPC values are off, you will immediately see this when you compare Injector Duty Cycle with RPM and air flow. Keeping it at 0 degrees Base/Initial is fine, just needed to confirm that is where it was. But yes, your SA Main Spark Map is completely off, it is very low in the upper kPa area, and if your BPC vs VAC fueling is off, you will detonate. Just start over with the correct data, because not only is your fueling and spark advance off in terms of what the EBL is calculating, but other areas as well including AE and PE. A quick Flash of the L98 bin, which is very close to your setup from the getgo, w/the correct BPC values added, will do the trick...

- Rob
Street Lethal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2018, 03:28 PM   #8  
Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 252

Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.

This is good info, I'm not an experienced hand at tuning and tend to leave it for years after (usually paying) getting a decent tune.

I know supplied bins should be conservative- or close to oem, would this mean a supplied TBI/TPI bin would be orientated towards regular 87 fuel?

Other than SA , VE tables and BPC which are copy paste, any reason to totally ditch the current file?
dfarr67 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2018, 03:31 PM   #9  
Supreme Member
iTrader: (20)
 
Orr89RocZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Posts: 23,639
Car: 89 Iroc-z
Engine: Twin Turbo 401
Transmission: TH400
Axle/Gears: 4th gen 12 bolt 3.42


Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.

Stock tpi motors ran ok on 87 but thats part because the engines were mild performance. Yeah they also had less aggressive spark curve but it was a low cylinder pressure engine.

Your motor is way different and may not like 87. I would put 93 in it to start, tune that and then pull few degs timing and try 87. Ease into it
Orr89RocZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2018, 03:35 PM   #10  
Supreme Member
iTrader: (15)
 
Street Lethal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 9,538
Car: '90 Trans Am GTA
Engine: 305 EBL-P4 w/T76
Transmission: Stalled 700R4


Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dfarr67
any reason to totally ditch the current file?
The L98 bins are more oriented around port injection, and have the needed cranking fuel, acceleration enrichment and power enrichment tables that are pretty close to what you're already running. I mean you can copy and paste everything to your current one, but why bother when you need to do your VE Learns all over again anyway...

- Rob
Street Lethal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2018, 03:42 PM   #11  
Supreme Member
iTrader: (15)
 
Street Lethal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 9,538
Car: '90 Trans Am GTA
Engine: 305 EBL-P4 w/T76
Transmission: Stalled 700R4


Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.

Look how far off your timing is off compared to mine, just as an example...

That is why you are pinging at that exact area, and no VE Learn will cure that;

- Rob
Attached Thumbnails
Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.-dfar.png   Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.-dfar-1.png  
Street Lethal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2018, 03:46 PM   #12  
Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 252

Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.

Thank you for the response.

Just to be clear, this truck used to have the Edelbrock MPFI conversion kit for the 7747- would still have it if I had known about EBL at the time- the supplied chip wasn't that great, so the TBI wiring is still intact with four injectors running off of each driver- no reliability issues with EBL port mod and haven't seen a need to modify the harness either.

Anything higher than 92 octane is a little harder to find, was running 89 octane with little issue- but last year it was $1.15/L now with the carbon tax upon us 87 octane is now $1.30L X 120L for a guzzler- tough tax to swallow. Used to live in northern Canada and when you tie yourself into higher end octane- sometimes the fuel sits in the underground tanks for a long time or they lie as to what is going in the tank- either way I got burned a couple times.

Well, right now it starts OK but not perfect- pump shot, converter settings etc- those little things. I understand from your perspective to clean sheet it- it's just a push of a button to try out a complete bin.

Last edited by dfarr67; 08-16-2018 at 04:00 PM.
dfarr67 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2018, 03:58 PM   #13  
Supreme Member
iTrader: (15)
 
Street Lethal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 9,538
Car: '90 Trans Am GTA
Engine: 305 EBL-P4 w/T76
Transmission: Stalled 700R4


Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.

No worries, just get the timing corrected and watch how much harder she pulls. Save your current bin for now, open up a new L98 bin (the one I mentioned above), fix your BPC values, as well as your SA - Initial SA (set it to 0) and Flash it in, do some VE Learns, and I guarantee it will put an enormous smile on your face. Running under 10* of timing from 3000-RPM up is like fighting with both hands tied behind your back. Once it's back to a 28* minimum at 3000-RPM and up, you're gonna be grinning ear to ear, I promise you...

- Rob
Street Lethal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2018, 04:05 PM   #14  
Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 252

Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.

I'm banking on the efficiency of the AFR to return good performance on lower octane. Kind of why after damaging one gen3 injector I stepped up to the gen4 as a better injector.

I think you are right- the truck has never run to its potential, even the 355 vortec version.
dfarr67 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2018, 04:09 PM   #15  
Supreme Member
iTrader: (15)
 
Street Lethal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 9,538
Car: '90 Trans Am GTA
Engine: 305 EBL-P4 w/T76
Transmission: Stalled 700R4


Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.

You will get a feel for it as you go, as every engine is different in terms of needed air/fuel ratio's at idle, part throttle, off idle and wide open throttle. At your static compression level, even running 87 octane, you can run a lot more timing than just 28*, so you're more than safe with an L98 SA Table. The TT-1 wideband is an excellent choice and extremely accurate, I am glad you went with it...

- Rob
Street Lethal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2018, 04:51 PM   #16  
Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 252

Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.

Actually the WB is a https://www.14point7.com/products/sp...a-controller-2
I was using the version one before the TT-1 came out- version 2 replaced a cooked version one that a tuner (to remain unnamed) charged me to repair harness by taking controller out and soldering wires fore and aft together......what a 'tard.
dfarr67 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2018, 08:05 PM   #17  
Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 252

Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Street Lethal View Post
Much easier to see now, thanks Bob.

He's using the wrong bin, dfarr67, start over and upload this bin;

EBL_F_3004.bin

Change your BPC vs VAC to 128, and verify that your base timing is 6* BTDC. If not, then set your SA - Initial SA correctly to match whatever it is...

- Rob
Did you mean bin 3005 (5.7L) 3004 is for 5.0L
dfarr67 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2018, 08:16 PM   #18  
Supreme Member
iTrader: (15)
 
Street Lethal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 9,538
Car: '90 Trans Am GTA
Engine: 305 EBL-P4 w/T76
Transmission: Stalled 700R4


Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dfarr67
Did you mean bin 3005 (5.7L) 3004 is for 5.0L
No, I definitely meant the 3004 bin for you to use. The LB9 (305) bin is a tad more aggressive in the Spark Map than the L98, look at the 100-kPa column and you will see why. Use the 3004 as mentioned, and change your BPC vs VAC and your SA - Initial SA to 0...

- Rob
Street Lethal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2018, 08:26 PM   #19  
Supreme Member
iTrader: (20)
 
Orr89RocZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Posts: 23,639
Car: 89 Iroc-z
Engine: Twin Turbo 401
Transmission: TH400
Axle/Gears: 4th gen 12 bolt 3.42


Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.

I’d be alittle more cautious on being aggressive off the bat with AFR vortec heads and a “claimed” 9.5 :1 compression that you sound unsure of on low octane gas. Most afr heads dont need much over 32-34 deg at peak hp and usually less in the torque band. Just my experience
Orr89RocZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2018, 08:30 PM   #20  
Supreme Member
iTrader: (15)
 
Street Lethal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 9,538
Car: '90 Trans Am GTA
Engine: 305 EBL-P4 w/T76
Transmission: Stalled 700R4


Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.

It's not much, he should be okay. The L98 bin has about 18* to 20* between 2400- 4000 RPM in the 90-100kPa column, with the LB9 coming in a tad harder at 27* at 2400-RPM but then settling back down at 22* at 4000-RPM. Both bins cap at 26* after 4800-RPM til peak...

- Rob
Street Lethal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2018, 08:37 PM   #21  
Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 252

Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.

I sound unsure because it seems these days unless I build it myself or service things myself or see with my own eyes----**** happens, I was told there was KB pistons in it, when I had the heads off they were fully dished- I was expecting to see D-dish as I've used them before, maybe they are Silvolite- who knows but they were not flat tops. Not too hard to create a second tune and see seems to be a better runner. Another question regarding the BPC- unless it was an unintentional error could it be buddy trying to manipulate injectors to reach desired BLM? Just wondering why it's out so much.
Something else- O2 sensor location.
Using older Edelbrock TES mid length headers into custom Y-pipe, NB is in relatively stock location (heated) and WB is after Y in front of cat- any cause here to change O2 parameters as in being slow to react?

Last edited by dfarr67; 08-16-2018 at 08:42 PM.
dfarr67 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2018, 08:42 PM   #22  
Supreme Member
iTrader: (20)
 
Orr89RocZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Posts: 23,639
Car: 89 Iroc-z
Engine: Twin Turbo 401
Transmission: TH400
Axle/Gears: 4th gen 12 bolt 3.42


Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.

True that. If its visually dished then it should be ok. It could be -12 to -16 cc, which should be in the high 9’s to 1. Maybe 10:1. With the long duration it should crank relatively low which is good. Just keep an eye on it and go slow with the tune process
Orr89RocZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2018, 08:43 PM   #23  
Supreme Member
iTrader: (15)
 
Street Lethal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 9,538
Car: '90 Trans Am GTA
Engine: 305 EBL-P4 w/T76
Transmission: Stalled 700R4


Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dfarr67
Another question regarding the BPC- unless it was an unintentional error could it be buddy trying to manipulate injectors to reach desired BLM? Just wondering why it's out so much.
The Utility reflects the value of 151 with either 30-psi of fuel pressure and 36# injectors, or 43.5psi of fuel pressure and 30# injectors. It's possible he either had the fuel pressure wrong, or the injector size. Not sure what he was thinking...

- Rob
Street Lethal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2018, 09:00 PM   #24  
Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 252

Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.

Well a little disappointed with FIC- decent feedback on them, but when buying the injectors- what I expected to receive is a printout of injector flow rates in a matched set and a copy of offsets. I had to ask to get an email with some data. Here again the Bosch part numbers have been molested with- so who really knows the data is what they say it is. I try to do my part......point is tuner repeatedly asked what the injector was out of- I literally received multiple answers. On the other hand- the old injectors were well documented and SouthBay even sent up a replacement.....gratis. Thanks SouthBay. My little rant.
dfarr67 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2018, 07:56 AM   #25  
Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 252

Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.

I'm also wondering if there might be a better choice of plug I should be using?

Sharing a SA plot from Gearhead-
sometimes the long runner manifolds need a substantial dip right at max torque where the runners are working the most efficient and just dumping in airflow then you can ramp it straight back in as the flow tapers off

I've seen this in the HPS 89 octane tune but not as pronounced. Don't know how to post plot only.
Attached Thumbnails
Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.-untitled.jpg   Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.-hpssa.png  
Attached Files
File Type: bin HPS_final_tune.bin (16.0 KB, 1 views)

Last edited by dfarr67; 08-18-2018 at 10:32 AM.
dfarr67 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2018, 08:55 AM   #26  
Supreme Member
iTrader: (20)
 
Orr89RocZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Posts: 23,639
Car: 89 Iroc-z
Engine: Twin Turbo 401
Transmission: TH400
Axle/Gears: 4th gen 12 bolt 3.42


Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.

At peak torque in any mnaifold you have highest cylinder pressure. Long runner tpi tunes for low rpm and high ve in those 2800-3800 rpm ranges which is low rpm and that means more timing critical esp on low octane fuels. Yes its quite common to see lower spark in those areas
Orr89RocZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2018, 09:24 AM   #27  
Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 252

Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.

BTW, I am running the '369' GM ignition module.
dfarr67 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2018, 02:24 PM   #28  
Supreme Member
iTrader: (20)
 
Orr89RocZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Posts: 23,639
Car: 89 Iroc-z
Engine: Twin Turbo 401
Transmission: TH400
Axle/Gears: 4th gen 12 bolt 3.42


Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.

Oh you can save money and buy the base or v power ngk of same heat range. Believe its a bkr6e
Orr89RocZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2018, 03:01 PM   #29  
Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 252

Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.

These are fairly fresh and gapped to 040. Just wondered if the heat range was in the ballpark.
dfarr67 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2018, 06:50 PM   #30  
Supreme Member
iTrader: (20)
 
Orr89RocZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Posts: 23,639
Car: 89 Iroc-z
Engine: Twin Turbo 401
Transmission: TH400
Axle/Gears: 4th gen 12 bolt 3.42


Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.

Yeah its good. May be ok with a 5 actually but 6 should be fine
Orr89RocZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2018, 08:24 AM   #31  
Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 252

Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.

Well, spent yesterday and a chunk of change tuning.
- felt good on the highway and up hills where I spent the rpms- probably really slow taking 1 deg out at a time. Felt OK until I goosed in town and she didn't like that at all- lot of work to do. Starting to think maybe 87 isn't supported. Worst case is to travel on 87 and haul on premium. I haven't looked at anything yet. Tried SA from 3004 and it scared me, so went to the 3005 350 bin. a little better. Very short log.
Attached Files
File Type: bin 2018_5.7TPI_12.bin (16.0 KB, 10 views)
File Type: zip 19Aug_log_1.zip (937.5 KB, 0 views)
File Type: zip 19Aug_log_1a.zip (159.8 KB, 1 views)

Last edited by dfarr67; 08-20-2018 at 09:21 AM.
dfarr67 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2018, 09:12 AM   #32  
Supreme Member
iTrader: (20)
 
Orr89RocZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Posts: 23,639
Car: 89 Iroc-z
Engine: Twin Turbo 401
Transmission: TH400
Axle/Gears: 4th gen 12 bolt 3.42


Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.

What was total commanded timing in the 3000 rpm range? From what i can tell you have 18-19 in the table but pe adder is 3 and iat cts adds 9.8? Total of 32?

second your ve table is horrendous! Smooth that out to look realistic. Thing looks like a earthquake meter
Orr89RocZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2018, 09:58 AM   #33  
Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 252

Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.

I'm at work so no way for me to answer these questions, that is something I would not have changed, but others may have. in the 3004/3005 are they different? If they are, and my values are working against me- I wonder if I should bite the bullet and clean sheet things. I haven't had a chance to mess with VE tables yet.
dfarr67 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2018, 10:12 AM   #34  
Supreme Member
iTrader: (15)
 
Street Lethal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 9,538
Car: '90 Trans Am GTA
Engine: 305 EBL-P4 w/T76
Transmission: Stalled 700R4


Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.

It really depends on your coolant temp to calculate the final SA. I think the main question here now is for you to confirm for everyone reading along if your ping issues were taken care of by fixing the SA Main table. Pinging gone? In the end.the final timing numbers in terms of what you want are up to you. You are definitely under 30* total SA at normal operating temperature though...

- Rob
Street Lethal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2018, 10:47 AM   #35  
Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 252

Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.

No........ping is still there, did 10 flashes taking out 1-2 deg at a time in knock areas (more experienced tuners can likely zero in faster). Things are getting better on highway and hill climbs- I was pleased with power, not working above 4000 rpm yet. Offending areas are 50-85 kpa, 2600-3600 rpm if memory serves. That log around town- I expected something different since things were going well on the highway, from a stop to merge pinged. I guess smooth out VE and just work on knock areas.
dfarr67 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2018, 10:55 AM   #36  
Supreme Member
iTrader: (15)
 
Street Lethal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 9,538
Car: '90 Trans Am GTA
Engine: 305 EBL-P4 w/T76
Transmission: Stalled 700R4


Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dfarr67
No........ping is still there.
Do you literally hear the pinging, or are you going only by what the EBL is telling you? Could be false knock if so. You're going to have to do some trial and error then if you can hear it, see if you can get some 93 octane in your tank and share the results. How was your camshaft installed, straight up?

- Rob
Street Lethal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2018, 11:22 AM   #37  
Supreme Member
iTrader: (20)
 
Orr89RocZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Posts: 23,639
Car: 89 Iroc-z
Engine: Twin Turbo 401
Transmission: TH400
Axle/Gears: 4th gen 12 bolt 3.42


Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.

Fix the fuel curve first before doing anything else. If that was indeed the ve table i saw that was all over the place

proper ve should be smooooooth
Attached Thumbnails
Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.-740696c4-6702-459b-914f  
Orr89RocZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2018, 03:07 PM   #38  
Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 252

Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.

Yeah- engine itself is noisy with famous GM roller lifters, Comp steel ultra roller rockers. Ping is audible. As far as modifying SA tables I'm using what EBL provides for seeing knock report.
I've had false knock in the past and have the knock sensor mounted on 90 deg fitting, also using an early ESC module spec'd by Robert R off carbed application that is less sensitive to knock.
I didn't install cam- installed when engine built- I would assume (*** of u and me) that it straight up. I specified degreeing as well.
Just filled up last night with a fresh tank of 87.

Slow day today- too much time thinking about this. Would it be a benefit to check over a few settings and load 3004/3005 VE and SA tables and do a log in closed loop. It occurs to me the more VE learns I did the more sensitive to ping it got.

Last edited by dfarr67; 08-20-2018 at 04:16 PM.
dfarr67 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2018, 08:37 PM   #39  
Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 252

Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.

So reloaded up the 3005 tune and did a short log in closed loop. Have done two VE learns and the uncorrected bin is shown here, I still have to smooth and add fuel- seems to want 10-12 everywhere. My mistake previously was doing multiple VE learns on top on one another without having a good look at the plot.
I bumped all values by 10 units- was that a good idea?
Attached Thumbnails
Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.-capture1.png  
Attached Files
File Type: bin 2018_5.7_3005_TPI_2.bin (16.0 KB, 0 views)
File Type: zip 20Aug_3005_log.zip (856.5 KB, 0 views)

Last edited by dfarr67; 08-20-2018 at 09:10 PM.
dfarr67 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2018, 06:43 AM   #40  
Supreme Member
iTrader: (20)
 
Orr89RocZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Posts: 23,639
Car: 89 Iroc-z
Engine: Twin Turbo 401
Transmission: TH400
Axle/Gears: 4th gen 12 bolt 3.42


Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.

Yeah give it what it wants. Get air fuel and or blm in line for part throttle stuff
Orr89RocZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2018, 01:48 PM   #41  
Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 252

Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.

Any best guesses what these are from, sold to me by FIC as [email protected], or [email protected] Long body style and 4 or 6 hole cap.
Attached Thumbnails
Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.-bosch36gen4.jpg  
dfarr67 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2018, 02:14 PM   #42  
Supreme Member
iTrader: (20)
 
Orr89RocZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Posts: 23,639
Car: 89 Iroc-z
Engine: Twin Turbo 401
Transmission: TH400
Axle/Gears: 4th gen 12 bolt 3.42


Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.

Kinda look like the typical bosch 42’s that been goin around. I ran them in my 305
Orr89RocZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2018, 03:03 PM   #43  
Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 252

Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.

FIC gave me some data that was converted to voltage offsets, I would prefer to confirm those- a confidence thing. My old Bosch 34's had loads of data on them.
Was your 305 supercharged?
dfarr67 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2018, 03:06 PM   #44  
Supreme Member
iTrader: (20)
 
Orr89RocZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Posts: 23,639
Car: 89 Iroc-z
Engine: Twin Turbo 401
Transmission: TH400
Axle/Gears: 4th gen 12 bolt 3.42


Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.

It was turbo’d but then took that off and drove it na for abit before i sold it
Orr89RocZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2018, 03:08 PM   #45  
Supreme Member
iTrader: (20)
 
Orr89RocZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Posts: 23,639
Car: 89 Iroc-z
Engine: Twin Turbo 401
Transmission: TH400
Axle/Gears: 4th gen 12 bolt 3.42


Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.

Then again you have double o ring so is that an adapter on it? Is it a shorty ls3 style injector with a spacer?
Orr89RocZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2018, 03:45 PM   #46  
Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 252

Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.

Loong story- I have done injectors three/four times on different long tube intakes, never had an issue. Current set up the Bosch3 34pph fit fine and when doing some work I broke the upper inlet lip off one. So instead of replacing one- I ordered a new set of gen4's which came with thin alum rings that fit where that o-ring now sits- pissed fuel everywhere from the rail side. No matter what I did it leaked fuel, finally ordered a set of the old TPI retainer clips and problem solved- I left the double o-ring as is. Fair comment though- although this is a FIRST intake I machined it to fit oem fuel rails/afpr and to take the oem TB, so perhaps the dimensions had changed a tad. As far as I know these are regular length injectors, I had used 24pph gen4's in the past and they worked well compared to the Ford blue tops. SouthBay did send up a replacement injector for the broken one- but I'm committed now.
dfarr67 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2018, 04:08 PM   #47  
Supreme Member
iTrader: (20)
 
Orr89RocZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Posts: 23,639
Car: 89 Iroc-z
Engine: Twin Turbo 401
Transmission: TH400
Axle/Gears: 4th gen 12 bolt 3.42


Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.

I hear ya. It seems quite common for aftermarket injectors to require either the double o ring or machine down the rail mounting posts. Thats what i did on mine
Orr89RocZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2018, 09:01 PM   #48  
Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 252

Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.

I'm probably trying to move too fast for my own good, VE tables have been hand smoothed and haven't driven the ones shown yet. I'm learning how to read the dump log a little and I'm seeing 36-37 deg total timing no wonder as the VE learns go forward the ping comes more prevalent. Is the SA advance an add on function or a SA table adjustment? Log is using the first VE learn, showing knock report, VE tables on the second learn and another knock report (no SA adjustments yet). Running up against 100 in VE- does this mean injector info incorrect along with BPC?
Attached Thumbnails
Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.-ve21aug1.png   Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.-ve21aug2.png   Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.-sp21aug1.png   Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.-sp21aug2.png   Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.-vemain.png  

Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.-veext.png  
Attached Files
File Type: zip 21Aug_log.zip (1.08 MB, 0 views)
File Type: bin 2018_5.7_3005_TPI_4.bin (16.0 KB, 0 views)
File Type: csv 21Aug_log.csv (2.26 MB, 2 views)

Last edited by dfarr67; 08-21-2018 at 09:06 PM.
dfarr67 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2018, 10:11 PM   #49  
Supreme Member
iTrader: (20)
 
Orr89RocZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Posts: 23,639
Car: 89 Iroc-z
Engine: Twin Turbo 401
Transmission: TH400
Axle/Gears: 4th gen 12 bolt 3.42


Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.

Theres several spark tables that add together it seems. Pe mode, coolant temp based and maybe even iat based I think in there. Not as familiar with ebl based bins as i am 730/165 stuff

i can tell you that setup may not want more than 34 deg or so part throttle range mid high map values. 36-37 could very well be way to high. But fuel needs to be close first
Orr89RocZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2018, 11:00 AM   #50  
Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 252

Re: Fighting A ping issue, SBC 383 TPI.

In an effort to create more headroom in the VE table I decreased injector size by 10% (BPC 140), I haven't found an answer yet but do you decrease VE universally by 10% or just learn it out?
Interesting I increased VE at the 400rpm row by 10% the other day and the cold cranking start fire up was substantially improved- it wasn't that bad to begin with but it's almost carb like now (if it continues to perform).
dfarr67 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
HELP ME!!! Fighting performance problem ploegi TPI 9 09-13-2018 11:35 AM
16147060 timing issue - ping 88GMC1500 DIY PROM 10 08-07-2010 09:49 PM
Lexus goes down fighting. Hung Start67 Theoretical and Street Racing 6 06-21-2002 08:33 AM
Anyone in Cali good at fighting tickets? OUTATIME GTA Theoretical and Street Racing 8 09-22-2001 06:43 PM
Fighting Oxidation Dennis_91GTA Auto Detailing and Appearance 2 03-29-2001 04:50 PM


Go Back   Third Generation F-Body Message Boards >

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Advertising
Featured Sponsors
Vendor Directory

1982 Camaro '82 || 1983 Camaro '83 || 1984 Camaro '84 || 1985 Camaro '85 || 1986 Camaro '86 || 1987 Camaro '87 || 1988 Camaro '88 || 1989 Camaro '89 || 1990 Camaro '90 || 1991 Camaro '91 || 1992 Camaro '92


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:39 PM.


© 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands
We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
 
  • Ask a Question
    Get answers from community experts
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: