I'm a poor medical student and don't have a lot of change to spend. I've been tearing thru the internet trying to find a nice engine combo. Presently have a 91 TPI 305 w/ 150K miles. This is what I have come up with (trying to stay @ $3000):

Stock 350 rebuild ($1130)
Flowtech emissions headers + y-pipe ($210)
Accel 350 injectors ($230)
Fastchip 350 chip ($160)
TPIS [airfoil, wires, AFPR] ($230)

Total: $1960 (+ misc gaskets/ fluids)


First, with this combo and my current hi-flo cat and flowmaster muffler, what would you estimate my hp to be at??

Second, if you went with this combo and you still had @ $1000 to spend, what other parts would you buy?


Edelbrock H.O. intake manifold + 52mm TB + better cam would work.

OR maybe a pair of World Product iron heads + better cam.


I know the parts may not be the best in performance, but remember that I'm on a tight budget. All replies appreciated.

Thanks

 

Or I could get the Accel superram (using stock intake manifold) and a better cam.


Ahhh....I don't know!:lala:

 

dude i hear you i am in the same psoition you are i have about 2500.00 to spend and dont know what to do i have a L98 in my gta but i want atleast 300 rear wheel horsepower their are so many ways to go i am just stupified lol i need to figure out a good combo soon.

 

I would not buy new injectors, but an adjustable fuel pressure regulator. Spend $100 more and get real headers with 1-5/8" primaries (those Flowtechs aren't a whole lot better than stock manifolds, and will certainly limit future improvements, and would make 24lb injectors unnecessary anyway).

Port the base and plenum. The 52mm TB is probably a good idea. But, cam and shorter runners will be needed to get real performance improvement.

Any particular reason you're spending money on a rebuild? If it has good compression, the money would be better spent on head improvements (porting, springs, screw-in rocker studs - or the Worlds).

 

my reason for rebuild is 115,000 miles and a noise at the lower end when under load so mine needs a rebuild but it still runs great and doesnt even smoke.

 

Check carefully for the source of the noise. You could spend a lot of money only to find that you have loose converter bolts, for instance. Or, a bad converter.

Make sure you know what's causing the noise before you start spending money.

 

well i have let alot of people listen to ity and they all think its ion the bottom end.i never did think of the converter though i allways thought maybe flywheel the other funny thing my lockup has never worked in the year i owned it.

 

You've been a great help by the way. Ummm...going for the rebuilt 350 b/c I have a 305 now with 150k miles. Thought about going with a crate 350, but seems too expensive, and all the ones I see come with Vortech heads. My thoughts were to buy an inexpensive stock rebuilt engine and then use the extra money to really put on the parts that I want (more freedom).

About the headers: I was under the impression that full length, as you put it "real", headers would not clear the stock floor pans. I'll do a search and see what others have been successful. Thats a good idea.

About the injectors: I was under the impression that it was pretty much a MUST to get the 22-24# injectors (as I only have the 19# on my 305). Would be great to save $230.

About the intake: 1) DO you think I could port the stock intake and get flow comparable to the Edelbrock H.O intake? I've been wondering this. I'd rather port the stock than spend $375 on a new intake manifold and achieve at least similar performance. And I do plan on porting the plenum and siamesing the runners.


2) What I'd rather do is get the LT1 intake (john m) but I'm still researching it. My biggest concern w/ that is the EGR valve. I doing searches here to see if anyone has been able to find a way to hook it up externally (like the LT4). No clues yet on that. I fear not passing emissions testing after spending $$$ on that intake.

About the cam: I'm still researching here on a good cam. No clues really. But I do think that it will be an absolute that I will get one. I just don't know which would be the best for me.

ANy suggestions with all that in mind?

 

I didn't realize you were going from 305 to 350, since you said "stock 350". So, that makes a little difference in what I said. And, that's the right route (although a "305 on steriods" would be a decent budget build, as long as you don't have to touch the bottom end).

22lb is probably better than 24lb. You'll run the pressure slightly higher, which produces a finer spray (mixes with the air more easily), and you shouldn't need 24lb with this buildup.

Same for the base. With a hairier build, the better base would be indicated. Ported stock should be adequate and save valuable funds for more important things.

For headers, I'm thinking Hooker 2055's (Super Comp shorties), TES, or Hedman. Really want to go wild there? Go with SLP. The Flowtechs are 1-1/2" primaries, which is why I would call them "pretend" headers. I wasn't thinking full length (haven't seen emissions-legal versions of long tubes, although I suppose you could do it if you really tried).

 

Cool...now with that settled, I have been pulling my hair out trying to figure out cam info. What I really want is a strong cam to go with a pair of World Product S/R Torquer heads (@$780 per pair) and stay emissions legal. As far as what lift and duration would give me optimal performance, I have not done enough research evidently.

Now....to sum it all up, if I go with this combo (i.e. the rebuilt 350, those heads, a good cam, headers, fastchip, and ported intake) what would be your best hp guesstimate?

 

Well...I've given this all alot of thought. Some things I did not like about the rebuilt 350 was that all the internal parts were stock. But it was cheap. All the crate engines I've looked at have Vortech heads (which severly limit any future induction plans I have). The crates w/o vortech heads (rated at 300 hp) actually crank out around 250 hp with the stock TPI as the tech dept told me. I could start with a short block and do all the work myself to build it up, but I am in medical school and only have about 10 days to complete the work before I start my 3rd year rotation schedule.

So...with all that said, I think I have found exactly something perfect for my needs and desires with all the constraints I have right now. It seems to be the easiest , quickest way. It won't be the best....but it will be the best option for this situation:

"315HP / 350 ci. TPI High Performance Long Block

Even More Performance for your Late Model Camaro & Firebird.
Ported, TPI Cast Iron Heads, For Fuel Injection, Balanced & Blueprinted Assembly
Long Block: $ 2,699.00"

Found this at :http://www.cdpautomachine.com/ecatal...vyengines.html

Check out the parts they rebuild with.

I estimate another $800 for headers, chip, etc. Which is mildly outside my budget but I think I can live with it.

Thanks for all your help guys (esp five7)

 

I don't think you should waste your money on a new throttle body. The stock one will be fine. Just go with a bigger cam, or maybe 1.6 rockers, good set of headers/y pipe. Do a littler K&N anction, air foil, ignition upgrades. If you got some extra $, you might be able to do a litte head work. -89IRO:lala:

 

Sorry, don't listen to what I said. I should have read what everyone had to say first. -89IRO

 

ok I'm not listening.

Just kidding.

This engine buildup is turning into way more of a PITA than I had originally thought. I have been doing alot of reading at the bookstore lately on heads/cam/intake and poured alot of thought into it. Still working on it. Thanks for your reply though.

 

I feel your pain man, this has been frustrating the heck out of me too. I look at this site all day long looking for anwsers. When I feel like I've got something... then I get frustrated... I dont seem to be able to talk to any mechanics around where I live that seem to understand much about my car...

hehe they all say, "yeah I can build you 400hp for 2500"

What about TPI i say? "heck yeah that'll give it even more power"

Lies LIES!! ALL OF IT!!! DAMN YOU TPI!!!

ok anyway, I looked at a stroker... some people like that idea... others are soooo against it...

I think I am going with a rebuild of my L98 and see what comes of it... take it as it goes?

My goal is to break into the 7s like... 7.99 on the 1/8th mile.
BUT stay around the budget of 3k... if thats impossible and impractical (I seem to get 2 sides everywhere I go) then... then.... I WILL NEVER BE HAPPY IN LIFE BECAUSE IT CAN BE DONE~!!!!!!

 

Ancel- if you already got the L98, then definately build up on that. I would think that would be the wise thing to do if especially if you're on a budget. Dude, really though, I think you should just use what you've got. I mean you could probably spend easily $3,000 on a new engine and get maybe 35-50 more HP out of it, but if you got the engine then stuff nice forged pistons/rods in it, a fat cam, and work the heads. Decide for yourself, that's just me.

 

You wanna run 7's? Dude, I don't think so.

 

I'm not seeing where that is going to all that great. Ported stock heads (still probably flow the same or more than likely less than stock Vortec heads, depends on how heavily ported they are) and an unspecified cam.

That longblock for $2700 is that a particularly good deal IMO.

You could get the "Base" Vortec crate motor from Scoggin Dickey for $2222 and get all new stuff, with the Vortec heads, and then add on the $400 Scoggin Dickey Vortec baseplate and be looking at virtually the same price as the engine you listed, while upgrading to a better flowing aftermarket TPI baseplate in the process. The Vortec motor would outperfrom that other one IMO. Little extra cash/trouble for the external EGR setup, the injectors/programming you'd need with whatever motor, and you're good to go. Would also need a different flexplate (may need one for the other engine too) unless I'm mistaken but that is cheap ($50ish).

I saw your other post about the 330hp Vortec motor, and the responses. five7kid did a good job turning you off to the Vortec heads, but I didn't see anything better recommended for the money, other than possibly getting something rebuilt locally/doing alot of stuff yourself. You seem determined to order a complete longblock from somwhere, and in that case I don't see any cheaper or better options than the base 330hp Vortec crate engine along with the SDPC Vortec TPI baseplate, and the external EGR setup ($60 and the time/trouble to rig it up).

Frankly I'm of the opinion that no matter what setup you go with, to reach your HP goals you will need an aftermarket TPI baseplate. I don't think a ported stocker will cut IMO. (I believe it was you that wanted a 350ish HP LS1-level performer, may have mixed you up with someone else) So since you need to get one anyway, it's not a big deal to go the Vortec route and the intake to go along with it. You mention limiting your intake options, but what else are you going to do in the future? You want to stick to emissions legal, then you're stuck with something that takes a regular stype TPI base no matter what currently. You can still throw the SuperRam runners and plenum on this Vortec TPI baseplate at some point if you get the bug to do so if I'm not mistaken. (might want to double check that...)

Anyway, check this link for the Vortec TPI baseplate and EGR stuff: http://www.sdpc2000.com/cart.asp?act...1460&pid=13740
and this one for the engine: http://www.sdpc2000.com/cart.asp?act...id=120&pid=115

If the Vortec heads and the Vortec TPI base make the 300hp mark they claim on the stock L98 engine, then you add in the hotter cam the 330hp HO engine has, the exhaust upgrades you'll be doing and such (probably want to add aftermarket TPI runners at some point), and you should nail your HP goal within or close to what it looks like your budget is. I don't see any better options posted...

Just my 2 cents...

 

i have to say this is crazy sometimes people say all different things about everything but im going with my own plan which is to rebuild the bottom end with a 10:4:1-10:8:1 compression a,d edlebrock aluminum heads,LT4 hot cam or atleast something close to that,1 5/8" headers,full 3" exhaust and ported stock intake base,runners and pelunum, i think this is a good set up for now later i will ad a chip and different intake.i hope with this set up i can dust all those stangs and ricers.

 

hahaha whooo hooo, yeah that was a misstype, my mistake.
I typed 7s on the 1/4 mile.... hehehe... that's insane..
I meant... to hit the 7s on our little 1/8th mile strip out here.

sorry about that, I feel stupid.

 

Ray, you rule. You have just clarified alot for me. You are pretty much right on the money on my thoughts and engine wants. Thank you very much. Only thing that worries me is the line at the end of that 350 HO description where it says not intended for use in fuel injection vehicles. I mean, what diff does it make as long as I put the TPI manifold on along with all the other EFI stuff I currently have?

Ancel: Keep plugging brother. It it werent for the knowledgable people and good opinions here, I'd be screwed. Just takes alot of time to sift through it all. I'm with ya!

 

Ancel- no problem, I've typed a lot of stupid stuff that I didn't mean..:lala:

 

What would an adjustable fuel pressure regulator do for me? ('89 TPI camaro). I noticed some of the kits come with gaskets. What are these gaskets for? Where does the regulator get mounted? Significant HP increase? -89IRO

 

Yeah I've noticed that before and about all I can think of for that warning is the 2 piece rear main seal block that requires you to buy a different flexplate if you originally had a 1 piece rear main block/flexplate that most fuel injection engines had. Could also be the camshaft might be a bit much for stock computer programming. As long as you run the right intake and the right flexplate, I can't see any reason why it wouldn't work with TPI on top of it... Should have provisions for all the sensors in the heads and block, so I can't think of any physical reason it wouldn't work. Try giving them a call, could be something I'm overlooking... (hopefully they'll tell you honestly and not just automatically steer you toward the more $$$ engine).



Now, to cloud the picture back up again, if you look in their custom engine section they do have a Vortec TPI engine they are trying to sell that looks pretty inviting but is a decent bit more money than the HO with the Vortec base added ($2600ish vs $3400 for this Vortec TPI motor {comes with the base}). Looks like it has modified Vortecs for a higher lift cam since they are running .525 lift on it and it's a roller cam instead of the flat tappet (that would be nice, specs look like the cam is the LT4 HOT cam...). Only downside is the 2 bolt block instead of the regular HO's 4 bolt and it costs like $800 more... Those are some nice features and it would definitely make more power than the standard HO engine, so it may be worth it to ya if you can fit in your budget. Note that they are rating that 360hp motor with aftermarket runners, bigger throttle body, and big headers though...

http://www.sdpc2000.com/cart.asp?act...=1577&pid=9009

I would be quite interested to see the power difference between the two engines with the same TPI/exhaust setup, see if it's really worth the $$$... I can't help but wonder if with typical size headers, stock runners/TB etc if the hotter engine wouldn't be restircted to power levels very simlar to the HO engine with the same stuff...

Also not sure what kind of warranty the other engine has either. You best bet is to call up Scoggin Dickey and see what they say about it all...

Good luck.

 

i have been debating what to do also about my new engine but it just seem to make sense to nuy one of these engines if you allready have a L98 i am syre they are good engines but im gonna have my redone with aluminum heads and Lt4 hot cam and many other parts that are better than what they offer for alot less i say i will probably spend 2100.00 and my engine should kick anyone of those aftermarket engines asses for alot less. i could understand if you are going from a 305 to 350 and need a new engine other than that i think you need to have the engine rebuilt.

 

Yes, there are a few questions I need to nail down:

1) The stock L98 had a compression ratio of 9.3:1. The 350HO shows 9.1:1. And the TPI version has 9.6:1. Different pistons?

2) They should both have a 1 piece rear main seal, although the 350HO does not show it.

3) About the cam: the 350HO has a hydraulic cam (212/222) vs the TPI (218/228). I'm sure PROM tuning is needed for both.

I have talked to a couple people here who are running the HO w/ TPI and say they have no probs. So I guess it does work. I'll find out more details.

Also, I found a place called goautocenter.com who has the same HO engine for about $115 less and will customize the engine to your desires. I could have them install a HOT cam kit for me....

What is the significance of those compression number differences?


-Matt

 

Anybody?

 

You're right, I did some digging and it is a one piece seal on the HO (paceparts.com gives you part numbers for the required flexplate, numbers coorespond to 1 piece rear seal flexplates). I'm not sure where I got that it had a 2 piece from, oh well... One less thing to worry about...

Compression ratio is close enough to stock either way I don't think it would be a big concern, the 9.6:1 would be better for performance... (I'm running somewhere around 9.6-9.8:1 if my calculations are anywhere near correct.)

I actually got my crate motor from Autocenter, but I'm not sure their page is updated price wise. That is the old price for that engine I think... Can't hurt to call though. They weren't all that helpful when I was dealing with them, I got my Vortec heads, rockers and such from Scoggin after that... Both Scoggin and Pace have the HO at $2220ish but if Autocenter's price is right that's worth going with them...

To run the hot cam they would have to do some head mods for clearance between the spring retainers and the valve guide bosses along with better springs, don't know if they offer that but it's certainly something to check on. Scoggin was selling the pre-modded Vortecs for an extra $200 or so over the regular Vortecs, I assume that is what they are running on that Vortec TPI crate motor...

About the cam, you would definitely want the programming either way, but the one in the HO is almost mild enough I'd be curious to see how it runs without the programming. Haven't heard if anyone has tried.

About my crate engine, I did all this before they offered the Vortec crate motors, and I changed my mind about what I was doing after I had already purchased the engine... I started out with that 265hp crate 350 from Autocenter (71-75 350s, was $200 cheaper back then...), pulled the cam and used it in my 86's 305, and sold the heads off the crate motor for a couple hundred, and threw on the Vortec and the Compcams XE262 cam. So all in all I came out without a whole lot of money invested and something that should be pretty similar to the HO is now. Seems to work well for me but I'm not running the TPI on the car anwymore... I figure with the 8.5:1 compression it was rated at with the 76cc heads, that 64cc heads should raise it up to between 9.6:1-10:1 depending on which calculator programs I use, somewhere around there anyway...

 

Cool. I just emailed a member here (1fastformula) who is running the exact same set-up I am looking at. I asked him if there were any probs with installation or driveability. When I here from him, I'll let you know. I think it should work just fine.

Also, Jegs claims an increase in 15hp with installation of there alum roller rockers. I was considering putting these on the vortec heads. Think it'd be worth it?

I think I'll prob stick with the cam that comes with the crate motor. Seems easiest way to go.

How do you like your compcam Xe262?

What is the intake/exhaust duration?

 

Yeah, I like the XE262 just fine. Idles well but sounds mean to me. Pulls hard pretty much everywhere in the RPM range. It's 218/224 @.050, lift of .462/.469

1.6 rockers are a good mod, several different Vortec buildup mag tests and such have shown 15ish hp on top of the XE268. However, if you use them you will then run into the same problem you would have with the HOTcam, you need to mod the heads to handle the lift. Absolute highest lift you would want to run is .480 on the stock heads, and if you were runninn that you would want to check the retainer/valve guide clearance to be sure. Running the 1.6s on the stock HO cam would put you up around .465 on the intake which is fine, but the exhaust would be up around .490ish, a little too high without clearancing... Now I think there are some special retainer/spring/locks combos you can run I think that would avoid physical clearancing, but you'd have to check with some cam companies on that.... I think Crane has something in that department. I'm going to start looking into that more shortly, I'm thinking I may try to swap on better springs and 1.6s on mine actually. If you happen to contact Crane or Comp let me know what they tell you on that end...

 

OK; I'm using this equation:

lobe lift x rocker ratio = max valve lift.

350HO cam lobe lift = .435"/.460"
Rocker ratio =1.5:1
Max lift = .6525 / .6900


The valve lift on the vortec (stock) is .450.

I don't think my equation is right. The numbers I'm calculating seem to be too high.

I'll look into the Crane for the clearance friendly parts.

 

"The swap in was great!!!! The only thing you will need (I got it anyways) is the EGR re-router kit. The Vortec manifold design will not allow the stock routing of EGR....If you do not want it, talk to FASTCHIPS and see if they can burn you a chip not to give a CES light for not having EGR hooked up. Other than that....you listed just about everything you will need.

Now on to the good stuff. The engine is a BEAST!!!! I had the L98 and compared to top end grunt (thats right TPI TOP END GRUNT), L98 cannot compare. Just this morning a bud of mine in a 98 LS1 (whisper lid and cutout) was about 1 1/2 cars ahead of me.....We were both pacing at about 60MPH and he STOMPS IT!!! I too get on it and low and behold....he pulls me VERY slowly. Now taking into fact that TPI's suck on top end and we were already at 60MPH, He should hav e slaughtered me....If I had the L98 ....... Get the Crate and enjoy it!!"


That just about sells me on it. [sigh of relief]

Good stuff. OK. Now..I emailed goautocenter and asked if they could install some better roller rocker arms and if so, for how much. I'll let you know.

 

I'm not sure what you're looking for here? The .435/.460 is the cams lift with the 1.5 rockers as I understand it, that's not the base lobe lift so it's throwing your numbers off. With 1.6s you can estimate for just a general rule about a .030 increase vs 1.5 numbers for both intake/exhaust numbers above, putting you over what you would safely want to run without some clearancing work on the exhaust side.

Everything will be fine as it comes outta the crate, but if you want to step up the cam or run 1.6 rockers you'll need either the clearancing or possibly some special retainers/springs/offset locks to add some extra clearance...

Doing a quick search on 1fastformula it looks like he's running the stock TPI stuff other than the base. So there is room for improvement with some aftermarket runners and some plenum porting if you're looking for a little more than he's got. But you know you can get by with the stock stuff, so you can upgrade later as your budget situation allows. That would help up top especially...