Here you are:

Injector Data Sheet: M-9593-BB302 (EV6 30 #/hr)

Fuel Pressure: 44 psi
Flow rate: 32.3 #/hr

Offset Compensation versus Battery Voltage:
6.4 Volts: 3193 usec
8.0 Volts: 2163 usec
9.6 Volts: 1618 usec
11.2 Volts: 1278 usec
12.8 Volts: 1031 usec
14.4 Volts: 821 usec
15.0 Volts: 784 usec*

RBob.

 

Amazing info. Thanks for the education. It's gone from overwhelming to fascinating now.

 

​​​​When ​@RBob speaks we listen and we listen good!

 

Do you have new fuel pump? I'm sure you do. IMO, stock pump at 50psi will struggle (heat up) and reduce volume at higher rpm with your set-up. I would not do that. I'm sure Bosch has a recommended working fuel pressure for their M-9593-BB302 (EV6 30 #/hr).

 

I have a racetronix pump in there that's about 4 years old. It's the one with the relay kit that pulls 12 volts direct off the battery. 20amp fuse. Not a lot of use since installed. Maybe a couple thousand kilometers worth of driving. It looks like the injectors numbers, according to the info sheet, were taken at 39.5psi. It may have been you who posted that info sheet on another thread. I can't remember. It's a PDF file.

 

Not likely. I don't remember. Usually it's rated at 43.5lbs/hr but again, there is different datasheet and some will give you the rating at different fuel pressure.

Here's some theory that is interesting (that you might already know):

DRP = Distributor Reference Pulse
When cranking, the required fuel Base Pulse Width (BPW) is calculated and immediately (asynchronously, without regard to a fixed schedule) fired in the Interrupt Service Routine (hereafter “6.25ms ISR”)
At 300 RPM, ECM turns on injectors
At 300 RPM, there is 1 rotation every 200ms (1/(300/60000)).
4 DRP per rotation. At 300 rpm, there are 20 DRP per sec. (300X4/60). Around 200ms for the first 4 DRP (50ms/DRP)
8 DRP @ 300rpm = 0.4sec
So by adding 0.500 from 1-8 in the table you have 50% of cranking Injectors PW coming on 0.4 sec earlier.
If you crank for 6 secs and let's say injectors come on by the 1st sec, that leaves you with 5 secs - 0.4secs = let's say 4.5secs = 225DRP = that's a lot of fuel!!!!!

When cranking, SA is on initial (no ecm involved). So OEM is 6*, but you can set it a what you want. It depends on what the engine likes. My 383 likes 12* and it was recommended by GMPP.

Once your cranking is done and engine fires-up (Engine On), ECM takes over SA and Open Loop (OL) start-up routine begins, followed by a delay decay in OL AFR, decay in OL AFR, OL AFR and finally closed loop. During OL, ECM has no clue what's going on. No feedback from O2 sensor. O2 sensor is not even sending a proper signal until it is warmed-up. That's why guys switch to heated O2 sensor, specially with headers.

This is important to understand to diagnose why an engine initial start-up/idle can be an issue (assuming, fuel pressure, ignition, all sensors, starter and voltage are in order).

Cranking can be too rich/lean, followed by start-up OL too rich/lean, followed by too slow/fast OL AFR decay, followed by too rich/lean OL AFR, followed by too early closed loop operation

That's why sometimes engine fires right-up, stumbles, surges, stabilizes and dies; or hard to start, fires-up, runs ok for a few seconds then dies, etc...

Depressing the gas pedal over 75% is a flood condition clearing procedure. It kills the injectors while cranking. It's table: Injector PW multiplier vs TPS% (zeroed out over 75% TPS). So if you have to do that for a better start, that tells you, it is too rich on initial cranking (just an example).

MAF tables and injector BPW calculation are not involved in initial cranking. But they are in what follows (OL). If they are off, engine can run poorly.

Bla, bla, bla

...I've got.... too much time on my hands ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫

 

Holy smokes, do you work for NASA? That's incredible information. I think it may have been @RBob who posted that PDF (thanks for that Bob) At least some of this is starting to make a bit of sense. Given that it fired up under ARAP i'll assume component wise I'm ok. It's got to be in the tune parameters. Maybe i'll bring ARAP into the compare and have a look at what's going on between some of the parameters you mentioned. Funny thing is, when I ran the ARAP the injectors were set to 24# and I had the 30# in there.

 

@RBob @Tuned Performance @SbFormula @Fast355 I'm sure I missed a few, my apologies. Thanks for all the advice. I honestly have no idea how you guys figured all of this out, and to the degree you have. I read all the sticky's but there's really no replacement for experience. This forum is fantastic. Glad the folks here are so willing to share the information. Where else would one ever figure out something like zeroing out the low pulse width injector offset vs BPW table for example? Something you're supposed to do with Bosch III's. There's so much in all of those tables. Really puts into perspective the level of engineering that went into these cars back in a day when computers themselves were just a couple of years old.

 

RBob's data checks out against the math I use to convert Ford data to GM data. Our values are within ~10 usec of the same throughout the whole curve, which tells me it is a difference in the way we rounded the data and insignificant to how the engine runs.

Rbob do the MAF cars have a Minimum Pulsewidth setting or Short Pulse Adder table? Been years since I even messed with a MAF car and I forget if they do.

I can calculate a fairly accurate short pulse adder table from the Ford data if it is needed. While not as accurate as having someone with a $100K worth of calibration equipment gathering exact injector data, it is more accurate than using data programmed for another injector.

 

Target pressure is 39.15, but the Ford injectors typically do much better at higher pressures. I suggested 50, because the data does not have to be interpolated and is an exact stated value at that pressure. Then again so is 44 psi. At the end of the day Interpolation gets the data close enough that it will still be fairly accurate. It is hard to say what the stock fuel system has for pressure unless it is checked with a known accurate gauge.

 

Ford nearly always uses 39.15 psi differential pressure across the injectors for their base injector calibration data. Then they include a number of scalers that are multipliers for the given data. Since 43.5 psi is not a value stated on the spec sheet, the data has to be interpolated from data at 39.15 psi and 44.95 psi, both of which are stated values. High Slope is the nonlinear initial flow rate for the first say 1.5msec, the Low Slope is the linear flow rate. LS, HS, and Breakpoint all work together as Fords version of a Short Pulse Adder.

FRPP Flow Summary.xls (ford.com)

 

I just noticed the last part of this comment. I do not understand why anyone would zero injector data in any tune and not put the correct data in place. Injectors are always going to have some lag time in flowing the fuel they flow if the curve was linear. Some amount of pulsewidth time has to be added along the way to get the injector flow linear with pulsewidth.

 

From what I was reading through searches, apparently it has something to do with the original Multitech fuel injector not being fast enough or something like that. (may have got that part wrong) anyway from what I gathered it appears as though that value acted as sort of a crutch for that injector that the Bosch III does not require.

 

I wish, but not that smart lol. Again, hours and hours reading through TGO threads and going out data logging, analyzing and trying to figure this stuff out. You want an in depth NASA type explanation? You talk to @84Elky. He's the creator au S_AUJP for '7330 ecm $8D. Your brain will overheat I guarantee. Check-out his posts.

Yep. If engine breaths better than oem and you beefed the injectors 25% (30/24) without adjusting the BIN, all things being equal, the ECM will add 25% more fuel across the board including start-up. Shot in the dark but it might run. However, definitely not optimal.

 

@Fast355 can you share "the math"? That'd be interesting to have. Thanks

For $6E =yes
For $32B = yes
For $32 = yes
For $1F = not sure, but should

 

When I switched from the OEM multec to Bosh III on my LB9, the BLM turned rich (all other things being equal)! They were remanufactured Bosch III direct replacement 19# from Fuel Injector Connection. I had to retune open loop, close loop VE (not a MAF TPI) and WOT. Either the injectors were flowing better or they were flowing more than oem, or... the oem data sheet did not match the new injectors. I did zero out the famous table low PW and it did not make any difference. I also tried on my 383 TPI and it did not make any difference either (datalogger and drivability). This is real testing on chevrolet small block with TPI and OEM ecm. Not some other stuff or brand.

What made a difference was stabilizing voltage at idle. There was a big variation from low 12 to low 14 volt due to underdrive pulley on the alternator. Applying the brakes with blinker and radiator fan on would lower voltage and you could see the BLM reacting. I actually was able to fine tune the Injector voltage offset table a bit just by doing testing with warm idle while varying the voltage. I did trial and error until BLM were barely reacting to voltage variation at idle. It was time consuming but I've learned a lot.

EDITED:
When you tune or make comparison between data logs you have to record and make sure the following data are stable (comparable):
Outside Air temperature
Ave MAT
Barometric Pressure
Relative humidity
Engine temp
Ave battery voltage or fuel pump voltage (depends on which one your tune uses to adjust injectors PW. I believe $6E uses battery voltage. It's $8D that has a choice.... hard to remember all that stuff!!!!!)
Fuel pressure at WOT (should be the same unless you modify it. Fuel pressure while cruising will vary because vacuum is attached to regulator. Every engine set-up has a different vacuum profile = fuel pressure varies differently = injectors behave differently)
Using the same route

Make sure you warm up and drive the engine for minimum of 20 minutes. Engine can reach operating temperature within minutes, however, BLM will vary from the moment engine reaches operating temp and 20 minutes later. Before doing any mods to your tune, you want at least 20 minutes of pre driving before using any data for BLM and WOT tuning.

Make sure gas tank is full, or should I say not too low. I've had lean BLM on a low gas tank!!!!

And finally, the injector PW display on your datalogger does not display the PW voltage compensation and the low PW adder. It displays calculated injector BPW + BLM/INT correction.

 

Unfortunately it is not simple math to explain and involves some graphing once you have data points specific to the Ford injector you are converting data on.

But the gist is calculate the break point fuel for the pressure in use. Then derive the pulsewidth to get to the break point on the high flow value. Then you have to graph out fuel delivery versus the high flow linear slope. Then you make a second line graph with the low flow starting at the offset value. The line graph starts at the offset value for that pressure which also has to be calculated from the specs. The high flow line graph intersects the low flow at the break point. Then you have to solve for the difference at various pulsewidths between the two line graphs. I break out my old TI-83 graphing calculator to do it. Not hard to do, just difficult to set up. When the line graphs set up it basically gives you a data triangle under the break point aka short pulse limit, that data triangle is the short pulse adder.

What has to be graphed will look just like the line graphs in this article. Once graphed just solve for the difference at specific points along that line graph. Not perfect, but accurate enough.

http://injectordynamics.com/articles/ford-injector-characterization/

If I have a couple hours to burn soon, I will do a write up on it using an example injector.

 

I only zero out mostly on 30-36 D3 here’s some good info

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...injectors.html

 

I do not agree with doing that on the ones available as Ford Motorsports numbers. Red tops and Green tops for example. The data is readily available from Ford and not difficult to convert to GM. I feel having the correct injector data offers better drivability and smoother running, especially in closed loop where small fueling changes are needed and the injectors need to respond in small controlled increments.

I have tuned a 7730 both ways and it ran noticeably better with good injector data and was much easier to tune.

The only vehicle I feel injector data does not matter much on is TBI. The TBIs just drool fuel and are never truly right anyway with a wet manifold, speed density and lack of IAT. I leave them a bit rich with the BLM pulling a little fuel and move on.

 

The short pulse adder for example on the Ford 41# Raptor injectors feeding my Vortec 383. At 0.06 msec pulsewidth the adder is 0.3 msec. It is a straight line to 0 @ 1.6 msec. Correcting the short pulse adder tightened up the closed loop afr swings and made it run smoother. Not that it is the smoothest running engine at lower rpm with a 218/228 on a 108 cam.

 

Yep by @84Elky . Awesome!

 

With 41# injectors in a ~500 hp 383, at 2,000 rpm and no load the pulsewidth change that drives my PID loop for closed loop is roughly 0.1 mS or 100 uS changes up and down. That should help explain why injector data is necessary for the engine to run smoothly, especially in closed loop. Even small changes can affect the fueling of the engine. When the integrator is having to chase the 02 voltage because the injectors are not calibrated correctly the engine will not run smoothly and can even have light throttle bucking or surging. I will also add that I still need to reduce my proportional fuel adder at that. My short terms are still swinging about 2-3% rich and lean in places and I am working to eliminate as much of that as possible. If you looked at my short terms in OBD1 logging my Integrator would be dancing around like 131-125-131-125-130-125-131-126 and that is with 100 usec of pulsewidth change with a total pulsewidth of about 2.9 msec.

 

Finally got a chance to run my chip. The .50 addition to that 1-8 fuel table made a huge difference to my crank time. From a cold engine that hasn't run in a week it started in under 2 seconds. The idle is much better too. It was hunting before to the point of stalling. There's a subtle hint of a hunt now so I imagine I can tune that out. (No idea what to adjust lol) It's definitely not stalling out though. I can't remember but I don't think the fan should be on right way. It's the drivers side fan that comes on as soon as the car starts. I set the fan to normally open...I think.

 

Is the surge open or closed loop ?
fan switch should be n/c

 

Definitely open loop.

 

You might observe coolant temp on tp rt. Then try adding fuel from cold start temperatures to closed loop approximate 165f
tae should be in Celsius

 

It's really subtle compared to what it was before. Seems to level out on its own whereas before the oscillating got bigger and bigger to the point of a stall.

 

Very hard to say without a wideband, my thoughts was a lean surge

 

Awesome!

 

Looks like the fan issue was the fact my A/C compressor is not turning because I need a belt. I jumped the switch on the accumulator and it's not coming on now. Has a decent idle but once it goes into closed loop I can hear it. The idle changes. There's a temporary rise in idle then it comes down. Issue now is it's very hard to start when it's warmed up. I need to step on the throttle almost as if it's a carburetor.

 

May I suggest that if you need to step on the pedal, it might be too rich. If you get the TPS over 75%, if I remember, you cut the injectors (multipler =0).
Hope this helps

 

You are correct. However I don't have to step on it that much. It will start if I don't step on it but it's a difficult start. It struggles then eventually lights off. It's almost as if it's to lean

 

Then maybe, when you open the throttle you get more air. But maybe you are lean. One way to quickly find out IMO is to increase fuel and see what happens and vice versa.
Hope this helps

 

IIRC, there are IAC crank position, or key-on init IAC steps that can be set.

Once into bigger cams and heads the engine doesn't pull the air & fuel through as easily at low RPM. So more IAC steps and a little more fuel helps to kick off the engine.

RBob.

 

Thanks Rbob. Is this the warm IAC steps vs coolant? What are those steps a measurement of? Is this something you'd typically add a percentage to, as in say 10% to each step?

 

Is it 0x527 IAC Park position? It actually shows on datalogger when key-on and during cranking. I believe 305s are set at 120/145 and 350, set at 160. 160 works ok on my 383 TPI.

 

I was thinking along the lines of a table such as this:

See if that is used as a key-on IAC position for cranking table. If so can add some steps were required for a good start up. I can't see having cranking always at the 160 step park position. A warm restart would have the engine RPM skyrocketing.

RBob.

 

Your numbers are greater than what I currently have in the APYP. Does greater mean the the pintle in the IAC is drawn back more, so letting more air in? I just want to make sure I understand what exactly I'm altering.

 

I believe @RBob was giving you an example of ARHP $6E hack to refer to the table. Your data might be different. You have the right table.

If I may, I believe there are 2 other tables involved also (and probably more!)
IAC Warm Park Position Multiplier vs MAP (0x684)
IAC Steps vs CT (0x6A1)

There is some info on TGO about IAC, but be prepared to read a lot!!

On the datalogger, key-on and during cranking, IAC reports 160 steps from scalar 0x527 IAC Park position (I believe your BIN is at 160 also). Then, as soon as engine is "declared" ON, the IAC goes to a calculated value. On hot or cold start, the initial is still 160 but the calculated goes down significantly when cold hot. Those are just observations. I don't know if the "160" on cranking is actually where the IAC is really at.

Just an example:
Cranking cold = 160
Then, Engine "ON" = 131 going down
Cranking hot = 160
Then, Engine "ON" = 70

Those are observations on normal operating engine. When the engine stumbles upon start-up, the IAC might open a lot to up the RPM.

Just some info to help you with interpretating your data.

Cheers

 

Yes, higher IAC step count is open further. More air bypasses the throttle blades.

RBob.

 

Thanks for the info. I actually do think it's to rich when warm. I had an old Chrysler that had leaky injectors. Started fine when cold but once warmed up it did the exact same thing as I'm experiencing now. I'm going to plug the laptop in today and log it. I'm pretty confident I have to roll the fuel back on the warm start. This was happening when temp was just starting to come up on the cars gauge, so it may have been running for 8 minutes. Outside temp was close to 32F.

 

Could be!

Just remember the sequence of events for fuel
A) Cranking: fixed amount of fuel based on DRP vs multiplier apply to fixed mS PW vs CT, multiplied by TPS% multiplier. (BLMs are not involved)
B) OL Start-up: Commended OL AFR immediately after engine declared "ON" (not touching gas pedal). It is calculated using base commanded AFR.
C) OL Start-up Decay Delay: Commanded OL start-up AFR is maintained for a period of time (you should see a fixed commanded AFR, not touching gas pedal, as increased LV8 could affect calculated AFR in OL). That delay can be quite short depending on CT
D) OL Start-up Decay: Commended OL start-up AFR is decayed (you should see commanded AFR value increasing slowly and at some point stabilizing once completely decayed)
E) OL: Commanded OL AFR based on base AFR, CT, LV8 and MAT (it should not vary too much, mostly changing as CT goes up during warm-up)

BLMs are not involved with A
BLMs are involved with B, C, D and E

So if you have stored BLM from your last ride, fuel delivery can vary from one start-up to another depending on how your BLM cells are sorted out (not while cranking). Sometimes, you can get high and low BLMs in the same cell, giving you a good average near 128 but with extremes. If you shut down the engine with a high BLM stored, it will increase fuel on next OL cycle and vice versa. Bottom line is keep an eye on the BLM number upon start-up. Personally, I got fed up with Stay Alive Memroy (SAM), so I disabled it. Every start-up is always back to baseline.

Why all this jargon? I find that it helps understanding the sequence of events, so you can target where in the start-up sequence the engine is stumbling or surging. I had one experience, where the decay was too fast and it was making the engine stumble a few seconds after start-up. Or, another time, the cranking was right on, but the OL Start-up AFR was too lean which made the engine die after start-up. Had one where cranking was too rich followed by OL Start-up too lean resulting in engine hard to start, firing-up and stabilizing then dying.

Best is to always crank in same fashion and let the data logger record what's going on

In the end, it takes some time to really dial it in following symptoms and sequence of events (EDITED: AFR gauge really helps dialing in Open loop warm-up)

Ohhh, and keep an eye on RPM while cranking, need over 300 for injectors to get activated. It can creep-up on you if battery depletes after sitting for a while.

Hope this helps
Cheers

 

Do you have a recommendation for an AFR setup with a wideband? It's my understanding that the WB is strictly for the guage and has nothing to do with the ECM. I'd actually prefer a setup where it's just used for tuning. I don't need anything in the A pillar. I can easily get a bung welded in for a second tune only O2 sensor.

 

I will tell you what I like. There are probably many other options.

I did the pillar pod and wired to the '7730 using S_AUJP on SD system so I can datalog the AFR gauge. I don't know if you can data log with the '7165, your system. I did that on my restomod because I push the car and want to keep an eye on things

I also have a AEM basic AFR gauge that is jury rigged with dollar store dash clip and cigarette lighter 12v plug. I install a bung with plug in the Y-Pipe exhaust near the wheel well (for stock 3rdGen). So I can quickly install the AFR gauge when I need to. I take time to fish the wire through the fender into the cabin, but you could go cowboy and just run the wire over the fender and door (at your own risk!). Fishing the wire is easy and no need for hole or anything. With this method, I can't datalog.

Voila!

 

You can incorporate a wideband 0-5 and have in datalog and dash through D8 of the ecm.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...deband-o2.html

 

Great!!! with the '7165 also?

 

Yes, link in post

 

Amen

 

I have a adx for aem 30-4110 the bins are located in that thread

 

Would it work for a AEM 30-0300?