92GTA

iTrader: (11)

It's time replace one of my power window motors again and I've been off the board for a few years so please bear with me...

Has anyone discovered yet a replacement power window motor that is as fast as new cars window motors are? Or maybe some place that sells modified window motors so they are that fast?

Thanks!

Alex

92GTA

iTrader: (11)

???

blacksunshine'91

iTrader: (10)

Good question Alex. I was wondering that myself. I just assumed mine were slow because they were old.

ghettocruiser

iTrader: (4)

I always assumed the slow windows were due partially poor wiring and heavy glass. Ive heard of people re-doing the wiring with heavier gauge wiring and relays.

If I had to guess, Ide say new motors, upgraded wiring/relays, and a good lube job on the mechanical parts would make a big improvement.

But if there are different motors to be used...I would certainly like to know about them too!

J.

Firebat

iTrader: (7)

More voltage would make them faster but it would also make them burn out faster. I've always wanted to try putting in 12v to 24 volt power supply and making them run off of 24V. Or higher. I don't know what there limits are.

Thicker gauge wire and relays will help some though, just like if you upgrade your harness for your headlights. But to make a big difference, higher voltage or modify an industrial motor to work.

ghettocruiser

iTrader: (4)

Ide bet if you did a wiring/relay upgrade, and ran the windows directly off the back of the alt...or battery you'd see a voltage increase for sure. I mean...I guess thats the point of doing the harness up grade. I know my headlights on my old car were seeing 10 volts

I can see the window motors getting the same way. I know its not a voltage increase like you are talking about though... I will say. There is a huge difference between my 86 and 87. My 87 had sluggish windows. My 86 windows go up really fast and consistant. Both will either be up or down at the same time as well. They are matched pretty good. The 86 was garage kept, and had like half the miles. So maybe that had something to do with it.

What about bumping the voltage up to 16-18 volts... Im not an electrical engineer so I dont know how you could do that. I wonder what the actual working voltage range of those motors is?

J.

Fullsizewagon

The original wiring is "good enough" when the mech & lube is fresh, but when it gets some age & wear it'll slow down the speed & hence the voltage too. I measured something like 7 Volts on my window motor once, that's half of what it should be, giving half the torque.. No doubt, a lube job + a wiring ugrade w/ relays will speed it up a whole lot, at least something like 2-4 times. I did just a lube job once and the speed went up from barely a creep to something like 3 seconds full travel. I'm sure the motors will stand up to 18V, and even 24, as they're only used for short bursts.

blue91z28cam

iTrader: (4)

just throwing an idea out there..could 4th gen window motors be used?

ramicio

iTrader: (-1)

I was thinking about rewiring my whole window system. Instead of the switches directly powering the motors I was going to run a large power source under the dash to both the driver's side and passenger side, put 2 relays on each side, and grab some motors from a junk yard and rewind them with larger wire.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

I've already done the rewiring of the system using the window motors that I've had for years (passenger's side only a couple years old, however).

I run an 8ga wire from the battery to a separate fuse panel which has individual circuit breakers for each window motor (and also feeds the hatch motor due to dash swap but that's irrelevant). Each breaker feeds a pair of relays (one up, one down, can also be done with a DPDT relay but those are expensive compared to the usual relays) through 10 gauge wires. The relays are wired so that they're constantly grounding both motor terminals until one relay coil is turned on by the switch (of which I am using a master window switch from an 88-mid 90s Grand Prix), which allows juice to flow through the motor on its respective wire and back to ground through the other relay.

I'd have to say that I don't think I need to replace the driver's side motor any more. It's almost as fast as the passenger's side that has the 20-year newer motor (old motor was toast and needed to be replaced). I could use a little more lube on the tracks but the windows are cruising compared to how they used to be...

The hardest part of the swap is getting the relay coil control wires cut right so that they're long enough to ground to the body inside the car.

ramicio

iTrader: (-1)

It could be done with DPDT relays, but I don't see how it could be done with just DPDT relays. I've not found any that are polarity-specific and have some kind of neutral position where all contacts are open. In that case, one would still need a second relay just to cut power to the second DPDT relay. If such a relay did exist, it would be super simple to do this. The relay could just take the place of the motor and the only wiring needed would be beefier power to the relay and to the motor.

knight72

amps increase is more important than going over 13.8v

ramicio

iTrader: (-1)

Thin wire reduces voltage because it's more resistive as amperes increase. At the window motors it's highly unlikely they're seeing battery voltage. I doubt it's even 10 volts. When a motor is under heavy load and it's receiving a lower voltage than it's designed for it's going to wear out quicker and will be more likely to trip the thermal protection inside.

NINÅ

ramicio

iTrader: (-1)

We're talking about the wiring going to the motor. Yes, you can increase the amperage going through a motor without increasing the voltage...it's called rewinding it, and we're then not talking about the same motor.

89mulletbird

iTrader: (4)

I "believe" that all the motor current goes through the switches in the center console, since the wires are so massive going to the switches. Make sure the contacts on the switches are nice and clean. On another note, installing some relays that have a nice power feed in the kick panels should bypass the horrible GM wiring.

ramicio

iTrader: (-1)

The switches are what control the motors directly. It's insane even though the wire is a little thicker.

zenish

it seems to me the relays are only needed for the up side.gravity helps on the down side.

NINÅ

Jonesyfxr

iTrader: (2)

I went to SEMA last year and spoke in length to the painless rep. They designed, with the help of nastyz28 members, a new power window harness incorporating relays. It makes the motors move faster.

A brief excerpt on what a relay does. It supplies the proper voltage AND current to a device to prevent it from burning out. Therefore, if you upped the voltage and current to a power window motor, it would actually lengthen the life of the motor.

I plan on doing this to my 85 Iroc. When I do I will post up pics.

5215

iTrader: (2)

Oh wow! I had no idea this was out there. Please post up pics when you do yours. I am VERY interested in this. Going to Painless' website now to search for this.

Thank you!

Jonesyfxr

iTrader: (2)

It's also on Nastyz28.com

5215

iTrader: (2)

Damn, I couldn't find the info anywhere on the Painless site or at NastyZ28.com. Would you mind posting a link if you have one? I know that is a pain in the a$$...I did search all over though. If not, no worries. I'll wait for your pics!

Jonesyfxr

iTrader: (2)

Here you go.....

http://www.nastyz28.com/forum/showthread.php?t=238701

5215

iTrader: (2)

THANK YOU, Jonesyfxr! I really appreciate the info. This may be a silly question, is this harness something that can be applied universally to a 3rd gen? Thanks buddy for taking the time to followup with this all for me!

Spaceboy1980

iTrader: (6)

Adding relays does not need a secondary harness, just some knowledge. I added them to my windows and it is a big improvement. When I had one side done I raced them against each other. The side with the relays went up and down in the time the other made it down and was just starting back up. I would guess it at about 35% improvement in speed.

I used 12g wire and got my hot wire from the starter to hide it. I soldered in a length of fuseable link wire before connecting it to the starter. I brought my wire in through the grommet in the firewall by the steering column. The way I did this was to solder my wire to a length of welding wire. I threaded the welding wire through and then lubed up the 12g wire with WD40 and pulled it through. From there it's just a matter of finding the wires in the door jambs and splicing in the relays.

86_irocz-28

anybody got a part number on the relays?

Jonesyfxr

iTrader: (2)

You can use regular Bosch relays. They sell for like $5 each at the parts store. You need four relays, two for up and two for down. I was going to bury them in the console, right at the switches. You can grab power really from anywhere, I think the lighter would be a goog constant or possibly the constant behind the radio?

I just had my tonsils out, so I feel like complete poop! I will get after her when I start feeling better....I promise!

Spaceboy1980

iTrader: (6)

Grabbing the power from anywhere defeats the purpose of adding relays. You are still going through about 16g wire that is also passing through who knows what. On the windows as they are they pass through a circuit breaker, the fuse box, the switches, another circuit breaker, then the motor. You can bypass all of that but the last breaker using relays as well as increasing your wire gauge.

Be sure to use 5 pole relays. You cannot use 4 pole because they have to rest on a grounded source.

TraviZ

iTrader: (2)

Spacecowboy is correct, do not listen to Jonesyfxr, he is incorrect, do not just grab power from anywhere, Grab power directly from the battery for the relay mod otherwise you are bypassing the factory power wire for another equally inefficient power source.

Jonesyfxr

iTrader: (2)

First off, let me correct my prior information by stating you can grab power from another source, as long as you have the proper voltage feeding your relays. This means a constant source, that has as close to alternator voltage as possible, 14 volts or higher would be best.

I just added relays to a 69 Delta 98 convertible that is as close to a factory restoration as you can get. The owner didn't want any wires visible in the engine bay. So I grabbed power at the column to feed into both doors, where the relays are hidden. The feed tested at 14.2 volts with the car running and works both windows faster than they ran out of the factory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relay

Spaceboy1980

iTrader: (6)

I'm sorry, but that is still wrong information. Sure your feed tested 14.2 volts but as soon as you apply the window you will have significant voltage drop. The windows were only faster because you cut the switches out of the circuit, but you still have light gauge wire and everything else your column wire runs through before the relays.

I'm not wanting to argue, I'm just stating this so misinformation isn't spread.

Jonesyfxr

iTrader: (2)

I haven't looked at the wiring on my car since I've only had it a week and am currently out of commission from a surgery. When I re wire my windows I'll do a complete write up.

There's almost always a larger diameter feed wire inside the car where you can get the proper current and voltage from.

A little history on my wiring experience. I started working at a local car audio shop back in the mid to late 90's. I then moved on to wiring local fire chief vehicles. Now I wire limos and limo buses. I have 25 years experience wiring all sorts of 12 volt systems. I also am on call for other limo companies in my area.

Jonesyfxr

iTrader: (2)

I just want to apologize in advance, I'm not trying to argue either. I'm just not happy cuz I'm laid up and can't do anything for two to three weeks. So, I'm kinda going stir crazy and it's only been three days!

Spaceboy1980

iTrader: (6)

It's okay, please don't feel like I was calling you out I just don't want misinformation spread. It wasn't a personal thing and what you did on the Olds matched your customer's instruction (always make the customer happy) it's just not optimal.

Jonesyfxr

iTrader: (2)

Here's how you wire your relays boys n girls. It's for a 2nd gen, but same exact way to wire yours.....

http://s258.photobucket.com/user/bag...lee01.jpg.html

zenish

that should work though i wonder why he [she] replaced the circuit breaker with a fuse.

Jonesyfxr

iTrader: (2)

A circuit breaker is a slow blowing device. A fuse will burn faster, hence better protection of your circuitry.

NINÅ

mwfrels

NINA, I am four months late to this party but could I please restart it? I just got my '86 back from new paint so it is still gutted. Upgrading the wiring for the windows and locks was on my re-assemble check list. I found this thread via search but I am still looking with no luck for a circuit diagram for polarity switching with dedicated power per your warning. Can you help?

M

MoJoe

iTrader: (5)

@mwfrels - This diagram, linked above, IS correct for our two wire window motors. (- - to sit in place, + - to go up, and - + to go down).

Try this: Start with the factory power window harness. Find a suitable place to locate the relays, such as the console or kick panel area. Cut one wire, attach the switch side wire to the contact (IIRC #86 terminal) of the relay. Attach the motor side wire to the common output (#30). Wire the trigger ground (#85) and the NC contact (Normally Closed = #87a) to a good ground source. Wire the NO contact (Normally Open = #87) with a large gauge wire (8ga) with a 20A fuse to a good power source: the battery, alternator or starter.
Repeat for the other 3 wires.

When at rest, the relays are in the "Normally Closed" position, and #30 connects to #87a... all wires to the power window motors are grounded. Push any switch, and that one relay #86 gets +12V across to #85 for a ground, and does its "relay" thing = #30 now gets the +12V to +14V from #87(battery) sending power to one side of the motor.

zenish

on my car i ran a ten guage wire from a mini fuse panel i mounted at the battery.for some reason the window switches on my car both had separate feeds.i cut both and tied the ten gauge wire directly to the feeds to the switches.i capped off the factory feeds.this will make your windows work even when the switch is off which is how i like it.

mwfrels

After I printed out the diagram and sketched the mod you described it made perfect sense. Pretty much the only changes to the diagram are to fuse the new supply power and tying all the #87a terminals together and to ground same in the same fashion as the #85s are wired. And of course skip the part about running the new motor ground as our door motors are not wired that way.

Thanks, M

jharrison5

I always thought the reason the windows were slow was simply because new cars use a cable driven system and ours are a screw drive system.

1991sleeper

iTrader: (-3)

Hell I put a new motor on the driver side and it's twice as fast as the passenger side now lol

formula1LE

iTrader: (3)

I have an express down window relay upgrade harness available if anybody is interested. I'll be posting it in the For Sale section but it gives you the Express feature AND converts your switches from providing amperage to acting as a ground trigger for the new commercial grade relays-and, it uses your factory wiring already present in the center console. PM for details.

formula1LE

iTrader: (3)

I also have just the modules available with a harness extension and labelled wiring for those who feel comfortable making their own relay kits with it or adding it as-is. As-is, it's very easy to splice in-just four wires to run per window and can be done at your switch location under the console. PM if interested.

IWANNAROCAGAIN

interested, whats this involve? is it plug n play?

formula1LE

iTrader: (3)

It's a harness that is designed to be spliced and replaces the wiring at the window switches underneath the center console. My harness is labelled, is color coded to match up with the OEM wires and includes an illustrated diagram to follow-its very easy to integrate.

formula1LE

iTrader: (3)

The 12ga PNK power lead comes directly from the fuse panel with a circuit breaker protected 30A ACC circuit so this can be used to power both the relays and the Express Down modules. Imo, if one is to go through the effort to convert to relay triggered relays, why not add the Express Down module? This way, your windows can be lowered with a quick touch of the stock window switch just like a new vehicle.