As my car sits now its pretty much like all third gens out there and not much competition for cars these days that can go from 84 hp to something running low 13s. i want to change that. what i want to do is build a 350 that will run mid 12s. most likely tpi maybe carb if its worth the trouble. i will be investing a lot of time and money in this project so i want to make it worth the effort.

so what is going to be needed suspension, rear end, and transmission wise to withstand 12 second runs?

this is going to be street engine that needs to pass emissions. this will be one of those builds where parts are acumulated and once all the parts are together i will get it all put together or do it slowly one part at a time.

so help me start to plan this and get the train moving

 

I would make sure to get SFC's and a STB for suspension as basics...

A nice gear 3.23 and above with a posi rear

As for transmission, I would just get a T56 with a nice clutch

As far as the engine, good luck with the whole emissions thing......There are several write-ups on the board that explain what you need to get to the 12's, but i'm not sure if they are smog friendly...

[/Ducks behind a rock for cover]
If your already throwing lots of money at it, might as welll throw in an LS1, it's a 350....

 

a rock can't protect you that much

and don't start with the whole LS1 thing.

kevs, i thought ohio didn't have emissions requirements. If they do, you need to find out the extent of the testing that is done. Some tets just require an idle test, some states require a visual inspection and a dyno test. and california, i won't even get into.

If your car orignically had fuel injection, and your state requires a visual inspection, a carburetor won't fly. But in all other circumstances, i would vote carb.

 

i cant drive a stick so the t56 is out.

i cant save money so the ls1 is out.

dyno test only at emissions.

my car is running the 700r4 (stock i suppose), 2.73 10 bolt drum posi, tpi, lb9. the valve seals are bad and its pushing 190k on the engine from the odo plus a 100k (guessing its over 100k). so im looking into getting this thing started going.

i was thinking a aftermarket converter, vortec heads, sd tpi base, 52 mm tb, slp headers, a nice mild cam (need help), probuilt 700r4, and 9 inch rear with 3.42 disc. is that going to get me anywhere near mid or high 12s? oh and im going to get a 350 bare block and need help on choosing good quality parts.

 

SFC= SubFrameConnectors
But whats a STB?

 

everyone knows what sfc are and im surpriesed you dont know that stb means strut tower brace. anyway someone reply please thanks.

 

Well, I have heard that before now that I was reminded of it. But being foreign I don't always dechiffer abbreviations as easily.

 

that explains it. my bad.

 

about the emission thing in chicago a engine with

215/220 with 190cc heads "AFR etc" and 10:1 compression 383/400 FUEL INEJECTED should pass the sniffer just make sure you pass the first time so they dont pop the hood

and if you're going to go fuel injected do your self a favor and not use TPI.. i'd use a miniram or superram

the whole thing about emissions are you want to avoid high duration cams at all costs..

 

definatly ditch the TPI setup, go with something more along the lines of a stealth ram if you want to run fuel injection, a good rule of thumb, is keep the cam duration below 220* for emissions, But that is figured with a tighter LSA than a fuel injection cam profile. I see people here in phoenix pass the dyno test with a LT4 hot cam in their LT1's.

If it were me, I would find myself a cheap 350 short block, preferably a roller block. (i.e. L98, 90's trucks, whatever) that is still in good shape, get a set of resonably priced aftermarket cylinder heads, a cam around the lines of the LT4 hot cam, possibly a little milder if you are worried about emissions, factory hydralic roller setup. a set of roller rockers, a stealth ram feeding the beast, burn your own proms.

get your 700r4 built to take the power, or if you don't mind the lack of overdrive run a something like a TH400.

and your rear end will hold as long as you run street radials. Once you put a stickier tire out back, it's only a matter of time untill the rear end gives way. If you want a rear end that will take the power+traction, look into a 12 bolt, Ford 9", or a rare Dana 44 for the F-body.

Suspension eise, SFC's are always a good idea, stock or not, aftermarket lower control arms help with wheel hop, and unhooking your front sway bar at the track helps with weight transfer. If your springs and shocks are worn, they are worth replacing as well.

That all should put you in the 12's easily.

Running a carburetor could still get you through emissions if you are absolutly sure they do not do a visual check where you live. It would also be considerably cheaper, and easier to tune.But that all is up to you.

There is also the crate engine route, a Stealth rammed ZZ4 could get you close to the 12s, there are a couple people around this board running deep in the 12's with a cammed 350H0.

The cheapest way to the 12's is of course "on the bottle" but it isn't "always on" horsepower as some say.

It all depends on what you want to do, these are just some of your options, I'm sure there is plenty more.

Sometimes it helps to sit with a paper and pen, write down your options, and then the pros and cons of those options, figure out what is most important to you, and choose what to do based on that.

Just don't settle for less than what you want, if it takes saving up for another year to get what you want, save up for another year. it always sucks after doing a huge project, 3 months later wishing you hadn't settled for less than what you really wanted.

 

i was thinking about ditching the tpi and going with either the miniram or the stealthram. i cant remember which doesnt have egr which i need for emissions.

i was going to get the ford 9 inch to hold the power since my pinion seal is leaking anyway.

i thought i might get hotckins 1 inch lowering springs and sfc then getting the spohn stb.

right now i have a roller 350 bare block. i bought a bare block because i can't depend on other people's work and how the engine was used. i didnt want to risk 3 grand in engine parts and something in the bottom break and waste it all. would the rebuild kits summit sells be the best way to get the bottom together? or should i start asking about parts for that?

lt4 hot cam might be a little too agressive for our emissions.

would vortec heads withstand and be in the range of the power i want to produce?

i need overdrive so would buying a probuilt 700r4 be a good way to go or should i get mine rebuilt?

this is what i want out of my car:

i want a street car that wont get eaten by the r-burners and i can take it to the track and not be humiliated.

i want something running like 12.5 to 12.7 in the 1/4

preferably fuel injected no nitrous

i dont want 3 foot wide tires just to get the power down.

i need something that will handle stock or better in the corners

15 to 20 mpg mixed (city and highway) driving if possible

 

STB is a Strut Tower Brace. Its that bar that goes over your engine under the hood, from left to right.

 

im sure he knew what a strut tower brace is its the abbreviation he couldnt translate. in either case its over with stick to the topic or dont post. pm him or something.

 

How do I know if he knew that or not? He asked what "STB" meant, and I answered.

 

The only intake for our fuel injected engines that remains emission legal is the Super Ram.

That doesn't mean the other intakes couldn't pass the sniffer, but that the the SR is the only one that is certified as a emissions legal part to put on.

Mini Ram, LT1 converted intake, HSR. None of the listed are emissions legal where a visual inspection is concerned. If you don't have under hood inspections than you can probably get away with one of them.

 

Yeah, I know what a strut tower brace is, I've had it on previous cars. I was just in a wrong line of thinking, I was thinking of panhardbars, torque arms, or control arm relocation kits. Just didn't connect with the strut tower brace.

If you can live with the increased fuel consumption of a carb, that would really make the whole thing more reasonable in cost. And I belive it is somewhat easier to tune. Big throttle bodies for injection and large injectors aren't cheap, so if it isn't a must, I would ditch it.

At least you would get more bang for the buck. Some people reccomend the KYB adjustables rear shocks for tuning of the launch of the pad. They aren't that expensive either, at least compared to say koni or bilsteins.

Most drivable engine would be with a blower though. Then you don't need the largest cam you gan get to make big power, so it would be more streetable. Turbos are also gaining popularity these days. A guy on the board has made his own headers and there is a post going through the build. Worth looking up.

What you do want though, is a new converter. Converters are very underrated when it comes to what good they actually do. A 9,5inch ACT or Vigilante converter with a 2800-3000 flash stall, is what people seems to be most happy with these days. They are very drivable when normal driving, you won't know it's there until you lean on it hard.

 

So far i need a superram, stb, sfc, converter between 2800-3000 stall, a new tranny, 9 inch rear with 3.42 gears

Are vortec heads good enough and the right choice to run?

What internals should i buy for the block?

The block i have is cracked so now i am trying to find a new one. which casting and year is the best?

What as far as exhaust would be the best way to go? all i have right now is a hooker aerochamber muffler as far as aftermarket exhaust goes.

Intake side all i have done is ported plenium, k&ns, and gutted airbox.

Now we are getting somewhere this is great!!!

 

Most go with a cast steel crank and opt for one with a 3.75 throw making it a 383 since they cost about the same. Then a set of hyperautic kieth black pistons would keep the budget theme. As far as heads, that's a big topic of it's own. Rods? Big topic too. Eagle make affordable good rods for different horsepower applications. Chech summit catalogue.

But just to remind you of the basics if you don't already know them, Vortec's limit your total cam lift, and have press in studs, not reccomended for valvesprings with high pressure. Vortec's require a vortec specific intake, others won't fit if they aren't converted, and not all can be converted.

Scoggin dickey parts center sell Vortec's with screw in studs which are able to sustain higher spring pressure. They even have a tpi intake for it. But then again, it's expensive to get tpi to flow what you need to make big power, so what you gained using cheaper vortec's, would be spent twofold later. If you get good deals on used parts it's a different matter, but buying everything retail it's not saving you much, if any.

It all depends on the wanted power output, vortec's can make a plenty fast streetmachine, just not a street dominator. If you upgrade them to really make power, the savings is mostly gone compared to the cheaper aftermarket iron ones.

You need headers of course, and a 3 inch exhaust.
As far as blocks I dont know to much about different castings, but you have the choice of 68-86 dual piece seal or 87- single peace setup for a roller cam. Can't advise you on that, it depends to much of the rest of your setup.

If you want a car that's not "all race" you could always have a N2O setup delivering a little extra when needed. With hyperautic pistons you're limited to a 150 shot though, preferably a 100 to be safe.

OR you can buy a Dart block bored to 4.125, slap in a 4 inch eagle forged crank, 6 inch forged H-beam 3D rods and some forged pistons, and make a a smallblock 427 who can easily withstand 500 n/a horsepower + a 250 HP n2o shot. Or go the whole way and order a world products motown block, specify a 4.250 bore, get a 4 inch throw crank, and get yourself a 454. Everything is internally balanced.

Then all you need is BIG heads, like the AFR 227's, a suitable cam, a barry grant carb, and a edelbrock airgap, or a supervictor. 1-7/8 headers, 3,5 or 4 inch exhaust, a HEI, and all ARP hardware. Then you're set for a 550-600HP screamer. And if that's not enough for ya, you can always slap on a blower or twin turbos later, say from www.bbsdesigns.net , since this combination is known to handle 1800 to 2000 horsepower according to Dart and world product's customer service.

Or perhaps just buy a better car?

 

i am trying to stay with a 350. super ram is a good idea and what i was leaning toward if the intake needed to be changed.

i will buy a new rear, tranny, and converter when i get the engine together. for now lets focus on parts selection. first lets start with the rotating assembly.

i figured i need a forged crank just to be safe, a cast crank is a little on the risky side because they have a tendency to fail so i hear.

what rotating assembly is strong and affordable?

 

Cast steel cranks is somewhere between a cast iron and forged one. It is used with succes in engines with moderate hp ranges, say like up to 500 hp or so. THe eagle forged ones are rated to 1000 hp. It depends on what your goal is.

Summit racing sell Eagle rotating assembly's.Scat are also a good and affordable producer.if you want a big n2o shot, you need forged pistons, if not, hyper would do the job. As for the different brands, that's up to your preference.

 

my brother mentioned scat as a possiblility for parts. i want to buy strength because who knows what i might end up putting on it. i cant have everything be out in the open haha.

where do i purchase scat products?

what summit eagle brand rotating assembly would be a good choice?

 

anyone?

 

Sounds like you're going to spend 2 or 3 times what you would with an LT1 swap for the same performance, and a lot more work

 

forget it. this site is no longer a useful tool. its become a site of idiots that cant give any advice other than ls1 lt1 lt4. 4th gen induction is not the greatest thing to walk the earth so get over yourself and be more creative. im 18 and i feel like all the 'wise old men' are gone its all just scared little boys with no position on anything. "take chance,s gain experience, and give advice or just follow everyone else" and that seems like how it is here. 3 decent people and 4 million complete morons. good luck boys im about finished with this site.

 

Hang in there man. I hate to see a fellow dayton member so distrought. I didn't read the whole thread but I glanced over most of it. We only suggest LTX swaps because they are the best small blocks ever to walk the earth in stock form. 300+hp and 30 mpg is not to bad right out of the box. Plus the swap is creative and is a challange when you get to the wiring and fab work and such. However, the swap is no more complicated than switching to any indction setup whether it be carb, TBI, TPI, miniram etc etc. luckily Dayton only has the sniffer test which puts the swap gods on your team. There is some good ideas in this thread but it boils down to what you want the car to do beside run 12's. Any multi port fuel injected motor will be able to get you to your goal while passing smog with flying colors. The LT1 just happens to be the first in line when it comes to cost and performance.

 

ok granted the lt1 and ls1 both have their advantages. some people on here just have a way of saying things that can get under your skin know what i mean? like they are talking down to you or something.

anyway... what would an lt1 run me? what all would be involved in the swap?

 

They seem to range between 900 and 1500 bucks. You ussually get everything including, injectors, computer, wireing, and acessories as well. Check out the stickys at the top for swapping info. There are a few tweeks but it is a pretty straight forward swap. There are a few swappers guides out there as well that detail such a swap. Try a few searches and see what you get.

 

Like i said, do a little research before you get your panties in a wad a hole.

Who the heck would think taking care of a crappy computer and maf limitation, high flowing intake manifold, nice set of aluminum heads, along with the ability to cheaply flash reprogram at the track would be so rejected.

talk about ungrateful.

 

So your saying that the lt1 computer is easier to tune to different combinations? Because in the past, I have been advised to buy a complete tpi setup, and just swap the intake for the lt1 one and just use the rest from tpi. Perhaps they didn't mean it to be any better, only cheaper.

 

Everyones running around with this way and that way to band aid all of the problems with the maf 255g / sec limit in the 165, or playing games tuning the SD 730, with the LT1 its got a good MAF and also a backup MAP, the computer can be easily flash programmed with LT1 edit or tuner cat, edit is around 200 dollars for the pro version, plus a cable, after that you can do just about anything the high dollar aftermarket ecu's offer with a laptop just about anywhere you want, the LT1 maf does have its limit, though it is a great deal higher than the tpi piece, and there are new things being developed every day for the LT1. Not to mention its a He|| of a lot easier to work on an LT1 in a thirdgen, i've worked on LT1 4th gens, and TBI , TPI, and V6 thirdgens, by far the easiest to work on has been the LT1.

It also seems that a good bit of the intake modifying for the LT1 intake to run on a normal sbc, is poor on quality, not to mention good luck getting it past the smog police, yet another one of the main benifits to those looking to build something nice and still get past the morons at the smog centers, the LT1 can conform to that as a whole swap, whereas others are spending the price of a complete LT1 on just the superram intake setup, and still being left to pay for some heads to get past emissions, play with the challenge of tuning it, and gain the MUCH added hassle of working on a superram.

 

86 started the 1 piece seal, not 87.