nater

im not sure if this i where this should go, so move it if necessary. and im sure i am going to get hell for this one, but its my car so i dont really care.

alright so i have owned this Frankenstein of a berlinetta since high school. the body is rough, the tranny does weird things, the front clip is crooked from a previous owners wreck, and the subframe is rusted through and cracked in multiple places, not to mention the suspension is shot. needless to say when something is wrong with it my dad hates helping me work on it as he feels like its too far gone and a waste of time. i love my camaro but the chassis is to the point that its almost not drivable. i have a blazer as my daily driver, so the camaro has become more of a project. well my dad found another car with a good chassis and body(with ttops) but it is not a berlinetta. so here is what i want to know. what would i have to do to the non berlinetta to clone it into a berlinetta? specifically the electronics side of things. it is most likely getting the motor from the berlinetta so that should help i would think. i know many of the bolt on things that need swapped to make it appear like a berlinetta, but altering the wiring to make the digital camaro part of it function is what i need to know. i also have a set of power mirrors from a berlinetta that i would like to add in as well but my current berlinetta doesnt have the wiring in the harness.

John in RI

iTrader: (167)

You'd need to pull everything from the interior of the Berlinetta and install it into the other car. To name a few things this includes the Dash Housing ( and ALL components), the Steering Column, Center Console, Internal Heater Core Box ( and the 3 HVAC relays solenoids screwed to it), the HVAC wiring harness. ( and you'll need to wire in an electric Speed sensor if not using the Berlinetta Engine harness )

Best car to clone would be an 84-87 ( preferably carb ) because those cars had an engine wiring harness that is very similar to that of the Berlinetta. The Berlinetta Dash C100 connector will bolt directly to the 84-87 Sports Coupe / Z28 carb engine harness but the wiper motor wiring is not compatible @ C100 & must be re-pinned / or spliced spliced. ( TPI / MPFI harnesses are similar to carb during equal production years, but there are minor modifications needed if mating those harnesses to a Berlinetta dash housing )

nater

i figured it would be most of the interior. i belive the car is a 89+ rs, but i dont know much more than that as i am away at college and havent been home to see it. i just have one side view picture, from where my dad picked it up. it doesnt have a motor i know that much so the motor from the berlinetta is going in it. and i can probably swap the wiring harness while im at it. is the dash housing, stearing column, and heater core that much diferent from the others? i know the heater core box is diferent with the elctronics, but the core from the berlinetta is bad so would the other cars core still work with the berlinetta box? i know the instrument cluster hast to change over, but does the rest of the plastic parts of the dash have that many diferences? last time i had the steering column apart i didnt see anything that looked drasticaly diferent than other vehicles, so why does it need swapped? is it just easyer than swapping out the multifunction lever, or did i miss something else important? do i have to worry about vats if im changing everything out?

John in RI

iTrader: (167)

Using the engine and engine harness from the Berlinetta will make things a lot easier..... Easier than trying to make the 84 dash harness match the 89 engine harness anyway.

The dash housing is completely different; if you own a Berlinetta you should have picked up on that !! Can't just install a Coupe/Z28 style cluster into a Berlinetta. The only things similar to a "regular" Camaro dash housing are the 2 speakers and the "hush" panels. The Berlinetta AC heater core BOX is basically the same as the Coupe version, but the Berlinetta heater box has the electrical HVAC system screwed to it. Since the entire dash housing HAS to go, and since the HVAC wiring harness HAS to go,...... why not pull the heater core box out just to keep things simple. ( I'm not sure if the relays will screw to a "regular" Camaro heater core box, I always swapped the whole box when converting/cloning. ) Any Heater core will fit into any other Thirdgen,... as long as it's the same type of HVAC system. (Non-ac heater core box is NOT the same as a AC heater core box; so the AC heater core and non-AC heater core are probably different too. )


Steering column,..... Guess you could use the Sports Coupe version, but you probably have to do some custom wiring to get the blinker Cancel Cam functioning and you would loose SWC Cruise Control ( if your car has it ).

VATS; if your using an 84 Carb engine with the factory 84 Carb engine wiring,.... VATS will not be an issue.

nater

ok that helps quite a bit, just figured id double check some things and and make sure i dont miss anything. i guess on the dash housing i was thinking it had multiple parts, but i think i just had a brain fart. it does sound like just swapping most of it will be easiest. is the dash pad any different? how does the overhead console differ from the coupe to ttop models? the "new" body does have ttops(berli does not) and at least rs ground effects so i am assuming it is an rs.
from my understanding, what usually kills the dashes is heat, moisture, or the damn interior lighting dimmer switch failing right? i was wondering if adding some pc fans around the vents in the instrument cluster would help with the heat any? same on the radio? could the dimmer switch be replaced by a rotary potentiometer? and would that be able to be wired in separate or does it have to be soldered to the circuit board? i am currently a computer science major so i am starting to understand the circuit boards in this thing a little bit better but im not 100% sure. i also understand that the mileage, rev, and speed limiters in the dash are in the small eeprom in the socket on the back of the dash. is this right? and has anyone ever tried to re-flash the eeprom to change the speed limiter, or the mileage when swapping? has anyone ever changed the color of the display with some type of tint? if so where do you get it?
i think thats it for now.

nater

so a bit of an update finaly got around to checking out the new body, and found out quite a bit. the new body is a 91 or 92 rs that had a tbi 305 and ttops. it came with all but the block of the original motor, and only one wire was cut and thats to the aftermarket fan. so the new plan is to swap bolcks from the berlinetta but convert it to tbi, so none of the engine wiring will get changed if possible but i do still want to make it into a berlinetta. its basicaly going to be half and half.

can i use the vss from the tbi for the berlinetta speed buffer?
can the tbi speed limiter be tuned out of the ecm?
will i have to worry about the cam from the berli motor(which i dont think is stock) playing nice with the tbi system?
wile im probably going to rebuild the motor when i do it, if i find out the block for the berli is a 350 not a 305 will that cause any problems?
anything im missing?

John in RI

iTrader: (167)

The chip on the back of the cluster stores the Odometer Mileage, That's it. No (known) way to change the Speed readout to read above 85 without flashing and no way to "tweak" the RPM reading. The mileage can be changed by simply swapping in another chip with different mileage reading stored on it.

The Berlinetta Speedo Buffer and the TBI Buffer are the same part.

Joining the TBI engine harness to the Berlinetta dash harness isn't going to be plug-&-Play. ( Sooooo much simpler to stay carb and re-use the Berlinetta Engine harness. ) Your going to have a lot of 'home work' to do to be sure that you get all the connections properly re-pinned (or spliced) at the C100 connector as well as some fuse-box work. ( No Injector fuses, no fan fuses, no Fuel Pump fuses, ect.... ) Let's not forget that you'll also need to add an electric fuel pump for that TBI too.

91 C100 & Fusebox:
1991Camaro
C100 Firewall (A):
http://berlinetta.info/media/shopman...0Camaro91a.jpg
C100 Firewall (B):
http://berlinetta.info/media/shopman...0Camaro91b.jpg
Fuse Box :
http://berlinetta.info/media/shopman...seCamaro91.jpg


84 Berlinetta C100 & Fusebox:
1984 Camaro
C100 Firewall Coupe, Z28:
http://berlinetta.info/media/shopman...00Camaro84.jpg
C100 Firewall Berlinetta:
http://berlinetta.info/media/shopman...Berlinetta.jpg
Fuse Box :
http://berlinetta.info/media/shopman...seCamaro84.jpg

nater

well the tbi system is in the new body complete and it was running perfectly when the previous owner pulled the motor and sold the body to us. i have everything from that motor besides block and heads. the only mechanical part of the berlinetta ill be swapping is the block and maybe heads. the intake and all that from the tbi motor would go on the block from the berinetta, or at least thats the tentative plan as of right now. the car should theoretically run the tbi-ed berli motor just fine without any modification to the new body.

now on swapping the instrument cluster would the wiring for the berlinetta cluster be anywhere close to that of the digital clusters of the late 80s-early90s s10 blazer? i read somewhere that someone thought the s10 clusters(digital and analog) would bolt right into the standard dash in the fbody with minor modding. i do have a source for transplanting a s10 blazer digital cluster into a analog equipped dash.

here is the link
http://people.oregonstate.edu/~akeym/s10.html

is this close(likly slightly different pin out but still)? or am i way off. so far as i can tell the only thing to have to worry about is the connector being pinned right and vss output(which you said should be the same) so it sounds as though all i have to do is repin the connector correctly and be done as far as wiring goes.

John in RI

iTrader: (167)

The 88+ TBI intake will not fit on the Berlinetta '416' heads without customization. ( Drilling the middle intake holes )

No, it will not. Well; I guess that depends on your definition of "minor modding ". The link you posted was a S10 digital cluster swap into a S10 with analog cluster,.... VERY different than taking the cluster from 1 car and trying to make it work in a totally different vehicle.

Your kinda' all over the place,... closer to "way off" then "close". Rather than making the swap/conversion as simple/ straight-forward as possible - your making it quite complicated. If your desire is to create a Berlinetta clone,... re-read my first post in this thread.

nater

ya i know the link is s10 to s10 i was wondering if the wiring and concept were anywhere near the same. the motor from the berli is getting a rebuild no matter what, and i am kinda leaning towards the tbi as it is completely there and it will be very similar tuning wise to the 94 blazer i also own. the blazer has the digital dash thats why i asked if it would be a similarly easy swap on a camaro, as having the the dash on the blazer in front of me makes that swap feel easy but i havent pulled apart the dash from the new body camaro to compare the physical parts to the berlinetta. basically the link here makes it sound a bit easier than i originally thought, and your expertise fills in some of the gaps, its not as easy as the s10 but its not like ill be creating a harness from scratch just splicing two together.

in your first reply you said minor modifications would need to be made for tpi/mpfi harness for the berlinetta dash, bust from the research i have done so far it seems like even the later model tbi harness is closer to the harness of the carb than the tpi. but maybe i am misunderstanding it.

i can see that the heat/ac stuff will need complete changes, and the turn signals and lights might be kinda wonky. but seeing as most of the inputs from the tbi appear to be the same at the dash whether its digital or analog, so long as its electric speedo. is that right so far?

so long as i have the right pin-outs for both dashes, i shouldnt have to do much more than repin the dash connector. right? at least to get the instrument cluster working anyway, that would be my first step i feel. obviously there will be a few wires missing without the light pod done.

was i right about the heat killing the berli clusters? would a cooling fan help?

from what i have seen there are a few work arounds for the head and intake thing, but i also have a known good 350 vortec motor and trans from a 97 tahoe. would it be easier to do the berli motor, which i assume is the original 305 with a performance cam, or to swap the 350 to a tbi intake and swap the tail-shaft of the 4l60e? maybe i should post this question on the engine swap board?

after looking the car over in person it will need much of the interior from the berlinetta anyway, as its been half gutted and the other half is water damaged due to it having sat with no ttop seals. its in a barn now and will be worked over the weekends when i have time.

this car is no longer my daily driver so it not like this needs done tomorrow. hell it might not be even to the point of running by the end of the year, let alone being a roadworthy berlinetta rs. so if i do decide to go tbi for sure, then this will no longer be a strait forward easy swap nor would this be a true berlinetta clone. but if i can get some of it to work i will be happy with my car.

believe me i am reading and listening to what you have to say, and i respect that you are definitely the resident expert and you have helped me a lot so far. but this does seem to be getting a little into uncharted waters, and i may not fully be explaining the situation or my ideas about it in a way thats understandable by other, more normal thinking people. haha. anyway thank you for your help so far hopefully i can get the engine figured out soon so as to be able to start on the berlinetta part of the project.

John in RI

iTrader: (167)

This is kinda' a moot point. TPI, MPFI, or TBI,... A carb cars fusebox doesn't have injector fuses, an electric fuel pump fuse/relay/wiring, electric Fans or some other things that fuel injection requires.

I wouldn't worry about connections at the dash at all. Many/most of these wiring corrections should be made at the C100 conector. That's were most of the wiring would be miss-matched.

Wouldn't worry much about heat and the cluster.... not a common cause for failure. I find circuits that are actually BURNT inside the clusters. Not due to overall heat - but to a individual circuit burning up.

Heck,...... Install the Berlinetta interior into the RS, use the original Berlinetta engine bay / Headlight harnesses, buy a vortec/carb intake, and use that motor. That keep all your wiring to a minimum and you'd have a much stronger driveline than any other available option currently available to you.

( Good for topic for research on the engine swap boards ! )


Your early in the projects decision making process so you'll have a lot of changes in direction as you learn more the options you've got with the parts on hand. It's pretty normal to be 'up in the air' about many things till you come to a firm decision as to how you intend to proceed. The basic premise at this point is that you want the Berlinetta interior in your 90-92 body,... Easy enough; start by swapping EVERYTHING from the interior and in the mean-time you can figure out and decide what engine/tranny you want to use as your getting the interior swap accomplished.

P.S. Remember that your 91 RS has a fuel pump in the tank. you might need to drop the tank and remove - or change - that fuel pump. ( could probably regulate it for a carb - but you were not really thinking carb. )

P.S.S. Because your RS is a 90,...... You will be required to drill/cut the dash housing brackets in bolt/weld the dash housing mounting bracket from the Berlinetta into it. Take a quick peek at this thread to understand what I mean. ( I swapped a 90-92 dash into an 87,..... all 82-89 Camaro & Berlinetta dashes mount the same way. That changed in 90. )

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/inte...dash-into.html