TL;DR: Want to know what mask(s) would be suggested for someone who's looking to modify a 3.1L LH0 with a 7730 ECM


Howdy,

I just wanted to see what mask y'all would suggest I run for my specific application. I have a stock 3.1L LH0 at the moment, running on the 7730 ECM and the stock AZTY/ $88 setup. I just got my hands on an APU-1 and the MEMCAL adapter from Moates, but I'm not sure what mask(s) people tend to use for this motor and ECM these days. Not going to be doing any real tuning at the moment, but I am planning to do the whole hybrid 3x00 top end swap in the near future (hopefully) + a cam, and further down the line, I'd like to add a turbo. Been perusing lots of old threads from other folks who used to run turbo hybrid setups, and it seems like $59 was the go-to. Now, I HAVE actually managed to track down an old $59 BIN/ ADX/ XDF for a 3.1 on a thread from about 5 years ago, but it seems like there aren't too many people running it these days. I've seen a lot going on with modified $8D setups, but it all seems to be geared towards TPI. $59 seems like it will be good once I can eventually add a turbo, but not sure how it would work out on a naturally aspirated setup. It would be nice to have the ability to datalog with a wideband, and the E85 capabilities that Vanilla Ice managed to get working on $8D would be a nice bonus.

Once again, I'm still in the planning stages for all of this, so I won't be doing any tuning at the moment. I'm more curious to know what mask y'all would suggest so I can spend some time learning my way around it. Ideally, I'd like to avoid having to rewire or repin anything when the time to tune comes, if at all possible. If it is possible to run $59 on a stock setup, that would be nice as well, so I could create a base tune and work from there as I'm able to change more about the motor. If $8D can be made to work with a V6 setup, I'd like to look into that as well. I also haven't found a whole lot pertaining to tuning using $88, but with my very limited knowledge, it seems like it may be able to work as long as the car is still NA... though wideband functionality would be nice. Finally, if there are any other masks I should maybe look into, I'd love to hear about 'em. Thanks!

Edit: If it changes anything, I am also planning on swapping from the 700R4 to a T5 before I do anything to the motor... partially because I've been wanting a manual for years already, and partially so I don't have to fuss with the TV cable with the 3400 intake... hoping it also means I wouldn't have to do any repinning to run $59, as it seems like the only wire I'd need to change is for the TCC.

 

Bumping this thread after talking to Vanilla Ice on his E85 thread, thinking now that $8D might be the way to go, considering all the support for it here. My setup hasn't really changed since I posted this originally, but I did finally get to do a 5 speed swap back in March, so TCC is now officially not a concern for me anymore.

The hybrid top swap is still on hold for the time being, as I need to watch my spending, but I would still like to get the car running on $8D while the motor is still mostly stock so I have a good base to build on. I'm going to be checking out the wiring diagrams for $88 and $8D to see if anything would need to physically change for it to work, but if anyone happens to already have experience with that, as unlikely as it is, I would love to know!

As far as my limited knowledge on TPI/ 3.1 MPFI setups goes, I know they're both speed density setups with mostly the same sensors (TPS, MAP, knock sensor, IAT, CTS, IAC, and I believe they're both batch fire on the injectors), but I'll have to look into whether or not the signals that $8D expects are going to be the same as what the 3.1 sensors are sending out. Knowledge on the actual electrical side is pretty lacking on my part at the moment, but I'm hopeful that it'll all line up. I don't think the TPS/ IAC on the 3.1 are unique, should be the same signal-wise as what you'd find on the gen 3 FWD 60V6 cars (Impala, Grand Am, Malibu, etc), and what you'd find on the late 90s/ early 00s Northstar/ Short-Star cars (like the Olds Aurora). At the very least, they use the same connectors for these sensors, but I could be entirely wrong about the electronics being the same... I just know that people over at the 60degV6 forums have been using the throttle bodies off of these cars on their builds using stock ECUs.

I certainly have a lot to learn as far as tuning goes, and all this sensor stuff might be completely irrelevant to getting the car running with $8D, but hey, gotta start somewhere! Bit busy this weekend, but I'll be looking into the wiring pinouts when I get a chance, and I'm going to order a second MEMCAL adapter for one of my spare ECUs so I can leave my current one together. Still daily driving this car, but swapping out ECUs for testing is easy enough to do.

Anyways, if anyone here happens to have experience getting $8D to work with a V6, or has any tips on what to check when switching masks, please let me know! I'll come back and update this thread when I can dig up more information, hopefully I'm not biting off more than I can chew with this...

 

Have you tried swapping and changing the injector/cylinder/displacement values?
that may get you running (poorly) but swap in your tune the best you can and see how it goes.

after looking at pin outs et al.

 

I'll go and try making a test BIN for $8D using my stock $88 values after work, should have all the same tables available from my recollection. Comparing the pinouts from the factory service manual between the VIN T (3.1) and VIN F/8 (5.0/5.7 TPI) cars at the moment, might be in business....

The 24 pin A/B connector matches up 100% correctly.

The 32 pin C/D connector nearly matches up, spotted a couple differences:

-On the 3.1, pin BC11 controls injectors 2,4,6; BC12 controls 1,3,5. On TPI, BC11 controls 1,3,5,7; BC12 controls 2,4,6,8. That may or may not cause issues, BUT: I dug a little deeper, and those who are more familiar with SBCs might already see why the banks are seemingly swapped:
On a 3.1, the pass side bank holds the odd numbered cylinders (1,3,5), and on the L98, the pass side holds the even numbered cylinders (2,4,6,8). So, these appear switched, but they should be sending the injector pulses to the proper side of the engine still. ***Came back to this because I had a realization: SBCs use 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2, as I'm sure everyone is aware, but the 3.1 uses 1-2-3-4-5-6. Had to come back after I thought about it, since the V8s fire two cylinders on one side at 2 different points in the order, whereas the V6 alternates banks with each ignition. Shouldn't cause issues relating to ignition itself, but there may have to be some trickery involved in getting the injectors to fire at the right time.... we'll see what my options are in $8D, not actually sure what triggers each bank to fire.

Second discrepancy with the C/D,
-On the 3.1, pin BD12 is "A/C Press Fan Sw"; on TPI, pin BD12 is "Fan #2 request". The 3.1 has a single fan, and it can either be activated by A/C or by the CTS. The wire colors are different between the two here as well, with the 3.1 having a Dark Blue wire, and the TPI having a grey wire. May or may not cause any issues, but I rarely use AC (needs to be recharged), and the fan control very well may function the same between the two.

Third discrepancy with C/D,
-On the 3.1, pin BD13 controls "PSPS" (haven't the foggiest about what that means); on TPI, pin BD13 is unused. If anyone has any clue as to what "PSPS" means, I'd love to know. Listed as a Light Blue/ Orange wire, and has a positive battery signal in both Key On and Engine Running. Power steering pressure switch? Not sure if these cars have one, but that's my best guess.

All other wires match up 100% on C/D.

For the 32 pin E/F (yellow) connector, all of the E pins line up, but there's some differences on the F pins:

-On the 3.1, pin GF1 is "A/C Relay 'ON', Control 'OFF'"; on TPI, GF1 is the M/T Shift Light control.... I don't have the M/T shift light at all (thankfully) since I have a factory auto car, though I'm not sure how this would affect A/C. This pin gets "0* B+" in Key On/ Eng Run on both ECUs

-On the 3.1, pin GF2 is "A/SW/SOL" (no clue); on TPI, GF2 is "Port (Switch) Solenoid". Possibly something with the EGR?

-On the 3.1, pin GF4 is "EGR SOL #2"; on TPI, GF4 is "Converter (Divert) Solenoid". Both pins get B+ with the Key On, but TPI gets uh, 1 with a triangle (less than 1 volt) in Engine Run. 3.1 is B+ in both positions.

-On the 3.1, pin GF5 is "EGR SOL #3"; on TPI, this pin is unused. Not sure why the 3.1 has so many pins for the EGR, and mine does still function, but I'm not against blocking it off and tuning the car to compensate for it.... will probably need to do so anyways after I can do away with the stock manifolds.

-On the 3.1, pin GF6 is the "TCC CONTROL A/T and SHIFT LIGHT M/T"; on TPI, GF6 is TCC control only. This pin shouldn't matter for me, but wanted to make a note of it anyways.

-On the 3.1, GF9 is the "ESC Signal", with a voltage of 2.5 in both key positions; on TPI, GF9 is "ESC Knock Sensor Signal", but with 9.2v in Key On, 9.3v Running. Knock sensors might not be compatible, will have to see if I'd need a TPI knock sensor for the final install. Will probably just unplug it when I test so I don't run the risk of frying it, but I'll look into this further. Notably, this is the first sensor I've found that expects different voltages between the two.

All other pins through GF16 (for VATS, MAP and MAT) are identical and use the same exact voltages.


Overall, I'm pretty happy with what I'm seeing here, and pretty much everything lines up perfectly. The A/C control might be a bit of a worry, but not critical for getting the engine running at least (though I do intend to keep A/C, despite mine not being charged for the last 7 years ). The only spot that really gets me raising an eyebrow here is pin GF9, for the knock sensor. I'm going to try to figure out why the voltages are so different between the two, but at least all the pins line up. Might just be as simple as needing a TPI knock sensor in place of the 3.1 sensor, which would be easy enough to adapt (assuming the threads aren't the same). All of these pinouts/ voltages came from the '91 Camaro factory service manual PDF from AustinThirdgen, as my '92 Firebird FSM is at home at the moment. I'll double check the pinouts in my '92 FSM when I get home to confirm, but there shouldn't be any difference; the ECU I currently have running in my car is from a '91 3.1 Camaro, so I suspect they are identical. Note to self: 3.1 ECU pinouts start on 6E3-A-6 (VIN T), TPI starts on 6E3-A-7 (VIN F & VIN 8).

Another edit: Comparing the knock sensors on RockAuto, they ARE, in fact, different part numbers. They do, however, both use 1/4"-18 thread, so they should be a direct swap. Not seeing any info about differences on the electrical side, but externally, they look identical. The 5.7 TPI knock sensor is about $10 more than the 3.1 one, which is a bit annoying, but not unexpected. Anyways, they should be able to just be swapped, and I'll just have the 3.1 one unplugged for testing purposes when I go to get it running on $8D initially. Not sure if a lack of knock sensor will cause it to not fire, but I suppose we'll find out when I can get around to it...