I did read.Some ask the question,no one answered.If I have a vats problem,will my motor turn over when I try to start it?will it start to run then die right after start? I have tested the starter,checked for 12v on wires coming off juction block and at starter.Either I got vats trouble,a park safty switch bad starter enable relay or ignition switch bad.I'm geting lights and gauges.but nothing at all when I turn the key.there was at least a sound the first few times I tryed.It's a 90 305tbi formula.Been sitting for a few years.got it 2 weeks ago and trying to get to the bottom of why it's not running.I'm going to try putting a starter button on it only for trouble shooting purposes.I want to fix it right.I have a 91 rs I can steal the parts off.

 

little more info.I have no security light flashing.dont remember ever seeing one.I hooked up a starter button in the engine compartment.It will turn over.no injector pulse.so I went to raidio shack and got the resister and cut the 2 white wires and sodered the resister in.still no security light and no crank from inside the car.went ahead and cranked it from outside withe key on,used starting fluid and it starts but only as long as the spray last.Now I havn't knocked my chip out of my key yet.partly because I have no security light to start with. I'm going to make sure my fuel pump is good.But correct me if i'm wrong,Dosen't it sorta sound like the ecm?I got gauges from what I can tell.fuel volts stuff like that.Little help please

 

VATS disables your fuel pump, injectors, and starter. If you have all three problems i would say 99% its a VATS problem. Happened in my 90 IROC. Remember, you need to measure the resistance through the chip in your key with a multimeter, and DO NOT touch the key with your hands while you do it, it throws off the reading.

then go to radioshack and get a resistor, I needed to solder two together to make one that properly matched the chip in my key. Use your meter and check the resistor you are going to use and make sure it matches the key, they arent always EXACTLY the resistance they are advertised at, especially from radioshack.

also, you dont need to remove the chip from your key

 

Or you can get a custom chip from our vendor TunedPerformance. He'll disable VATS through the bin file. Then you wont have to modify anything. Contact him for further info. https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/member.php?u=138103

 

try try again.I sodered the resister in.my key reads 679-680.so got a 680 from radio shack.did do anything so I put it back the way it was.Now I need to read the resister and make sure it was good.Put a starter switch in on the colum.that was a bi... and that didnt help.put a park safty switch,no help.conected the tan white andbig yellow wires on the starter enable relay,now it will turn over with the key.If I got a vats issue would that work now?still no injectors.still gota try the fuel pump test.there are 2 pigtails coming out of the colum.I figure one in input the other output.any way,when I put that resister in the car I cut one wire on each pigtail and sodered that 680 inbetween the to wires.I read some where if you vats bypass you gota bypass the starter relay.this right?there are 2 small wires on the relay.do I wire them together?Do I need to put that resister back in with relay jumped?thanks for your input guys

 

Sounds like your splitting your cranium. Contact TunedPerformance. He will help you out. He will also give you options where you wanna tackle your issue, or go with a custom chip. Becareful with a member named "ninetyone". He likes to do shaddy sales and his specialty is soliciting, which is not allowed on TGO. None the less, he ain't supposed to be selling to make a profit.

 

Maybe.

Yes

All the above but most likely VATS related seeing it won't continue to run ( no inj pulse ) when you spray it

 

VATS has no effect on the fuel pump
Read
https://www.thirdgen.org/vats_passkey_system

Only serves to fool the VATS module into" thinking " the correct key is being used.
If the module is faulty ( or wiring / connectors ) then resistors have no effect ; ditto a faulty starter enable relay operated by the module

Only takes out the need for the ECM to see the fuel enable signal from the VATS module
You still have to manually bypass the starter enable relay for the starter to function

 

ive heard people say that VATS has no effect on the fuel pump, but in my case, the fuel pump would not run with my VATS issue, as soon as I bypassed the the key the starter, pump, and injectors all functioned again

 

Any one can say this and that. The fact is that many 3rd gen owners are NOT the original owners. With that said, the new owner can find a quick fix and say "I did this and it worked" without realizing that all they did was modify or change an already modified issue. So,,,, to clear things up, I'll look into my GM Camaro Shop manual and see what exactly is affected in relation to VATS.

 

I just noticed vetteoz answered many questions. I personally wouldn't second guess vetteoz. He knows his stuff.

 

 

Not to keep from getting help,I got another pass key modual with a different code out of a 91 rs. also have the pcm and the key and steering colum.But trying not to use that stuff.

 

hey my 85 firebird wont turn over either i dont know if its a vats problem or not but i had the starter tested came out perfect wiring is the same as when i bought it and it use to run any ideas?

 

85 does not have vats, if the starter isn't cranking check for power to to start s terminal of the solonoid and back through the neutral safety switch back to the ignition switch.

 

where is the pass code box located on the formula?I got both driver and pass. panels off and cant see it.I've taken a firebird apart before but cant remember.above radio pod?

 

It's located behind the defrost vent(duct) area. It was not intended to be easy to get to. Start pulling the dash.
#28

 

Don't need most of that
If you change the VATS module , all you need is a key with the correct resistance.PERIOD.
Get a blank GM key with the correct resistor chip and have it cut to suit your existing lock .No need to touch the column
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/VATS-OEM-...item1e6dd27dae

FWIW.
The ECM is not related to the module.
If you read the VATS operation link I posted above ; all the module does is to ground ( in special way ) a signal wire from the ECM ( any ECM )
to tell it it is OK to fire the injectors.You can swap in any ECM without touching the VATS system
The module also closes the starter enable relay to allow the starter to work

 

Ok,this is helping! Sounds like if I get the new prom/chip,I only have to permanatly conect my starter enable relay.I've got a temperrary jump wire from tan/white to yellow large wire.then tied the 2 smaller wires together.Is that part right? Oh yes and wait for the buisness stuff to happen to get my part.Or take out my dash and install one of my extra modules(I got two with keys so I know there code)Then get a new key made or put a resister inbetween the 2small white wires I tryed to before.This is a t-top car that sat for some time with a leak for who knows how long.

 

VATS module is located above the top left rear corner of the radio pod and is bolted to the center dash duct (in the pic above, the mounting space is above the numbers 15 and 16). Only way to get at the mounting screws is to remove the dash and the center duct. However, this will not stop you from merely disconnecting it to temporarily connect up the other module. The connector points down and towards the center of the foot well.

Bypassing the starter relay, to make sure the rest of the system works, is as easy as finding the relay and jumping the large YELLOW wire to the large GREEN wire. IIRC, the starter relay should be bolted to the dash support to the left of the steering column.

Also, might want to change the SECURITY light bulb in the cluster... Sounds like it's probably dead.

 

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tech...-i-bypass.html

 

pm sent

 

hey thanks for the info but it still wont crank starter brand new does the distributer have to be hooked up for it to crank?

 

I had same problem with my 92 RS, would not do anything key and switch were worn out when I purchased the car. Went to local dealer and explained my issue and could it be related to a vatts issue with worn out key. Dealer confirmed my fears and 120 dollars and two days later car was running fine with new switch. Just make sure you take a key so they can read your Vatts code.

 

OK,I tryed the resister inbetween the 2 white wires.Had a new prom to tune out the vats intirerly and jumped my starter enable relay,Turns over like before but nothing else.only runs on starter fluid.Had the ignition module checked out and tested good. still have to test fuel pump to make sure its working.I've replaced the park safty switch,the ignition switch on the lower top side of colume. havn't changed the key switch or pass code box out yet because aim hoping the prom tune took care of that area.If it isnt vats it's got to be 2 things wrong.fuel delivery and starter enable relay.Pump or relay bad.cloged filter!somthing like that.Maybe even a broken wire.Am I missing anything?

 

It seems you don't have fuel delivery...

FYI, one of the first things that should be done when you try to start an engine that's been sitting forever is to change the fuel filter and try to get as much of the dead gas out as possible. Fuel turns to gum if it's too old, and that gum clogs the filter and other things (like the fuel injector inlet screens).

Starter enable relay has nothing to do with fuel delivery... If the SECURITY light goes off after about 3 seconds when you first turn the key on, there isn't an issue unless the relay is toast, and cranking shouldn't be an issue.

 

fuel pump works at pig tail in back where it comes out of the tank.I know I needed to pull the tank and clean it.I just wanted to do a quick start up.When I first got it here i turned it over just a little. But then nothing. had to jump the S.E.R. just to get it to turn over. I will pul the filter after supper and see whats there.There is no G terminal in aldl and no fuel pup fues in fuse block.which is FP relay in this.My Haynes manuel has about nothing on tbi stuff.mostly tpi

 

The fuel pump fuse isn't in the fuse panel... It's behind the passenger's side headlights. And pulling it isn't going to do a thing but cut the constant power to the ECM and to the fuel pump. The ECM is working, so it's a safe bet the fuse is good.

The fuel pump relay is the one with the orange, green/white, gray (not tan as in the earlier cars), black/white, and possibly red wires attached (may not have a red wire or it will be very short and terminate in a one pin gray connector).

 

it cant be a park safty switch bad starter enable relay or ignition switch if it turns over. If it has been flashed to remove VATS then you clearly have a fuel problem. Invest in a set of injector test lights and verify that you have injector pulse and have someone listen by the tank when you turn the key on to verify your pump is working, either that or unhook the fuel line going into the throttle body and turn the key on and see if fuel comes out.

 

ego,the only way I was able to get it to turn over was by jumping the starter enable relay.before I did that I had to install a push button to test my starter and such.now this car did crank some the first time I tryed.was wanting to clean the tank b4 I tried to start it.But the town got on me for tomany projects and parts scatered around my yard.I was hoping it might have fixed quickly so I could move it under its own power. Fuel pump dose work with 12v put directly into the pigtail going into the tank.I can hear it run.dont think so when I turn the key. my security light never comes on.dont even know where it's located on the panel.Maveric,how do you know my ecm is working?I did check a 20 amp fues buy the battery which is on the drivers side.It was good.

 

If I use injector test lights and theres not a signal to them they wont work.can I test the injectors out of the car?

 

turn the key to the accessory position and jump the aldl a to b the check engine light should just blink a code 12 three times if the ecm is powered up. is there power red and the white wire at the injector plug with the key on ?

 

thanks,I can do that.How hard is it to turn a 90 tbi into a 88 set up.what would have to come out and what put back in?

 

After 33 posts in this thread , I think that question justifies a new thread
given it has no real relevance to this problem

 

Do you mean put the ecm from a 88 tbi in ? If so the 88 ecm is a odd ball one
Year only 1228063 it is a direct fit instead of the 89-92 1228746 and the prom that is in it would no have vats.

 

vetteoz,didnt mean to upset anyone.I know there is a reason that it's not working and I'm just hard headed enuff to keep on trying.But it did cross my mind.Tried checking the injectors,I dont have a test light so I put my meter on volts and turn the key to run.I did get readings.meter on 20 got readings from 1.2 down to .20.depended on how I held it.checked the relay for volts to.well the wires unhooked.orange wire gives 12 the rest read 1.unhooked the fuel line at the engine side of filter.lota pressure in the line.Didconected in engine bay and turned the key to run,nothing.

 

OK, put a jump wire in first 2 conectors from left to right top row of aldl.nothing,Only thing been flashing when I turn the key on is inflatable restaint.my brake light because my e brake is on.thats about it.Going to recheck fuse box.any other hiden fuses?

 

looked at the book and see I didnt use the right 2 ports.hope I didnt screw anything up.I finaly have a service or check engine light.with key on light stays on security light came on and went off.may need to go through my fuse box and clean all contacts up good.the ecm fuse wasnt getting a very good conection.anyway,jumped first 2 pins starting at right.never got one long two short code.keep giving me two long one short flash,paused and keep doing it.more than 3 times.no other codes flashed.not even the 12 code.buy the was,earlyer I did try the ecm out of a 92 rs with tbi.made no diff.auto zone dont carry noid lights.can I make one?Thanks for everyones help so far,I need to be working on another project I'm almost done with,but this has got me buy the ba..s and I cant let it lay.

 

A 1k resister and led will work for a noid light.

http://www.autozone.com/autozone/acc...ntifier=948078

 

gotcha,thanks

 

Forget the noid light. If you have a test light, hook it up so that the clip is attached to a battery power source and probe the wires at the injectors that ARE NOT powered. If the light flashes with the engine cranking, you have a signal.

If you're absolutely positive you're not getting fuel at the engine but you are at the filter (I hope you replaced it while you were down there), then you need to disconnect the pressure line from the TBI and the OUT end of the filter and use compressed air to blow the line out.

 

I did ick up anoid light kit to have n hand.Thanks maverick,I will do both of your points. I'm going to purge all the gas out of the tank blow the line out like yo said. I know the pump works in the tank,But didnt have he line out on the filter off at that pint.just put 12v to pig.after getting ba. out of area loosened he filter out line and plenty of pressure was on lne.conected and disconected both in and return line in egine bay and turn key on and turned engine over and no uel came out with half tank of gas.I'm also going to clean up my fuse box conections this weekend.If got any kind of check engine light dose that mean I have ecm power?

 

If the check engine light comes on with the key to the accessory position the ecm is powered up .

 

darn,I had it in the run possition when I did the jump wire on the A and B pins in ALDL.I didn't crank it though. I will have to try that sence I cleaned them contact serfaces on the fuse.

 

Tryed it,no light.Not even with the jump wire.I get a light in run only.

 

Any Progress ?

 

not at this time,had so much stuff to move and so little time to do it,I had to stop all work on everything and get it moved around and cleaned up.I did get a noid light test set.should be able to put power back in and test the pins u gave me for power to the ecm.Will check first,then clean the fuse box,I just want to see what I get before and after I clean it.The PO swears it was running when parked.I should post a pic of the change I found inside this car.The quarters are so covered with carosion you cant tell what they are.I will get it though,even if I gota pull the whole wiring harness and put a new one in,

 

Bad deal, hope you make some progress soon.

 

personally, at this point I would have already put a carburetor on it, but im one of those people that dont mind daily driving a carbed car

 

Lets keep on track and give good advice. No need to stray away from the topic and add insult to injury.