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Thanks RBob, I looked trough the threads quite a bit, didn't see anything current until after I posted. Sorry.
I have your abbreviations and acronyms from your website, thanks for those. Some of the abbreviations on Tuner Pro
aren't on that page, like KNK I thought it might stand for knock but since the numbers for that are over 30,000 I wondered.
If it does stand for knock then i have a different question.Please help me with the abbreviations on Tuner Pro, and comment on the 30,000 KNK. Thanks
Ok, the KNK refers to several things that control timing,
KNK - Min MPH to Enable
KNK - Min RPM to Enable
KNK - Min CTS to Enable
I assume 30,000 counts is high. Do I disable these?
I'm sure the instructions are very complete for those who already know how this all works. but for me they are almost meaningless. I have never been this deep into tuning.
I have performed the VE learn doing several trips and I believe this engine should perform much better than it does. It is not stock.
383ci, Comp cam Advertised Duration 258/262, Lift .458/.458, 1.6-1 roller rockers, Vortec heads, 9.3-1 compression, Edelbrock Proformer manifold, bored 46mm throttle body, AC Delco155 lph fuel pump, 22 psi fuel pressure. 2.5in duel exhaust, Flowmaster 50s series without cats.
The Edelbrock Performer TBI intake is basically a stock replacement. So that in itself will help choke the engine.
As far as the knock counts, need to find out whether they are from true knock or false knock. Then go from there. See the page on our site about spark plugs, then pull some out and see if it is true or false knock.
Note that there is also a What's Up Display Help file.
Will it choke the engine more than 46mm throttle body
Yes. In your case you will want an increase in plenum volume, so either get your hands on a better intake manifold, or have the existing one ported out. The 46mm throttle body is a restriction with peak, but not as much as the intake manifold is overall, and throughout the band...
I had a GMPP manifold on first and Tbichips told me that was a restriction that cost me 20 hp. I don,t see anybody who has done flow testing on these manifolds so I'm having to take others opinions. This can get expensive. I have 500+ dollars invested between both manifolds. This is what I did to the manifold and adapter when I built the engine. I opened up the ports on the Edelbrock to match the intake gaskets, this was done to the heads as well. I opened up the top of the manifold and the holly adapter to the edges of the gaskets and just a little farther under the adapter so there were no obstructions between the tbi unit and the manifold passages. Using a die grinder I removed any sharp edges and shaped the adapter to a smoother more channeled surface. I left the dimpling from the die grinder because polished surfaces are thought to create drag. I opened the Holly adapter to make room for the throttle plates to clear. The Edelbrock manifold is a four barrel manifold, so I believed Tbichips when he suggested this manifold and adapter combo. I am lost how to choose the best manifold.
What do I do now?
When I was screwing around with TBI way back when, I made a mono-blade TBI out of stock throttle body, then took a Holley Projection TBI manifold (truck version) and opened it up the most it could possibly go (see pic), so start getting creative. I left it rough to help with fuel atomization being a wet system. Port matching is an okay mod, but you have to know where to target your porting to not only allow for more plenum volume, but to help speed up its' velocity. Now, do you have an EBL system, and if so, have you datalogged your setup to see how much power your making?
I do have the EBL system. I joined this forum because you guy's talk about the EBL and explain things on it. The only thing I have been able to figure out so far is doing the VE learns. I'm having a terrible time navigating and using the EBL. I don't have any grandchildren to show me how to work it. To error is human but to really foul things up you need a computer. I've only had an I Phone for about six months. I am computer incompetent. There I said it. Install the EBL, no problem, use the laptop to make it work, problem! If you have the patients to help I would appreciate it. And no, I don't understand how to do the data logging. It took me over an hour just to figure out how to start this thread.
Tuning ECU's is the same as tuning a carb, you're just doing so electronically. The engine is asking for the exact same thing either way. Like anything else, first let's determine and set your base/initial timing, as well as your base fueling. Ready whenever you are, so let's get started...
Thank you Rob! Right now I Have the base timing set at 0* like GM says for their stock engine. And that is with tan/bk wire disconnected. I know the base timing should be set for the new cam but I not sure how to come to that new spec. I have much experience repairing cars and trucks but in the 40 years I have been turning wrenches, I have never built myself a hot rod. I wouldn't have this problem if I were working with a carbed engine, except picking out an intake manifold apparently. I'm not working right now because of health reasons so I will be able to do what you tell me to do pretty quickly. I'm pretty excited to have someone with experience and time and the willingness to help me understand the way to do this. You said to have the intake I have now ported. Is there info on properly porting an intake? I have reading time right now, and at some point I need to replace a couple of noisy "new noisy" lifters. Summit was pretty easy to work with when I told them i had a couple of noisy lifters. They sent me two with no questions ask. Again thanks for this, I will keep checking for your posts.
Even with a bored 46mm throttle body, I know this engine is starving for air.
To check for this do a key-on, engine-off and note the MAP value (in KPa). Then at WOT and high(er) RPM check the MAP value. If it drops more then say 8 - 10 KPa, there is a restriction. It could be from the aircleaner or from the TBI unit.
A datalog is easy to make, from the WUD File menu select DataLog... That will open a file dialog box. Navigate to where you want to place the log file, then type in a file name. Select Open. All incoming data will now be written to that file.
Thank you Rob! Right now I Have the base timing set at 0* like GM says for their stock engine. And that is with tan/bk wire disconnected. I know the base timing should be set for the new cam but I not sure how to come to that new spec. I have much experience repairing cars and trucks but in the 40 years I have been turning wrenches, I have never built myself a hot rod. I wouldn't have this problem if I were working with a carbed engine, except picking out an intake manifold apparently. I'm not working right now because of health reasons so I will be able to do what you tell me to do pretty quickly. I'm pretty excited to have someone with experience and time and the willingness to help me understand the way to do this. You said to have the intake I have now ported. Is there info on properly porting an intake? I have reading time right now, and at some point I need to replace a couple of noisy "new noisy" lifters. Summit was pretty easy to work with when I told them i had a couple of noisy lifters. They sent me two with no questions ask. Again thanks for this, I will keep checking for your posts.
A lot of what GM recommends is for stock engines. We'll be focusing on what your engine wants though. There might be areas where I might say something in which you already know, so don't take anything I say the wrong way, I just need to be sure that it is a particular way before moving on from that area so we can continue. Lets start with the basics;
* First, what bin did you start with so I can see it for myself?
* 0 degrees wi/EST disconnected is okay, but I would consider upping to at least 6* disconnected.
* What size injectors are you running...?
* Where do you want your engine operating temperature to be?
We'll start with these to create an entirely new bin based on the one you're currently using. We'll make the changes while documenting them so you can see what we're doing, and understand how to make the changes yourself using the system. Again, it is exactly like tuning a carb, and once you are familiar with the locations of the tuning parameters as we go, you'll soon know what to do and why. Also, you might not even need to touch the intake manifold just yet. First lets see how it is after making a few key changes....
To check for this do a key-on, engine-off and note the MAP value (in KPa). Then at WOT and high(er) RPM check the MAP value. If it drops more then say 8 - 10 KPa, there is a restriction. It could be from the aircleaner or from the TBI unit.
A datalog is easy to make, from the WUD File menu select DataLog... That will open a file dialog box. Navigate to where you want to place the log file, then type in a file name. Select Open. All incoming data will now be written to that file.
RBob.
Thanks RBob, are you wanting a throttle snap to WOT or are you wanting WOT at a certain road speed and rpm?
Is the WUD only available with the laptop connected to the EBL? I can't find sitting here in the house.
Rob, don't worry about my feelings, assume I know nothing.
EBL_F_2023.BIN: This is the bin I wanted to start with but don't know how to verify it. I really should verify it to make sure I didn't mess it up.
I do have an auto trans 4L60E, this BIN seemed closest to what I have.
Napa injectors for a 5.7, I have to trust them that the are stock ones.
Thermostat is 195* At 20-30 below here in Alaska, that doesn't seem hot enough.
Part of the reason I'm not working right now is memory issues, please be patient.
I did some reading last night on porting intakes. Everything I read was saying after port matching blend the passage 2-3 inches into the runner and that is what I did. I also cleaned up and smoothed all the casting slag. Anything that looked like a restriction I ground off and smoothed.
I'm actually installing that transmission in my GTA this coming Winter. How are you controlling yours though? Aftermarket controller? I bit the bullet and went with a TCI controller...
Anyway... I just pulled up 2023 into TunerPro, gonna make very small changes to it, and will tell you exactly what I did. I'm leaving your Base/Imitial timing at 0 unless you're able to bump it up to 6* BTDC with the EST disconnected...
Is there a way to verify the BIN I used?
And yes I can change the timing. 6* BTDC
I'm piggy backing ECM's. RBob says to use the original ECM for the trans and the EBL for the engine.
Is there a way to view your post and type my reply without opening another window to the Thirdgen site?
You can upload your bin from your laptop or computer by clicking on advanced settings when you reply, and attach file. But it's okay though, I just made a few changes, and I just went back in now and adjusted the Base/Initial to 6* BTDC....
* Switched SA Initial from 0 to 6* BTDC (set Base to 6* at balancer w/EST disconnected)...
* Switched SA Idle State to 22* from 20*...
* Redid your SA Main Table, blended in the new 22* Idle State with idle area...
* Switched BPC vs VAC from 135 to 127; 383 TBI w/55# injectors @ 22-psi.
* Switched Fan Settings to 215* (on) and 196* (off) to accommodate 195* thermostat.
* Upped your Idle RPM settings in P/N and Drive to low 700's to accommodate camshaft.
* Also upped the BLM Learn threshold to 6000-RPM...
Upload this bin into your EBL system, then we can set your IAC steps afterward...
Bob, I found your post about your mono blade TBI, awesome! I have another stock TBI in the garage, it looks like fun just to do it, even if I don't use it. But I won't.
I also need to get the engine to stop falling on its face under heavy acceleration before I open up the throttle plates.
You said it worked for you, any problems with it warping or losing gaskets.
Last edited by AKPreacher; Sep 24, 2020 at 03:01 PM.
If I still have that TBI mono blade you can have it (free). I am serious, but I have to look for it.
Upload the above bin into the EBL system when you get the chance, then start the engine and wait for the engine to reach operating temperature, and once it does, watch to see where the IAC steps are hovering. You will want to bring them at around 30 steps during idle state. So if the steps are below 30 steps, using a torx screwdriver, slowly close the fast idle screw on the throttle body while watching the idle steps rise. Once you see them averaging 30 steps, you are done. On the flip side, if the steps are way above 30 steps, then open the fast idle screw on the throttle body until you see the steps averaging 30 steps at idle. From here, you can start your VE Learns...
The only advance I can find is in the view heading at the top left of the window and that's for looking at 2D and 3D patterns.
All I can get to open is the perimeter tree and I don't see any advanced settings there.
I should note that I don't have a Camaro, I joined Thirdgen because you guys have the most knowledge for working with EBL systems.
I'm working on a 94 K2500 Ext cab. Hope this doesn't throw a wrench in things.
Scratch that, I meant when replying on the Thirdgen website here for using Advanced Settings when you want to attach a bin to this thread. If you want to find the bin you're running on both systems; if you want to see it on the EBL, go into the WUD app (key on with it hooked up and reading data with the EBL system), click on Display then click on Flash, this will show you the last bin you uploaded into your EBL system. When you want to upload it into Tuner Pro, click on File and Open Bin. But you have to upload the XDF as well into Tuner Pro. If you need me to show you how just say the word...
Thanks RBob, are you wanting a throttle snap to WOT or are you wanting WOT at a certain road speed and rpm?
Is the WUD only available with the laptop connected to the EBL? I can't find sitting here in the house.
I don't think a throttle snap will do it. Best is 2nd or 3rd gear, but need to watch the vehicle speed (no need to wadding up a car or getting a ticket). Having a data log taking place while doing this is best, as you can go back through it for the data.
Rob, I downloaded the file onto my laptop then my son helped me find out where it went in the computer then flashed it to the DBL. Also set the timing to 6* BTD.
WUD says I have codes. Are they listed in the DBL somewhere? I used the shop scanner KOEO it showed 4 codes. I cleared them then rechecked them and they were still there. The check engine light is on on the dash also. I'm guessing this has to do with the stock computer being disconnected. Should I be able to Connect the DBL so I can read codes with my scanner? I guess I should just ask how do I read codes now? Also I know on the scanner I set my TPS to about .60-.65 volts closed throttle. The WUD reads in percentages, how do I interpret that? The IAC reads 150 on the WUD.
I see the IAC reads steps on the WUD so I can go ahead and adjust it. I wanted to check the codes and see if there was anything I could do to fix those first. Right now it keeps dying while it idles. At times the idle slows like it's going to die the the IAC opens and the idle jumps up around 8-900 guessing but it will eventually die.
Yes, the commanded idle is lower so the system is fighting it. The engine is starving for air. The higher the number for the IAC, the more air the engine is asking for. Open the throttle blades during idle, and watch and wait for the IAC to decrease down to 30 steps, then stop. Do this during operating temperature. You can check for codes by selecting Display then Malf Codes on the WUD...
IAC now set at 30.
ESC #43, the right light is solid, the middle light flashes slow. I don't have an ESC on this. I read somewhere that the later model TBI engines did away with the ESC and the computer took it over.
IAT lo #23 left light is blinking, This model doesn't have an IAT.
Map lo #34 right light is solid.
I forgot to mention the first MAP all three lights were on. I had another used MAP sitting here so I tried it, that's the one that has just the right light on
You are using the bin that I sent you with no other changes, correct? If so, I will go back into the bin and disable ESC 43 for you. Actually, you try it. Go into Tuner Pro, upload your bin with the proper XDF, and look for the following;
Malf Flags - 43 thru 55 - Bit 7 - ESC 43
Uncheck it, save it, then upload/Flash it again into the EBL...
The IAT is already unchecked being a TBI F-Body bin...
Hold off on the MAP code for one second...
Next, disconnect the battery, wait a few minutes, then reconnect. Start the engine, and check your codes again. Let me know what it's showing then....
Actually, you try it. Go into Tuner Pro, upload your bin with the proper XDF, and look for the following;
Malf Flags - 43 thru 55 - Bit 7 - ESC 43
Uncheck it, save it, then upload/Flash it again into the EBL...
Make sure that when you make a change in Tuner Pro, that you save it twice. First in the small pop up on the right where you make the change, then afterward up top on the left in Tuner Pro you will click on File then Save Bin. Not Save Bin As, Just Save Bin, then re-Flash into the EBL...
Is the MAP code the only issue now though? Yes, other areas will trigger the MAP Lo malfunction code. Can you give me a screen shot of the WUD at idle by taking a picture of it with your phone, or screen shot with the laptop, and post it to this thread...?
Give me an update whenever you get the chance. which codes you are seeing now, and if you unchecked that ECS 43 that I mentioned. If you need me to go into the bin and do it just say the word. I really don't like the way that VE table looks anyway, I want to smooth it out prior to the VE Learns. But yes, depending on where your TPS and kPa are hovering during idle, this will trigger the MAP Hi & Lo malfunction code if it deviated too much from the stock parameter setting...
* Malf Flags - 43 thru 55 - Bit 7 - ESC 43 has been unchecked...
* VE Table borrowed from TB4 bin (copied & pasted), low, high and extended tables...
* Malf33 - MAP Hi BARO Limit raised to 80-kPa...
Flash this into the EBL. Once it is Flashed in, disconnect the battery, reconnect then start the engine. Need you to do this again because I am unsure if you did this part prior. Bin with changes is below;
Ok, my son just helped me with this. I disconnected the battery for a few minuets. Then flashed the EBL with new BIN. The ESC is still on and the IAT light still flashes.
I can't see which IAT sensor malfunction code is blinking because the image grab didn't catch it. I am assuming it is IAT High 25 because it looks like the IAT on the WUD is 184 degrees, though it is very hard to make out when I zoom in on the picture, and it might only be 104 degrees, so I would need you to clarify that. Need to confirm with Bob if that malfunction code, as well as the pulling of the timing itself on the WUD screen is only a byproduct of the EBL algorithm, and that it is not actually happening because the original ECM is controlling the ESC, and the system has no IAT. But then again it is actually happening on the EBL side because your spark advance is being pulled down to 7* at idle, so the algorithm is causing that, not any knock sensor. So now we need to figure out why the EBL is setting those codes with no actual control, as well as those parameters being unchecked, and it's usually due to other data being presented.... so here is where we need to look at why your MAP Lo 34 is being triggered. During idle at 45 kPa, and 750-RPM, which is good. Although the WUD is showing kPa at 45, and your TPS at 0, toggle over to the WUD Diagnostic screen (up top, where it says DIAG), and tell me what your MAP and TPS volts are...
Edit: Also noticed your WUD showing that you are in Gear when it should be reading P/N. This might be due to the system piggybacking the stock ECM for the 4L60e. In my case the TCI control is going to have to "share" the TPS reading with the EBL for electronic transmission control, but the gear indicator is now the issue. I can get rid of that TCC light on the WUD being that the system no longer controls the transmission lockup anymore if you'd like me to, but the gear indicator remains an issue.
- Rob
Last edited by Street Lethal; Sep 8, 2020 at 03:49 AM.
Bob, where is the corresponding entry for Option Word 3 - Bit 1 - ESC (P4) in the EBL Flash XDF, as the Flash version is showing that location as the setting for PeHi; Where is the entry in the Flash XDF to disable the ESC test/function? And if there is no test performed beforehand, how do we permanently disable ESC on the Flash side? Malfunction code was already unchecked, but there must be another location in Flash to completely disable it..
- Rob
Last edited by Street Lethal; Sep 8, 2020 at 04:41 AM.
Between that and disabling the SES/CEL for it, the counts will go up but no code and no retard will result. Since that ECM can't run an internal knock filter there isn't a resistance test such as the one the P4 has available.
For the IAT, the first column will flash but won't go any further.
For the MAP, double check that the signal wire from it is in connector position C11. If C11 is open that will cause a MAP low malfunction.
Note that to see the actual sensor readings use the Diagnostic display on the WUD. The main WUD display will show the default values that the ECM is creating and actually using.
And to add, don't worry about the TCC indicator or gear in use indicator. When using a BIN for a stick shift car the TCC output is used as a reverse lockout feature. Which is what is being seen as the vehicle isn't moving.
There is no P/N or high gear input to the ECM due to the use and the 4L60E. The E transmission use a range switch assembly, which is different from the non-E transmissions.
This is cold start this morning after I flashed the new BIN you sent last night. I disconnected the battery after flashing. I'm sending this because it floods really bad after start up. I don't know if it's relevant or not. I checked C11 for a green wire that goes to the MAP sensor. it was there, I also checked the wire with an ohm meter and had continuity from EBL connector to MAP connector. I'm sending a picture of the MAP plug. I replaced it last year and I wanting to make sure I wired it right. I checked the vacuum at the MAP sensor, I tied in with a tee, 18.5 in hg. MAP plug
The blue wire is the green wire from the computer
