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This is cold start this morning after I flashed the new BIN you sent last night. I disconnected the battery after flashing. I'm sending this because it floods really bad after start up. I don't know if it's relevant or not. I checked C11 for a green wire that goes to the MAP sensor. it was there, I also checked the wire with an ohm meter and had continuity from EBL connector to MAP connector. I'm sending a picture of the MAP plug. I replaced it last year and I wanting to make sure I wired it right. I checked the vacuum at the MAP sensor, I tied in with a tee, 18.5 in hg.
With the spark advance showing (7*) from yesterday's screen shot due to the ESC malf code pulling timing, and the O2's and INT indicating a very rich condition, you more than likely flooded the engine. Flash in the new bin from this morning, as this one disables the ESC from the EBL system and should maintain the proper spark advance at idle (22*). As far as the MAP sensor is concerned, place the key in the on position without starting the engine, and toggle over to the Diagnostic screen again to see what the MAP is reading during key on only. Should show 100-kPa and at least 1 volt. The image you just posted above shows the MAP at 10-kPa w/no voltage at idle...
I did flash the new BIN. It is the 94GMC383-3.BIN. This is the #8 spark plug. I checked it yesterday because it wasn't contributing when I pulled the wire. This isn't a new problem. I have fought it for the last four years with Harris TBI. I don't even want to remember how much money I spent with him changing different things in the chip, buying new chips, shipping. Then I found Dynamic EFI. Harris could never get it to stop flooding on cold start up and never figured out the timing issue. This is the second rebuild on this engine because of the timing. Melted a hole in #7 piston. That's when I went from a 355 to a 383. I was really surprised when It still did it on start up with the EBL. That tells me there is something not right with something on the engine and not with the old chip. This flooding problem has frustrated me to no end. I have tested the MAP sensor for vacuum and 5 volt reference, also watching the voltage change when I add and subtract vacuum. Checked several times the TPS voltage, out of frustration I replaced both MAP and TPS and it still didn't change anything, I didn't really think it would, i just had to keep trying. I also put a new distributor in it. I've changed the fuel injectors, I've changed the fuel pressure, 13psi or 22psi, it's still the same thing. So far nothing has helped. Oh, wait, putting the stock chip back in it stopped the flooding but it didn't have the power of the performance chip either. I think that's all of the history. Wow that brought up a lot of bad memory's.
I did flash the new BIN. It is the 94GMC383-3.BIN. This is the #8 spark plug. I checked it yesterday because it wasn't contributing when I pulled the wire. This isn't a new problem. I have fought it for the last four years with Harris TBI. I don't even want to remember how much money I spent with him changing different things in the chip, buying new chips, shipping. Then I found Dynamic EFI. Harris could never get it to stop flooding on cold start up and never figured out the timing issue. This is the second rebuild on this engine because of the timing. Melted a hole in #7 piston. That's when I went from a 355 to a 383. I was really surprised when It still did it on start up with the EBL. That tells me there is something not right with something on the engine and not with the old chip. This flooding problem has frustrated me to no end. I have tested the MAP sensor for vacuum and 5 volt reference, also watching the voltage change when I add and subtract vacuum. Checked several times the TPS voltage, out of frustration I replaced both MAP and TPS and it still didn't change anything, I didn't really think it would, i just had to keep trying. I also put a new distributor in it. I've changed the fuel injectors, I've changed the fuel pressure, 13psi or 22psi, it's still the same thing. So far nothing has helped. Oh, wait, putting the stock chip back in it stopped the flooding but it didn't have the power of the performance chip either. I think that's all of the history. Wow that brought up a lot of bad memory's...
Well right now the EBL is indicating a 108 INT which is bottomed out, and indicating you are extremely rich. However, I am not worried about that because you have not conducted any VE Learns yet to correct the VE table so of course you're going to be rich with that camshaft down low, initially. Once the VE table is corrected, the Open Loop table will work itself out during cold start, so don't worry about that. What you need to focus on is eliminating the malfunction code for the MAP (can you also confirm that the ESC 43 malf code is off by the way). If the malfunction light is on, you are restricted from doing any VE Learns, and you need to start doing them as soon as you can....
Also, this has me concerned as well;
Napa injectors for a 5.7, I have to trust them that the are stock ones...
We need to determine for sure what you do in fact have, and not rely on what Napa had told you.
Do you have a part number for one of them? Actually, try and get both part numbers...
- Rob
Last edited by Street Lethal; Sep 8, 2020 at 06:46 PM.
I also put a new distributor in it. I've changed the fuel injectors, I've changed the fuel pressure, 13psi or 22psi, it's still the same thing. So far nothing has helped. Oh, wait, putting the stock chip back in it stopped the flooding but it didn't have the power of the performance chip either. I think that's all of the history. Wow that brought up a lot of bad memory's.
Okay take a deep breath and breathe....
Now, remember, we haven't even started tuning yet. All we're doing is putting together a base to get you started, and once that was/is done, we would have you start a VE Learn session right away. But you can't do one as of yet because of the malfunction codes. Do not worry about the engine running rich right now, it is honestly irrelevant at this point because the engine is not tuned yet. Just focus on getting those hard malfunction codes resolved so the VE Learn can commence. One you start your first VE Learn and feel the difference, you will understand. Until then though, where do the malfunction codes stand...?
* INT will continuously flicker, so that is what it is...
* MAP is still pending. Have you started checking for proper voltage yet...?
* ESC was disabled in the last bin, has it since been removed from the malfunction codes?
Also remember, the system is set up to clear codes after five start attempts which is why I just have you disconnect the battery to speed up that process as opposed to waiting for five start attempts. Give another update as soon as you can with where the malfunction codes stand...
I broke out the volt meter and the vacuum pump and run tests on it again. When you saw the MAP voltage at 0 I rolled my eyes and thought here we go again I'm going to get another MAP sensor to add to the rest of my pile of MAPs. Low and behold it was actually bad this time. Going to my pile of map sensors I found an Echlin that I had bought for it a over a year ago and it tested good. I probably have four or five more in different brands all for the same truck. A fresh set of talented eyes after all these years is awesome. Rob, you are the first person I have talked to who didn't just scratch his head, thank you.
It's idling nice and smooth, as a balanced engine should. It's quiet running down the road and it doesn't die when you let off the gas pedal.
It does still ping at 45mph when you slowly speed up or on a slight hill, if you kick down to third it's fine. I used DCR calculator to get the right compression ratio when I built it. It's at 9.3:1 static with .041 quench with Keith Black pistons, the dynamic compression ratio is around 8.7:1 if I remember right. and I'm using 90 octane, best I can get here. The ping surprises me, I was so careful with it so I could use pump gas. I also did a VE learn after the test drive. I took screenshots if you want to see them.
Jamie
Last edited by AKPreacher; Oct 12, 2020 at 12:11 PM.
When I tested the MAP I also checked the vacuum. I tee'd into the MAP vacuum source to be sure it wasn't restricted some where. I have 18.5 in hg at 725 rpm.
Excellent. Continued VE Learns to shape the VE table, then you can start pushing the timing to where you need it to be in terms of performance, as well as where any detonation issues are prevalent. As you datalog, you will see where you need to add Acceleration Enrichment (pump shot) if need be, as well as adjust the Power Enrichment settings wherever needed. Great job!
Also, remember, when doing VE Learns, remember to click on File and Preferences in the WUD, and set your BLM Learn temperature so that it only Learns in your operating temperature (195 to 215, or 200 to 210,whichever is your preference). This will keep the VE table from deviating during the Learn. The idea is to see no greater than 1 percent change throughout (ideally)...
Yes. As you save them you will be able to see the VE graph in Tuner Pro as it is forming. The earlier OBD1 systems usually had a six percent threshold in terms of O2 correction where it was able to correct, and the changes you are seeing in the WUD Learn screen are in percentage. This is why we are always shooting for a one percent final VE Learn log everywhere in the kPa table, as this tells us that the fueling is on the money, and that the Learning is completed...
Also, what I would recommend, is have your son monitor your datalog for you as you drive and record one, and whenever you hear pinging, have him write down the MPH, RPM and time frame that is being displayed on the WUD. This way you can go back into the analysis screen and get a good idea where that pinging is commencing, then go into the SA Main Table and pull timing in that general area. I gave you the 305 LB9 timing table, as those engines were at 9.5:1 static compression from the factory...
I don't want to overwhelm you with too much tonight, because you did an excellent job. But notice how the VE Learning is only Learning up to a particular RPM, but then stops. I already set the BLM Learn in the bin for up to 6000-RPM, but the reason why it is stopping way before that is because the system will not Learn during Power Enrichment. What you'll need to do is disable PE by maxing it out, then complete the VE Learns up to 6000-RPM, then re-enable PE. Then you're done. It's very easy to do, but we can hold off until tomorrow if you'd like...
I don't want to overwhelm you with too much tonight, because you did an excellent job. But notice how the VE Learning is only Learning up to a particular RPM, but then stops. I already set the BLM Learn in the bin for up to 6000-RPM, but the reason why it is stopping way before that is because the system will not Learn during Power Enrichment. What you'll need to do is disable PE by maxing it out, then complete the VE Learns up to 6000-RPM, then re-enable PE. Then you're done. It's very easy to do, but we can hold off until tomorrow if you'd like...
- Rob
Once the RPM threshold has been increased for BLM learn , what in PE gets maxed out? I think I raised my RPMs to 4500 because, well, TPI. Is it best to max out the PE Min RPM Threshold or TPS% enable threshold?
PE - TPS Enable Threshold is the one you will want to max out, just set all those values to 100%.
- Rob
Edit: In your case Kyle, if your supercharger is already installed, just remove the intake tube from the throttle body to avoid boost until the VE Learn has been completed....
Last edited by Street Lethal; Sep 9, 2020 at 01:48 PM.
Your PE has not bee changed as of yet, so when the TPS hits these percentages (see below) you will drop out of Closed Loop during this instance. The idea is to raise these values to 100% to avoid Power Enrichment so the system can Learn all the way up to 6000-RPM. Once your VE table is completed (remember, averaging 1% during that small operating temp window) you can then go back into the PE table and put it back the way you found it, or tailor it to what your engine wants...
Opp's I overlooked it the first couple of times through it.
You are making BIN's without being hooked to my truck. How do you do that?
It would be nice to do this here in the house the go out and flash it.
Yes, there are two areas in the XDF for the Power Enrichment. You're looking for the one closest to the bottom of the scroll tab. When you find it, click to open it, then make the changes to 100% for all of those entries to temporarily keep it from exiting Closed Loop. Don't hit "x" to close the pop up box after making the changes, when you're done making the changes, click on the save button on the pop up (looks like a floppy disk) and when you hover over it, it will say "commit changes". Click on that. But you're not done just yet. Then go to the top left of the Tuner Pro screen, and click on File, then click on Save Bin. Once it is saved, you can re-Flash it in with the new changes....
Edit: If you want to create a new bin name for it to keep it separate from the others, click on "save bin as" and name it whatever you want. Just make sure to save it in a folder on your laptop you easily have access to, and that you always select and Flash in the proper and most current bin...
- Rob
Last edited by Street Lethal; Sep 10, 2020 at 02:05 PM.
Sorry for the late response, just got back. Well, that parameter tree is not really the bin per se, the XDF is more like the road map of your bin. Just click on any entry area on the parameter tree side on the left and it will pop up on the right side. This can be seen in the pic that I posted above. Make the changes in the pop up on the right of the paramater tree, save it (pop up will disappear once saved), but then you will need to save it again as final on the top left under File and Save Bin...
Wow, I was just reading the thread, "Tuning with the EBL". They were talking way over my head.
Anyway I have my PE maxed out and am ready to set VE Learn. You set my parameter rpm at 0-6000 rpm. My question is, "Do I have to reach 6000 rpm, high rpm's or just drive normal?" if it's high rpm's then how high?
Thanks,
Jamie
The full VE table needs to be completed. If you do not drive that high in RPM, then do as much Learning as you can, and I will later show you how to build off of what you have Learned to correct the RPM above it manually...
The full VE table needs to be completed. If you do not drive that high in RPM, then do as much Learning as you can, and I will later show you how to build off of what you have Learned to correct the RPM above it manually...
- Rob
I would love to hear some tips/tricks on this.
Following this alone to update my tune, or well... now that I have learned some tricks here, extending the areas that have been learned.
I am still working at it, but after a few drives I had some spikes. So, Sitting with EBL open, I left the VE learn corrections open so I could see what cells had been learned. I left them as is, and then moved adjacent cells up (or down in a few spots) by the same %. Then what was left I brought up to an appropriate level. Basically spitting the difference between adjacent cells. Then I applied a .8 Smoothing factor to the overall table.
If you have a less manual way, I am all ears. The above method worked pretty well. I did one round of it mid day and then got some seat time. The new VE learn had 1/0s for the most part but a few areas with larger numbers. Would like to get a few more learns in to confirm the VE table before celebrating, but so far so good.
I'm getting 1's and 0's until I get up to around 3400 rpm and that's well above the speed limit. We braved 3600 at one point and set a 7, we only tried that once. there a steep hill or rather a mountain, it's about a mile up. pulling a trailer up with my suburban I can do about 35 without over revving the engine more than it already is. Without a trailer we hit can third but no way overdrive.
That's the only place I know of where I can get high rpm's with a load and no speeding ticket.
Driving in second at high rpm's on flat roads would give false results wouldn't it?
Would it be worth driving this mountain be worth the trouble, it's about 25 miles from here but I will do it if it won't give VE learns that will set back my progress. Is this a lot of work for very little return?
Haha, you guys.... remember that we disable Power Enrichment to avoid entering into it during harder throttle so we can see what the system wants higher in the VE table during a Learn. So the idea is to go harder throttle with it being disabled, not disable it and still drive normally lol. You don't have to exceed the speed limit, just set the VE Learn, and when it is ready, give it some good throttle from a dead stop to get those RPM's up there. Not too sure of the stock rev limiter in that stock ECU's setting, but you should be close to, if not over 5000-RPM on hard throttle, so no need to manually downshift. The Learn happens very quickly, and once you see what the engine wants up in the VE table, and as the percentages continue to decrease, you can fill in the rest manually...
I think disabling PW is good practise after many learns not disabling- is this only with NB- I don't recall reading about this for ebl WB other than charcoal canister purge disconnect.
I done 14 VE learns now. First ones were around town, later ones on the highway, one of those was driving to Anchorage where I flashed the EBL then back to Wasilla where I flashed the EBL again. Last night we found a place where we could get some good wide open throttle. At first we could only hit 3800 rpm where the engine sputtered and seemed to hit a wall, but as we flashed, drove WOT and flashed again we were able to hit 4500 rpm where we flashed again and called it a night.
Are we ready for the next step?
Correct, the EBL will Learn during Open Loop w/the WB, so disabling PE is not needed.
Alright Jamie, now load up your bin in Tuner Pro, click on the VE tables, and select show Table Graph on the right pop up. Take a screen shot of the graph, and throw it up in this thread. Let's see where the Learns have taken you. Here is one of my VE Low Speed table graphs w/turbo as a reference for you to hep you find the Table Graph..;
Don't worry about your intake manifold right now...
There is a HELP heading in the WUD that is mentioned in the Introduction to Tuning. Is says there is information there but when I click on it I get a message that says, This program is for use with the Embedded Locker System, when I click the OK button the window closes and leaves you still at the WUD window. No other information comes up. It seems like something is missing.
Do I need to reinstall the CD that came with the EBL or is this normal?
I wasn't planning on replacing the manifold right now, I was just curious. It's something to dream about for future mods/improvements.
Always reaching for better/faster. Guys gotta plan.
Jamie, I'll be home early today from work and will log on later this afternoon. I can see already where the Learns were made in the High Speed VE compared to the stock High Speed VE graph that you started with. You only need to know a few areas, then you can blend it in with the Lower Speed VE that was already Learned. Just need to confirm/clarify that your Lower VE Table is now within 1% from your last VE Learn that you did, correct? Meaning the last VE Learn was showing only 1% when you toggled over to the Learned area when you conducted your final VE Learn.... correct?
Rob,
The terrain around here changes, as much up hill as down and about the same amount of flat road.
We would be 0 and 1's, then several 2's and one 3 would show up.
It won't stay all 1"sand 0"s.I stopped when it just wouldn't stay any lower.
Do I have a engine issue that needs to be addressed? Or is this normal for the type of driving described?
Jamie
Last edited by AKPreacher; Sep 16, 2020 at 07:24 PM.
Alright, there are easier ways of doing this once you get familiar with Tuner Pro as well as tuning in general because you will know what to look for, but in your case you need a more hands on practical approach. If you are sure that your most current Lower VE is no greater than a 3% deviation from the Learns here and there, then load that most current bin in Tuner Pro that was created after the final Learn, then click on the Lower VE table so you can see it on the right side. Highlight the entire graph, every single cell, then right click and hit copy. Once you do that, close the bin from Tuner Pro, then load up the very first bin you started with. Click on the Lower VE table to bring it to the right, and again highlight the whole entire graph, right click but now hit paste. You should immediately see the Unlearned areas. Smooth them out by averaging them with their surrounding cells. If there are no Black cells (doubtful), then you can simply start pulling the VE in very small increments using graph mode to shape it into a smoother graph. Just smooth it based on how the VE Learn was shaping it, don't add or subtract too much in the areas that you are dragging. Once you're done, you can highlight your finished work, right click and copy again, then load up your most current bin again and paste it in. The whole process should take a few minutes. Do the exact same thing with the High VE table when you're finished. This of course is a very tedious way of doing it because there are shortcuts using Tuner Pro, not to mention an experienced tuner can smooth just by looking at it, but I don't want you getting confused. Give it a shot then post up your work when you're done. Remember, the Lower VE looked almost complete as it is, so it needs very minimal work to it, but you will still want to perfect it either way. Go for it...
I know that it can be a pain in the rear when it comes to a 1% deviation throughout the VE table, but I tried to share some of the tricks involved in accomplishing this. You want to be able to start the engine as well as idle with a rock solid INT/BLM at 128/128 (stoich), and you also want to be able to blip the throttle over and over again while watching the INT/BLM deviate very slightly, but then immediately go right back to 128/128 (stoich). This is where your attention to detail regarding percentages during the VE Learns will pay you dividends. As an example, here is a quick video I made yesterday, warm start at 200 degrees, Closed Loop enables in ten seconds from the start of the engine, and a few blips of the throttle up to 4000-RPM. Watch the INT/BLM. I honestly don't even waste my time with a wideband anymore to tell you the truth. Still running the 3 Bar MAP sensor mind you, albeit no more turbo. Yet another myth about lack of resolution...
I honestly don't even waste my time with a wideband anymore to tell you the truth. Still running the 3 Bar MAP sensor mind you, albeit no more turbo. Yet another myth about lack of resolution... This was another question- if you had the option of using either, which has it's use.....I thought WB was a rough in while ND polished off. Understanding that the engine runs off the NB which would be a more real world zeroing on cafr.
When using just one O2 sensor, both of them are just guessing what the air/fuel ratio really is, and that's because we're only really tuning the leanest cylinder when it gets right down to it. You can cfm check the cylinder heads and intake manifold all day long and find that they flow dead even individually, but the nature of the beast is that engine cylinder volume will vary tremendously despite having everything CNC'd, and unless we're running individual O2 sensors on each exhaust primary, then we're only tuning the leanest cylinder. Air/fuel ratio's have a decently sized spread, whether idle, part throttle or wide open throttle. Meaning a 12.8 to 12.2 PE setting isn't that drastic. Reason being, is just because you set the PE for 12.8 does not mean a few of those cylinders are not already running a 12.2, because again, that air/fuel is not precise even with a wideband when you're using only one. But despite the difference, you can pull the plugs and find them pretty evenly burned throughout because of that spread. A heated narrowband is my preference. The cam in the video I posted.is way too big for the engine, but a lot of port work to the heads and intake made up for it. In Closed Loop she idles perfectly, off idle is perfect. She's a tad on the loud side because it's currently running open long tube headers. Still waiting patiently for my intermediate pipe to get here...
Which leads into another question......stoich 14.7. If you are in different regions or countries, fuel formulation may differ and base tunes of twenty years ago assume a good quality of fuel (zero ethanol) regardless of octane. I'm moving to 87/89 octane but have to assume min 5% ethanol- do you still use 14.7 for a daily driver, I don't have the experience to go full blown 14.2 but have adjusted (half heartedly) to stoich setting 14.5 and changed all 14.7 in the open loop afr table to 14.5 without adjusting anything else richer.
Running an ethanol blend, I keep my idle air/fuel at 14.7, and Power Enrichment air/fuel at 12.7. Again, this is because we are tuning the leanest cylinder using just one O2 sensor, so some of those cylinders may already be close to, if not possibly richer than 14.2. If I targeted 14.2, then I am concerned some of them might be dipping into the 13's at idle. It's wasting fuel. Blow by, gasket seal, air velocity, etc, all play their part as to what each cylinder is literally getting, so with one o2 sensor we always tune the leanest cylinder...
