I was planning on buying the Vortec 350 HO threw GM. I have a choice of keeping my stock fuel setup and buying a new manifold that will work with the vortec heads or going to a TPI setup and buying an aftermarket manifold. I needed some help in all areas on what is involved in this project. Is it worth the while? I have had some help and have a basic idea but I wanted to get as many inputs as possible. Will I notice a significant power gain converting to TPI? I was planning on piecing the TPI parts together before I buy a engine since you can get the stuff for pretty cheap on Ebay! If I plan to buy aftermarket runners, either Edelbrock or SLP does it make a difference on what Plenemun I buy? Or do I need to buy one of a 91 or 92 Z28. What is the hardest thing when converting a TBI to TPI? My car is a 92 RS if that makes any difference? Another thing I have heard was that if I put a 350 HO performance crate engine threw GM it would not pass smog on my car, at least this is what the part guy said at my dads work. My dad is a mechanic but he is not to sure on what the legalities are when it comes smog and what is and isnt legal!

 

Yes, it is worth the while to convert to what you want to do. If you piece together a TPI setup, it's going to cost you $$$$$. For a TPI setup, find a donor car and steal the stuff off of it, you will save a TON of headaches. You'll need a TPI fuel pump, and since you sound like you want to build power, get the walbro pump. Find a Speed Density TPI setup too, they were used on '90-92 model years. As far as aftermarked plenum, runners, etc., I would suggest running a search on those since they are discussed quite frequently. As for smog laws, keep all your emissions controls from your old engine installed and functional, and you shouldn't have too much of a problem with it. If you are going to use TPI, the computer, and check engine light, sensors, all that stuff MUST work. Hope that gives you some insight.

 

So putting a 350 HO would not make it illegal when getting it smoged?

Is their anyone out their who have done this or know of any good setups that were used. I have a basic idea of what I want to do but I like to know what others have done!

 

Technically, yes it would make it illegal, because nobody has "certified" the combination with the CARB.

In a practical sense, you may be able to sneak it by the inspector and pass the sniffer. Do they still hook up a vacuum pump to the EGR and see if the engine misses/dies (verifying the operation of the EGR)? If so, that may be a problem, because Vortec heads don't have the exhaust cross-over passages. Vettes use an external exhaust plumbing arrangement, though, so you might be able to get it to work that way.

I'm still waiting to hear of anyone who's gotten a 350 HO through a "real" CA smog inspection/test (somebody said they got a "pass", but it was an under-the-table thing).

 

What do you mean about the exhaust cross over? You had mentioned that it was not certified with a CARB? I plan on putting the TPI setup of a 90-92 Z28. I dont know if that makes a difference or not? What exactly does the EGR do?

 

CARB = California Air Resources Board

What he meant was that CARB has not certified that combination as an acceptable replacement, so technically, it does not pass.

From when I lived in So Cal, I can tell you that if they spot anything about the car that has been changed, they will look for the CARB EO number (Executive Order) that specifically allows that part to be used in that specific application. If they don't notice it, it might slip through; but that doesn't mean it's "legal", only that it didn't get caught. They have a book that shows where every device - every sensor, every valve, every wire, every hose - is supposed to be on your car, by its VIN; they will fail it for "tampering" if any piece is missing or disconnected.

Some of the TPI ECMs (the later ones, which are the only ones of interest to you, since you will have to swap in a 92 style one, since you can't put an older engine or control system in your car than the one it comes with) will check for proper operation of the EGR valve at startup; if it doesn't find that it works (has the intended effect on the engine's operation) it will set a code. The car will not pass if the Check Engine light comes on during the test, or if it fails to act normally during startup. I don't know to what level of detail they scrutinize the computer, by scanning it; they very well may have a list of the checksum value for the PROM in each model of car by VIN to go along with their diagram of "devices", in which case it will fail if anything in the PROM has been changed. So you can't fake them by programming it out.

So, the long and short of it is, no, the car will not pass with that engine in it, unless you install the Vette base and the external EGR plumbing. I would look for some other upgrade path if I was you.

 

Do you mean if the computer is reprogramed it will not pass? Basically you are saying that I cannot use that engine! If that is the case what would I have to do in order to get vortec engine with a tpi setup to be smog legal in my car? What I dont understand is, GM used that engine for camaros up to 87 with some kit on it to be smog legal. Why would putting a TPI on it make it illegal? Putting a TPI in my car does not make it illegal does it?

 

Yes that's what I mean. OBD3 cars I know they actually hook up to the diagnostic port and read the stored codes; in fact, they'll do that, in lieu of running it on the dyno, because that system will confess whatever emissions sins it has been committing. If the system says it's been clean, then it will pass. Cars such as computer Q-Jet carbs, and TBI and TPI, aren't quite as sophisticated as that; but it's still possible in the TPI (and TBI too) ECMs to read the checksum from the diagnostic port, which will tell if the computer has been re-programmed ("tampered" in emissions inspector language). I just don't know for sure whether they actually do that or not.

That engine is legal as a replacement for cars up to a certain year, and trucks up to some other certain year, and in years after that, some other cars and trucks if the retrofit EGR kit is installed.

Read the part about the EGR. That's why it isn't legal in one of these cars. It doesn't have provisions for it, and these cars came with it, and that means that any motor you put in them, has to have it. Real simple, cut and dried.

Putting TPI in your car does not make it illegal. Rather, TPI for one of these cars does not contain the provision for the EGR retrofit kit (since it always came with heads that supported it the normal way).Only the version of TPI in Vettes has it that way. So if you get a Vette TPI intake, and the EGR kit, then you can make a legal install. However, the only TPI intake whose ports line up with the intake ports in the heads, is the Scoggin-Dickey one; and I have no clue whether it has the EGR provision or not. With a normal stock Vette intake the ports are so far mismatched that even if they actually seal, any flow benefits that the Vortec heads offer will be voided.

 

I think I am following you? I was planning to by the Scog.... intake. So if I am following you right, if that intake has the EGR setup I can use the 350 HO or am I way off!

 

That would be correct.

 

So basically you are not sure if that intake has the setup.

 

Correct. I do not have one to look at.

 

Do you or anyone out their recommened or think a certain setup is good. When I say that I mean everything under the hood. What do you see most guys doing when making a engine swap on these cars.

 

After reading all this, I recommend moving to another state...

 

As a sidenote that was actually the ZZ4 engine, but it didn't use EGR either.

 

I'd put it a different way: Where do most guys live who do these engine swaps on these cars?

The answer is, "Not California."

The GM 350 kit (although they called it "HO 350") did not use the 350 HO engine with Vortec heads. As flyway190 stated, it used the ZZ4 engine. The kit could only be used in '82-'87 cars originally equiped with a carb'd engine and automatic transmission. The entire kit had to be installed per the instructions in order to be legal, and since they've discontinued the kit, you can't just put a ZZ4 in and expect it to be legal. (When the kit first came out, they had an external EGR tube going from exhaust manifold to intake manifold. They apparently eliminated that in the later kits.)

Chevy High Performance magazine has had a series going on for over a year called "My Generation Camaro", where they took a stock '87 LG4 Camaro and made various changes in an attempt to improve performance and remain California emissions-legal. They did a lot of things that would not be recommended on this board, and didn't do a lot of things that would be. Their overall results were towards improvement, but disappointing.

They have now built up a 350 using a lot of the bolt-ons they used for the 305. They are calling it "smog-legal", but technically it isn't because GM never offered/certified a 350 with a carb in 3rd gens. But, although they didn't say it directly, I'm sure they're relying on the visual similarity between the 305 and 350 to get it by. Oh, initial runs in the car have been disappointing as well.

They aren't using the 350 HO engine as their base, so it doesn't directly answer your question. You never have said what vehicle/engine/transmission you've got now, but, the best route for you to pursue would probably be a L98 setup, with emissions-legal replacement parts. You'll have to have a referee look it over, but as long as the engine/smog equipment you choose is from the same year or newer than your chassis, was installed by the factory in a passenger car subject to the same emissions requirements as your car type, and you have all of the equipment required for that engine combo, you can get it through the required inspections/testing.

There, now you know everything you need to know. It's quite simple, isn't it?

 

As in Vortec TPI EGR.

It's all documented here http://www.sdpc2000.com/htm/vortec_tpi.html

This link is embedded http://www.sdpc2000.com/htm/TPI_instruc.pdf . Note this sentence: "This intake is NOT legal in California on any pollution-controlled motor vehicles, nor has it been approved for any pollution-controlled applications in any state in the USA."

 

If that intake is not legal in California then there is no way I can use the 350 HO in my car then. This is starting to get really annoying!

 

I read the link! The intake has the EGR setup so shouldnt it technically be legal! If I were to use the engine setup that I want could it pass smog. From what I understand it will pass smog and not pass visual. Am I right or wrong? Worst comes to worst I could pay some guy off

 

ok, my 92 rs 305 tbi, will be recieving the 91 tpi unit from my z28 that i am parting out. how much of the wiring do i need, and please be specific, as i am not a wiring harness guru...yet
from dismantling my dash, what i have found is...the ecm and another metal box that i do not know what it is.
all of the wiring under the hood...what's the best way to make it simple, (what do i need, like inj. wiring, etc, and what don't i need and what is the best way to hook it all up)
if this isn't that difficult, i may attempt it myself, but like i said, i don't like wiring
the inside wiring, like the gauge cluster, etc. i am selling the dash, and i need to know what i have to keep, so i don't give the buyer things i would have to hunt down later.
i don't think that i forgot anything
thanks for any help, sorry this is kind of long-winded

 

Just be happy you have the stuff! I am trying to find everything on Ebay which isnt that bad. I already found a 92 Z28 plenum and ECM. But I am in the same boat you are in so I will probably keep in touch with you and put you on my buddy list. I will learn from the mistakes you make

 

unfortunately for you, since your car is a 92 and you live in cali, you have to get stuff from a 92 z or firebird/ta that has tpi. at least this is what i assume.
i don't have e-check or have to get annual inspections. (one of the very few benefits of living in columbus, oh.

my recommendation would be to buy a complete engine from a junker. eithe 305 LB9 or 350 L98. look at http://www.car-part.com
they have a lot of stuff.
if you go this route, you can get the whole thing and drop it in. and if it is the same year most of it should be plug and play from what i understand,
plus by doing this you don't have to worry about having a tpi unit on an LO3 longblock. from what i was told, it is approx 17hp and 70 tq to the rear wheels. but i won't know until i attempt it and dyno it.

 

No, it technically is not legal because it hasn't been "approved" (read: expensive certification). You may be able to pass sniffer, but visual is the issue.

The potential jail term would probably deter the smog inspector more than the money you could offer would entice.

Why are you so hard over about using this engine? You can easily get an L98 make the kind of ponies the HO does, especially with TPI, for less money. No smog legality issues.

You still haven't said what engine you have now, either.

costill91Z, take the harness complete from the engine bay to the kick panel pass-through. You may have to use the kick panel to ECM harness as well (not completely sure about that), but it all can be removed as complete pieces - you don't have to take any wires out of the harnesses themselves.

 

sounds like to much work to live in california
move to another state
........hope they never bring the sniffer in in australia (not that my 350 tpi RS wouldnt pass sniffer BUT would fail a visual inspection
if the dot knew what the car was supposed to have
btw since the 3rd gen came out cats have become more efficient negating the orig benefits of the air pump anyway

 

The engine in my car is a stock 305 TPI for whoever asked! I want the 305 HO because I wanted to use the vortec head and I can get the engine for under $2000! If I have to I could by the Stock L98. I dont know but do any of you guys know if GM still makes that engine?

 

No, but there's this:

http://www.sdpc2000.com/cart.asp?act...id=128&pid=105

 

Can you buy just the block on thoose? Reason I ask is because I would want to put better heads on them. When I drop another engine in my car I want at least 350 hp out of it! It should not be hard to do but I want this project to be worth while. Is that the same engine that was used in the 92 Z28? How many horses does it put out? That engine would be smog legal? What marking on the engine do the smog places look for to no it is legal? Sorry for all the question, I am trying to learn all I can so I dont make a stupid mistake!

 

do you already have the tpi setup? if so, then you can use a 92 style (gen 1 block) with vortec heads, you just need the scroggin-dickey intake for tpi (i think that's where you were heading) it allows you to bolt up any gen II style heads with its tpi base.

if you don't have a tpi setup yet, get a 92 L98 out a junkyard and then get your heads and intake manifold for it. i found one a couple of months ago for $1100 shipped. it had 73k and all of the harnesses...I should have bought it

 

I am pieceing a TPI Setup threw Ebay! I have a ported 92 Z28 Plenum and the ECM. I plan to buy SLP runners and a Edelbrock Throttle body. I will buy all the other necessary parts threw my dads work because I can get it at cost or Ebay. It just depends what I find. I am just trying to figure out what I can do engine wise that will still be smog legal. What do you mean about Gen I and II? You mentioned that you were parting out your Z28!!! IF so I definitley need to contact you.

 

http://www.sdpc2000.com/cart.asp?act...tart&catid=514

 

Gen I is our engines, and Gen II has the reverse flow coolant design for the heads and uses a different head to intake bolt patter and i think changed from the center bolt valve cover design.
and gen III is of course the ls1 engine and its cousins (4.8, 5.3, 6.0)

since i don't have the same emissions requirements that you do, i am side-stepping some obstacles. (like putting a 91 tpi unit on a 92 car) but since you have the ecm from a 92, the primary thing now would be to make sure that every part you get has an e.o. and a carb exemption for it, otherwise you might as well move out of state
find a used block and have it rebuilt, that ;might actually be cheaper. you could find a vortec truck block from a 99 and older p/u, and mod from there, and the only thing that you should need is the scroggin-dickey tpi/vortec manifold
hope this helps.

mike

 

I think I have a much better idea of what I need to do! If you guy have any suggestions on the engine mods and what stuff you think I should use just let me know. Alot of guy were telling me you could build a engine with a ton of power and be able to get good gas mileage. When I say that I am thinking 14-16 city and 20-26 highway. What set of heads would you guys recommened. Should I stick with GM Stuff or is it a matter of preference?

 

Airflow Research has L98 replacement heads that have the CARB exemptions and are 50 state legal. They come in 180cc, 190cc and 195cc intake volumes and 64cc and 78cc chamber sizes. I love the Vortecs but would drop them in a minute for a set of these. They are pricey though.....$1200. Maybe a set on a healthy L98 would be your ticket out of Smog Hell , I would think. I am not entirely familiar with California Smog Laws.

 

Cool, I will definitly look in to it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

i paid 100$ to my inspector.... cause thats what he asked for inorder for me to pass.... now i have a lil sticker and a cert for my troubles...>=)



my advice... find a shop that hates CA laws as much as the rest of us... trust me.. they are out there.

 

So the guy passed it for inspection? Do you have to pay him that much every time you want your car to pass? For 100 it would definitly be worth it!

 

Hey whats up guys I live in MI just outside detroit Moter capital of the world baby! No sissy emmisions crap for me . Anyway I have a 92 bird with the stock 305 TBI and and automatic I was thinking of doing a conversion to TPI then later to 350, I know the esiest way for power is a carb but frankly with MI winters and weather I want the dependability of a FI so no carbs, So heres my question for you all. What would it take me to convert to TPI? Can I use my stock wiring harness and just chop some of it and switch ECM's? O would I have to practically gut the car pull the dash out and the whole shot and put one from a TPI car in? I wan this thing to look stock I'm going for a sleeper look. I want my V.A.T.S. to work and everything look stock. My performance upgrades are going to be a set of headers (non-A.I.R.) removal of the smog pump and mild head & intake porting, edelbrock perfomer cam, and a K&N intake setup. The TPI unit itsself, ECM, duct work, and harness aren't to big of a problem to get. But my money is tight so I can't just go out and get a painless wiring kit or anything like that. I am also very good with wiring so if someone could explain to me what I'd have to do to adapt my TBI over it wouldn't be a problem.... Any help is appreciated.
~Aaron
P.S. this is my daily driver, my hot rod is a 79 T-top formula with a 1970 Ram Air III 400.

 

yeah the 100$ was on top of the 49$ for the test and 8$ for the cert.. just find the most whole in the wall, crappy place, guys named Zed or Billy Bob, place and just talk to them a little.. i'd say you have a 50-50 chance of hooking it up. you would be surprised on how many people do this... i mean look at all the ricers in this state... there is no friggin way their cars are legal with all the extra crap they have in their engine

 

Very True!, What I will do is get it as close to smog as possible and hope it passes if not I will bust out a hundred and hope the pass it. I know a ton of guys that did that. I should just ask around!

 

It would be great if you could link up with someone who knows an inspector. These guys are subject to HUGE fines if they pass a car illegally. The way most states check is to send agents out with cars that won't pass to see if they can get them to (ie. bribes,etc.) I would think that the risk wouldn't be worth the inspectors trouble unless there was guarantees you weren't a plant. I have heard fines are in the $10,000 range for some states!

 

I will hopefully be able to get it passed!!! I dont think it will be to hard but if push comes to shove..............