dfarr67

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Running EBL Flash MPFI in a 1989 K1500.
385cid, FIRST TPI, 36pph gen4 Bosch, mild hyd roller Erson, AFR Vortec Eliminator heads, shorty headers, NGK BKR6EIX, 700r4
Just changed to this injector from gen3 34pph and wanted to go a grade lower fuel to 87 octane- previous dyno tune was just OK on 89 octane. Issue is getting audible ping on moderate to heavy throttle around 3600-4000 rpm, 80-95 kpa area, the tuner and myself have pulled timing back and I've run multiple VE learns- things are marginally better but still ping is an issue. I haven't smoothed or added fuel manually to area.
I haven't put a compression tester on as yet maybe today, the pistons are dished, build was spec for 9.5ish- perhaps octone tolerance is an issue?
What has the experience been out there?

One other question about intake track using 3in pipe from diesal filter going around battery, options are limited but I wanted to know when available charge air is lacking?

I can email log, won't let me post.

Orr89RocZ

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Street Lethal

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Did he start with a TBI bin because your Base/Initial timing is set to "0" in the bin. Whatever your base timing is by hand with the EST disconnected it needs to match that in your bin, so switch that "0" in the bin to whatever the true value is in the SA - Initial SA location in your bins. However if your base timing by hand really is "0" then just leave it, but why would you have it at 0?

Your timing is way too low in that RPM/kPa area, I am seeing between 6* to 10* in the 80-95kPa area at 3000-RPM, and remember that your SA - Idle State is set to 22* at idle, so let that sink in for a second. Your SA - Main Table needs to be redone as well as your Initial timing, cut and paste the L98 SA Main Table for starters. Your BPC- VAC needs to be set to 128 not 151 because you are running a 36# injector at 43.5 fuel pressure, correct? So go into your BPC - BPC vs VAC and replace 151 for 128 on all of them. Now do some VE Learns...

- Rob

RBob

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Log file... Use the EBL Flash WUD to observe and dump log file.

RBob.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Much easier to see now, thanks Bob.

He's using the wrong bin, dfarr67, start over and upload this bin;

EBL_F_3004.bin

Change your BPC vs VAC to 128, and verify that your base timing is 6* BTDC. If not, then set your SA - Initial SA correctly to match whatever it is...

- Rob

dfarr67

iTrader: (2)

- Converted over to the latest WUD software last night- still have to migrate various BINS over.
- The BPC should be 126/127 I don't know why it was changed.
- We started with the existing dynoBIN as he knows who did the tune, this is old gear- so most (but not all) are more into LS these days.
- This is a truck application, oe initial timing was 0 deg, I never felt there was an advantage using 6 deg. But it is confirmed set base timing.
- Using FIC supplied offsets here, learning not to trust these too much. https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...-sticky-2.html

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

The O2 correction will continue to correct even if the BPC values are off, you will immediately see this when you compare Injector Duty Cycle with RPM and air flow. Keeping it at 0 degrees Base/Initial is fine, just needed to confirm that is where it was. But yes, your SA Main Spark Map is completely off, it is very low in the upper kPa area, and if your BPC vs VAC fueling is off, you will detonate. Just start over with the correct data, because not only is your fueling and spark advance off in terms of what the EBL is calculating, but other areas as well including AE and PE. A quick Flash of the L98 bin, which is very close to your setup from the getgo, w/the correct BPC values added, will do the trick...

- Rob

dfarr67

iTrader: (2)

This is good info, I'm not an experienced hand at tuning and tend to leave it for years after (usually paying) getting a decent tune.

I know supplied bins should be conservative- or close to oem, would this mean a supplied TBI/TPI bin would be orientated towards regular 87 fuel?

Other than SA , VE tables and BPC which are copy paste, any reason to totally ditch the current file?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

The L98 bins are more oriented around port injection, and have the needed cranking fuel, acceleration enrichment and power enrichment tables that are pretty close to what you're already running. I mean you can copy and paste everything to your current one, but why bother when you need to do your VE Learns all over again anyway...

- Rob

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Look how far off your timing is off compared to mine, just as an example...

That is why you are pinging at that exact area, and no VE Learn will cure that;

- Rob

dfarr67

iTrader: (2)

Thank you for the response.

Just to be clear, this truck used to have the Edelbrock MPFI conversion kit for the 7747- would still have it if I had known about EBL at the time- the supplied chip wasn't that great, so the TBI wiring is still intact with four injectors running off of each driver- no reliability issues with EBL port mod and haven't seen a need to modify the harness either.

Anything higher than 92 octane is a little harder to find, was running 89 octane with little issue- but last year it was $1.15/L now with the carbon tax upon us 87 octane is now $1.30L X 120L for a guzzler- tough tax to swallow. Used to live in northern Canada and when you tie yourself into higher end octane- sometimes the fuel sits in the underground tanks for a long time or they lie as to what is going in the tank- either way I got burned a couple times.

Well, right now it starts OK but not perfect- pump shot, converter settings etc- those little things. I understand from your perspective to clean sheet it- it's just a push of a button to try out a complete bin.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

No worries, just get the timing corrected and watch how much harder she pulls. Save your current bin for now, open up a new L98 bin (the one I mentioned above), fix your BPC values, as well as your SA - Initial SA (set it to 0) and Flash it in, do some VE Learns, and I guarantee it will put an enormous smile on your face. Running under 10* of timing from 3000-RPM up is like fighting with both hands tied behind your back. Once it's back to a 28* minimum at 3000-RPM and up, you're gonna be grinning ear to ear, I promise you...

- Rob

dfarr67

iTrader: (2)

I'm banking on the efficiency of the AFR to return good performance on lower octane. Kind of why after damaging one gen3 injector I stepped up to the gen4 as a better injector.

I think you are right- the truck has never run to its potential, even the 355 vortec version.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

You will get a feel for it as you go, as every engine is different in terms of needed air/fuel ratio's at idle, part throttle, off idle and wide open throttle. At your static compression level, even running 87 octane, you can run a lot more timing than just 28*, so you're more than safe with an L98 SA Table. The TT-1 wideband is an excellent choice and extremely accurate, I am glad you went with it...

- Rob

dfarr67

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Actually the WB is a https://www.14point7.com/products/sp...a-controller-2
I was using the version one before the TT-1 came out- version 2 replaced a cooked version one that a tuner (to remain unnamed) charged me to repair harness by taking controller out and soldering wires fore and aft together......what a 'tard.

dfarr67

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Did you mean bin 3005 (5.7L) 3004 is for 5.0L

Street Lethal

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No, I definitely meant the 3004 bin for you to use. The LB9 (305) bin is a tad more aggressive in the Spark Map than the L98, look at the 100-kPa column and you will see why. Use the 3004 as mentioned, and change your BPC vs VAC and your SA - Initial SA to 0...

- Rob

Orr89RocZ

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Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

It's not much, he should be okay. The L98 bin has about 18* to 20* between 2400- 4000 RPM in the 90-100kPa column, with the LB9 coming in a tad harder at 27* at 2400-RPM but then settling back down at 22* at 4000-RPM. Both bins cap at 26* after 4800-RPM til peak...

- Rob

dfarr67

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I sound unsure because it seems these days unless I build it myself or service things myself or see with my own eyes----**** happens, I was told there was KB pistons in it, when I had the heads off they were fully dished- I was expecting to see D-dish as I've used them before, maybe they are Silvolite- who knows but they were not flat tops. Not too hard to create a second tune and see seems to be a better runner. Another question regarding the BPC- unless it was an unintentional error could it be buddy trying to manipulate injectors to reach desired BLM? Just wondering why it's out so much.
Something else- O2 sensor location.
Using older Edelbrock TES mid length headers into custom Y-pipe, NB is in relatively stock location (heated) and WB is after Y in front of cat- any cause here to change O2 parameters as in being slow to react?

Orr89RocZ

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Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

The Utility reflects the value of 151 with either 30-psi of fuel pressure and 36# injectors, or 43.5psi of fuel pressure and 30# injectors. It's possible he either had the fuel pressure wrong, or the injector size. Not sure what he was thinking...

- Rob

dfarr67

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Well a little disappointed with FIC- decent feedback on them, but when buying the injectors- what I expected to receive is a printout of injector flow rates in a matched set and a copy of offsets. I had to ask to get an email with some data. Here again the Bosch part numbers have been molested with- so who really knows the data is what they say it is. I try to do my part......point is tuner repeatedly asked what the injector was out of- I literally received multiple answers. On the other hand- the old injectors were well documented and SouthBay even sent up a replacement.....gratis. Thanks SouthBay. My little rant.

dfarr67

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I'm also wondering if there might be a better choice of plug I should be using?

Sharing a SA plot from Gearhead-
sometimes the long runner manifolds need a substantial dip right at max torque where the runners are working the most efficient and just dumping in airflow then you can ramp it straight back in as the flow tapers off

I've seen this in the HPS 89 octane tune but not as pronounced. Don't know how to post plot only.

Orr89RocZ

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dfarr67

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BTW, I am running the '369' GM ignition module.

Orr89RocZ

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dfarr67

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These are fairly fresh and gapped to 040. Just wondered if the heat range was in the ballpark.

Orr89RocZ

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dfarr67

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Well, spent yesterday and a chunk of change tuning.
- felt good on the highway and up hills where I spent the rpms- probably really slow taking 1 deg out at a time. Felt OK until I goosed in town and she didn't like that at all- lot of work to do. Starting to think maybe 87 isn't supported. Worst case is to travel on 87 and haul on premium. I haven't looked at anything yet. Tried SA from 3004 and it scared me, so went to the 3005 350 bin. a little better. Very short log.

Orr89RocZ

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dfarr67

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I'm at work so no way for me to answer these questions, that is something I would not have changed, but others may have. in the 3004/3005 are they different? If they are, and my values are working against me- I wonder if I should bite the bullet and clean sheet things. I haven't had a chance to mess with VE tables yet.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

It really depends on your coolant temp to calculate the final SA. I think the main question here now is for you to confirm for everyone reading along if your ping issues were taken care of by fixing the SA Main table. Pinging gone? In the end.the final timing numbers in terms of what you want are up to you. You are definitely under 30* total SA at normal operating temperature though...

- Rob

dfarr67

iTrader: (2)

No........ping is still there, did 10 flashes taking out 1-2 deg at a time in knock areas (more experienced tuners can likely zero in faster). Things are getting better on highway and hill climbs- I was pleased with power, not working above 4000 rpm yet. Offending areas are 50-85 kpa, 2600-3600 rpm if memory serves. That log around town- I expected something different since things were going well on the highway, from a stop to merge pinged. I guess smooth out VE and just work on knock areas.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Do you literally hear the pinging, or are you going only by what the EBL is telling you? Could be false knock if so. You're going to have to do some trial and error then if you can hear it, see if you can get some 93 octane in your tank and share the results. How was your camshaft installed, straight up?

- Rob

Orr89RocZ

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dfarr67

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Yeah- engine itself is noisy with famous GM roller lifters, Comp steel ultra roller rockers. Ping is audible. As far as modifying SA tables I'm using what EBL provides for seeing knock report.
I've had false knock in the past and have the knock sensor mounted on 90 deg fitting, also using an early ESC module spec'd by Robert R off carbed application that is less sensitive to knock.
I didn't install cam- installed when engine built- I would assume (*** of u and me) that it straight up. I specified degreeing as well.
Just filled up last night with a fresh tank of 87.

Slow day today- too much time thinking about this. Would it be a benefit to check over a few settings and load 3004/3005 VE and SA tables and do a log in closed loop. It occurs to me the more VE learns I did the more sensitive to ping it got.

dfarr67

iTrader: (2)

So reloaded up the 3005 tune and did a short log in closed loop. Have done two VE learns and the uncorrected bin is shown here, I still have to smooth and add fuel- seems to want 10-12 everywhere. My mistake previously was doing multiple VE learns on top on one another without having a good look at the plot.
I bumped all values by 10 units- was that a good idea?

Orr89RocZ

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dfarr67

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Any best guesses what these are from, sold to me by FIC as 36pph@43.5psi, or 42pph@58psi. Long body style and 4 or 6 hole cap.

Orr89RocZ

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dfarr67

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FIC gave me some data that was converted to voltage offsets, I would prefer to confirm those- a confidence thing. My old Bosch 34's had loads of data on them.
Was your 305 supercharged?

Orr89RocZ

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Orr89RocZ

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dfarr67

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Loong story- I have done injectors three/four times on different long tube intakes, never had an issue. Current set up the Bosch3 34pph fit fine and when doing some work I broke the upper inlet lip off one. So instead of replacing one- I ordered a new set of gen4's which came with thin alum rings that fit where that o-ring now sits- pissed fuel everywhere from the rail side. No matter what I did it leaked fuel, finally ordered a set of the old TPI retainer clips and problem solved- I left the double o-ring as is. Fair comment though- although this is a FIRST intake I machined it to fit oem fuel rails/afpr and to take the oem TB, so perhaps the dimensions had changed a tad. As far as I know these are regular length injectors, I had used 24pph gen4's in the past and they worked well compared to the Ford blue tops. SouthBay did send up a replacement injector for the broken one- but I'm committed now.

Orr89RocZ

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dfarr67

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I'm probably trying to move too fast for my own good, VE tables have been hand smoothed and haven't driven the ones shown yet. I'm learning how to read the dump log a little and I'm seeing 36-37 deg total timing no wonder as the VE learns go forward the ping comes more prevalent. Is the SA advance an add on function or a SA table adjustment? Log is using the first VE learn, showing knock report, VE tables on the second learn and another knock report (no SA adjustments yet). Running up against 100 in VE- does this mean injector info incorrect along with BPC?

Orr89RocZ

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dfarr67

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In an effort to create more headroom in the VE table I decreased injector size by 10% (BPC 140), I haven't found an answer yet but do you decrease VE universally by 10% or just learn it out?
Interesting I increased VE at the 400rpm row by 10% the other day and the cold cranking start fire up was substantially improved- it wasn't that bad to begin with but it's almost carb like now (if it continues to perform).