Hi guys,

I have a situation which i would appreciate some help on...

I went to go start my Camaro after the winter break and it was being reluctant to start. Not unusall but never the less it wouldn't start. We got a can of EZ-Start to attempt to get it firing. My dad was spraying it into the air filter element area and i was turning the ignition key. Still nothing. He then checked the distributor and ht leads. We noticed that the distributor was loose in terms of its not tight, it won't rotate but it just doesn't feel solid. After checking all the leads he then went to start it and nothing.

Before it was turning over and then it wouldn't. The syptoms are quite unusally. The battery is fine and fully charged. When you insert the the usual tone starts and all the dash lights EXCEPT the security light which doesn't come on at all. When you go to fully turn the key as though starting the engine nothing happens. There doesn't appear to be any current drain as none of the lights dim. The only thing which is noticable is the water temp guage goes all the way across.

I have started fault finding the circuit. I checked the starter enable relay and it is recieving the full 12v when the ignition key is turn all the way to start. I have also taken the cap off and found that the relay isn't activating. I've found this is the cause of the car isn't starting because i have manually closed the relay and found it to start turning over.

Now this leads me to think that the problem is the relay is not seeing a ground via the Passkey Decoder module.

Could someone shed some light regarding whether the Vats system can fail? Is there any legitimet way of bypassing the system? Could the Vats system be causing the car to not start even when it was turning over on its own steam (eg, its not allowing the fuel pump to work)?

Sorry for the long list of question, i'm not an automotive genius when it comes to circuit boards and the like.

Thanks for any help in advance. I really am slightly worried about having to dig out a module somewhere deep in the 90's dash.

Andy

 

If it was VATS, you would get nothing. I just went through this and it turned out to be my starter. $70 and an hour later I was back in business.

 

I'm not certain on your model year, however the 4th gen Fbody VATS systems
are very intrusive and lock out the fuel pump relay as well (among other things).

If you're suspecting the VATS system, try a spare key as the resistor pellet
my be damaged.

If you know the resistance value, you can tap into the harness and fool
the computer as a test. This will rule out the key and key barrell as being
defective.

The harness has two wires and run along the steering column and along
the underside of the dash in my, 96 Camaro and 2000 SS.

 

Sounds more like some other problem than Vats. VATS disables the Starter and the injectors, and probably the fuel pump as well, so when you turn the key, nothing should happen.

You can have an eprom burned with Vats disabled.

 

Sorry, should have been a bit more specific. Its a 1991 Camaro RS 5ltr TBI with autobox.

I'm ruling out the starter because i manually operated the relay and its started turning the engine over. So i know from the starter engage relay onwards its fine, I also think the link from the ignition barrel to the relay is ok because i've measured the voltage from the ignition which shows 12+volts when you turn the key past the on as though you're turning it over.

Just wanting to know if theres any test i can do to see if the vats system is working ok? Does anyone know if i just bypass the relay terminal which goes via the vats system to ground to turn the car over, will it still work?

Cheers

Andy

 

the wires at the lock cylinder could be bad as well.

 

Is there any access to these wires? Like removing the barrel or any part of the dash.

Does anyone know where the VATS module is located and if its a servicable item?

Cheers again. I'm really trying to fix, this. My father wants to sell it and is pretty miffed...

 

Check under the driver's side dash area for a two-wire harness.

It will be running along the steering column near the ignition wires, and
across to the passenger side of the vehicle.

 

Well just to fill you guys in...

Been on the phone to a service company who specialise in Camaros and Firebirds.

The tech reckons that, over the winter where it hasn't been started there is likely to have been a build up of corrosion in the distributor. I've noticed it myself when you open the hood that any dew or rain will drip directly on it. He reckons that, because of this, there hasn't been a good enough spark to get the car going. From our attempts at starting could have buggered the VATS, we're talking 20 plus turn overs to the point where the battery has drained twice so its fair likely eventually something will have given and it appears to have been the VATS.

Its a bit of a blow, as i would have liked to have repaired it myself but we're getting it shipped to him for a repair.

Its the only thing i don't like about working on cars, its more and more frequent that it'll be something electrical that'll fail. On the positive side its been a lurning curve for me in terms of fault finding a system, which is whats its all about

Cheers for the help guys!

Andy

 

>.< I wouldn't ship it anywhere to have it fixed.

Read up on VATS here.

All of your issues seem to be very user traceable. Currently your problem is either VATS or a bad solenoid on your starter. And if you had to crank it over so many times, either is possible. You could have fried the solenoid, or broken a wire on your VATS ignition switch. Both not hard to fix. You can pull the underdash panel, and with key in ignition, you should get a resistance between the two vats wires, but have continuity. If there was no continuity, broken wire at the switch. Replace, wash, rinse.

If there is continuity, check it throughout the whole motion of the switch. If there is STILL continuity, you might want to try shorting your solenoid instead of operating it manually (you made it sound as if when you had the cover off of it, you manually closed it, which doesn't prove that the solenoid works, the coil has to be able to pull it closed).

AFAIK, the VATS module doesn't break. The only fault I ever hear about VATS is the wires at the switch.

After fixing that, figure it this way. An engine has to have THREE things to continue to run. Air, Fuel, and Spark. To start it running, it needs an initial motion. When it was cranking, you got air and that initial motion. Get a spark tester from the local auto store. Shouldn't cost more than $10. You put one of your plug wires on it, and then attach it to ground. You should be able to see spark if you're getting spark. If not, change cap and rotor. It's cheap, and if "corrosion" is your problem, it should fix it. If you have spark, then you need to chase fuel.

Does the pump prime when you key on? VATS doesn't control that. VATS only controls injectors and the starter. If the pump doesn't prime, chase that circuit. If it does, you'll need to rent/buy a fuel pressure tester. TBI doesn't have a test port, so you'll need to T into the fuel line to test it. If you build up fuel pressure, then you know fuel is getting that far. If not, check for kinks in the line, or a clogged filter. As for testing the fuel injector, you should be able to hear it click. Someone who is more familiar with TBI might be able to interject here, as I mostly know TPI.

Just keep following through everything logically. Eventually you will limit it down to one final object that it has to be. And I'm sure it'll be cheaper than shipping it to "an expert."

 

The guy who is repairing it is well known on the scene for being a very reliable fixer of all things Pontiac and Chevy so i have a lot of confidence in him.

The reason that it got shipped to him is my knowledge is limited and from what i've gathered it is most definately an electrical fault somewhere deep in the car. Now i would love to spend time getting it all apart and fixing it but infortunately my weekends aren't long enough, and without a garage its ruddy cold too!

Nevertheless i've given it a good shot and know that at least we're not going to be led up a garden path if i'd just given it over.

Regarding the relay, i know the starter enable relay worked because i removed it and tested it on a PSU. It looks and works fine. The only reason for it not to work is because the ground which the relay works on it supplied via the VATS. Now i believe either the key isn't being read properly or the VATS has quit working. I must admit i would have liked to have checked the resistance first, but the car has gone now.

The thing about the distributor that really gets me is why o why did the GM engine have it put at the back?! Fords have them located at the front in easy access. Just to remove the cap you have to take the air filter apart. Madness...

Cheers again, really appreciate your advice.

Andy

 

It's one of the differences between a SBF and a SBC. In most Chevys the dizzy is more forward. Just in our cars they basically shoehorned the V8 in the car. The thirdgen was designed for the 2.5L 4 cylinder and the 2.8L v6. The 305 was an afterthought, and the 350 was a WAAAY afterthought.

Keep us updated on it.

So the starter enable relay worked, and that's a VATS part, but did the solenoid on the starter work? Tell us how it went when you get it back!

 

Will do buddy!

When i manually operated the relay once it was back in the circuit the car was turning over, just not firing. This is what led me to believe possible the VATS was at fault if it had control over the fuel pump. Since posting the thread though, i've been informed it primes on its own.

We're just seeing what he comes up with. Its pretty good timing though as we're repaving the drive so its one less car to move, although i'd rather it was working of course.

Cheers Again!

Andy

 

Hi Guys,

Just an update for anyone who may have been watching this thread.

We put the car in the shop and the guy had a look over. He said the distributor was pretty shot, loads of corrossion and a weak spark if any at all. He's rebuilt it and sorted that out. One job I'll do when we get it back is find a way of waterproofing it. I know its only going to happen again with a dewy morning start and checking fluids etc. That kinda explained the non-start situation.

Regards the VATS system, he noticed the Security light on the dash wasn't lighting at all. He used a VATS interigator key and got the car started. Nothing was wrong with the starter or solenoid. It was something regarding the key and either not being read or the VATS System losing its setting, he's basically fitted a new key and reader in the system which now works. It makes us a bit happier because we only had one key with a VATS chip in it, so its kinda nice to have a spare.


While there we asked him to fit a new fan as last season we noticed the motor had burnt out... not cool on a cue out of the track!

So we should be picking it up tomorrow afternoon, hoping the weather isn't too bad, then we should be good for a cruise.

Cheers for the help again guys, much appreciated, especially when specialists over here are far and few between.

Andy

 

VATS system is a resistor in the key and a reader in the ign. switch. below the dash along the collum there is an orange coated 2 wire loom with a black conector, this runs from the switch to the ecm. if you unpug this conector and wire in a resistor that matches the resistance with that of the chip in the key, you have bypassed the vats system completely. It is still operational, but it thinks the key is always in the ign. switch wich allows the car to start and run. that is how remote starts bypass this system to work.