Im kinda stuck on what to do... im goin for a 400SB(dont argue about gettin somthin else!) but i dont know if i should build it(if i even could) ive never built an eninge and never seen one built, but i figured it might be the only way to get the power i want.

-so how hard is it to build a SB from the bare block??
-Do you think some1 like me could do it? never having done it before?
-Wat should i look for as far as cost?
Second option
-I could buy a short block from a 79 firebird and build the rest of the engine (intake, carb, ect..)
-The only problem i see with the short block is the stock internals? how much power could i really pushout of these. and where does the power come from( like would puting aftermarket stuff after the pistons and crank, still make close to 350-400hp?

 

I just built my SBC 350 and it is finally in the car. This has taken over 2 years from the day I first began the project. I too, have never built an engine but have taken many engines apart. If you plan to build an engine, best to buy a book on how to build a Chevy engine. You can always go to a junk yard and buy a 400 SBC engine relatively cheap and either reuse the stock parts or get new parts depending on how much $$ you have. Here are some pros on building an engine; you know the part you are getting/using, feels good to build your own engine, save $$ building it on your own, and more later. Con’s on building; no warrantee if the engine malfunctions, take a while to build the engine, need to find a good shop that will clean/machine your block/heads.
Pros on buying an engine; comes with a warrantee, delivered in less than 1 week. Cons on buying an engine; Cost $$.

 

thanks for the info! i think im goin to buy, but would buyin a 400 Short block(the crank,block,pistons) out of a 79 firebird, do u think i could reach the 350hp mark, on the stock internals?

 

400 from a '79 Firebird... you sure its a CHEVY 400? They didn't come with those stock, they had either a 400 Pontiac or a 403 Olds engine.

 

well talkin to a guy at the auto parts store, i think he said 79 firebird, but if not then wat chevy came with the 400SB?

 

Early '70s Monte Carlos and Impalas, and trucks up to about 1980 or so.

 

I don't want to rain on your parade here, but if you've never built an engine before, I wouldn't assume that you are going to be getting "the power that you want." For instance, are you going to be using plastigage? I don't want to start a flame war, but if you are going to be building an engine properly you need an awful lot of expensive tools to do it right and I'm not talking about the 500 piece Craftsman tool set.

Don't get me wrong, there are guys that use plastigage and it turns out okay, but if you are going for some kind of power, plastigage is definitely not the best way to go.

(Checks drawer for nomex underwear. Dusts off flame suit).

 

You pretty much spelled it out...$200+ torque wrench, then the precision measuring tools, etc. will add up to more outlay than paying a shop to build it.

And then there's knowing how to use it all and build the engine.

If it were my first engine and I didn't have an experienced builder to walk me thru it there in person, I'd pay a shop to build it.

 

Yall guys are joking right??? Please say you are!!!

$200 torque wrench.. Is it gold??

A good name brand scale/beam wrench for $20-50 will work very very well. Used my craftsman beam for 10 years, built 100's of engines (I build and sell performance engines on the side out of my home)

For a good street engine that will last for 150K or so miles you don't need a bunch of high dollar tools. Heck you dont need much more than a socket set, torque wrench, engine stand and a ring compressor.

It's pretty easy to build a SBC engine. If its your 1st you'll need to do alittle reading. Get you a good how to rebuild a small block book. Ask alot of guys that knows, questions. A 1st timer could do it in a week (not counting machine shop time) In total 2-3 weeks, with you working alittle at a time in the eve. on it, and not rushing.

You can plastigage the bearing clearances (most kits comes with plastigage, if yours dont it.s just a buck or 2)

I use to use plastigage years ago, but since I got up into the 475-700 hp builds I use mics, dails, snap gauges, etc now, but never had a prob with plastigage in the past.

I used plastigage on 7-8,000 rpm 327's in the past, 400 hp, 450 hp 350's, etc. Never lost one due to main/rod bearing clearance probs. I lost one 337 on a 8500 rpm shift. Twisted a stock rod. Lost 1 355 due to messed up oil pressure gauge and not knowing I had 0 oil psi (oil pump pickup broke in half) Thats it, out of 10 years of building engines for me, my dad, my uncles, my buddies, and selling alot to other people

You can get the machine shop to check the bore, and tell you how much you will need to overbore to clean up. He will always mic the crank for you and tell you what it will need to be turned too and bearing size you need. Or you could just buy a new aftermarket crank for $150-250 and forget the $80-100 turning fee at machine shop and use std. size bearings.

If your rebuilding the heads, you will need a valve spring compressor ($25-40 for big C style one)

The machine shop will hot tank clean the block and check for cracks ($40-60)
Bore and hone block ($80-110)
and he'll put in the cam bearings and frezze plugs ($30-40)
He'll put the new pistons on the rods ($30-40)

You have too ways to go with rods. I would never use stock rod bolts, plus 400's are short rod engines and why I myself dont like them

You can buy ARP rod bolts for about $40, have the machine shop install them and resize big end of rods ($50-70)

Or you can buy aftermarket rods with good bolts already in them ($110-400) price depends on brand, and type rod

Have the machine shop pull the old crank timing gear off, and press on your new one ($5-10)

Also you can have the machine shop clean the heads ($30-40) Do a whole valve job (seats and valves) ($50-100)

Rest you do at home, with the engine on the stand.
Cam goes in 1st, then crank, check main bearing clearance with plastigage, ring the pistons, then install rods/pistons, check rod bearing clearance with plastigage, oil pump, oil pan, cam timing gear and chain, etc etc etc


BTW. Pont. didnt start useing chevy engines til 1982. All the 81's and back had pont. engines, very diff from chevys.

I would do a 350 if I was you. It's cheaper to build. The one I have in my 88 ran me right at $2500 for parts and machine work. Thats from air cleaner to oil pan. There's alot of probs with the 400 SBC that I wont get into but it's not an engine I would pick, plus too hard to find a good core and too high when you do. Every junkyard has 350 sbc cores from $50-300 around where i'm at. 2 bolt main cores $50-150, 4 bolt main $175-225. Running but smokes bad, not knocking but needs rebuilding $250-300

In my 88 I run high 12's in the 1/4 at 118 mph... No traction through 1st and second gear, even rolling into the throttle. If I had traction, with 118 mph trap speed that would be 11.40's ET in the 1/4 mile.

Mine aint a gutted race car.. Full weight power everything, ever 2 10" speakers in the back. Only weight cutting I done was the un needed computer wires (9 lbs), smog stuff, and the stock carpet and padding. Mine was too dirty, and I didnt have the money for new so I laided down some alum sound/heat blocker stuff, and cheap speaker box type thin carpet.

You can do a good milder one for alot less. Some of the stuff I bought you wouldnt need is..
ARP main studs $70
7 qt oil pan, and pick up ($96)
windage screen, rear main oil baffle ($40)
all alum under drive pulleys ($150)
alum valve covers ($75)
Theres about another $200 worth of small parts, dress up stuff etc you would have to have.

Good luck which ever way you go!

 

I've said many time I'd love to someday build my own, but I've always taken a "practical" approach to the problem. I have all of the tools needed to build a engine and measure everything-I own a construction business and have a tool fetish so I buy whatever looks cool. I also race with a ton of guys that build their own mills and many times they've all offered to help me out if I ventured down that avenue, but being how everybody and their brother are always asking me for help, I will not put that burden on other peoples shoulders since it gets very very old very fast, even though they mean well and dont do this everyday so it's not a like a job to them (like when I get asked to do stuff) so they enjoy helping.

But that brings up another point in my "practical thinking". The shops build motors everyday, this is their bread and butter and the countless lesson they've learned over the yrs is something you cant put a price on. For example, would you try to build an addition onto your house (or a house) and really think it's gonna save you money in the long run. Intentions are always good at first, but it's easy to get in over your head, often times the finished product is not nearly as good as if somebody with experience would've done it in the first place, plus all the wasted time, material, and labor fixing screw up's you did'nt know were screw up's until it is too late. Most of us like to "dabble" in things, but the older you get the less you'll like redoing stuff so you'll find it's just easier to have somebody else do it-especially when it comes to jerking motors since that gets to be old chit really fast and there's alot more $$$ going out the door other than the actual parts that broke, you have to consider the cost of all the fluids you must rebuy, gaskters, filter, another break in, etc...but most guys will never include the nickel and dime stuff that is often just as much as a build or close to it depending on the situation.

Alot of shops will work with you and you budget, not to mention many have pre-built shortblocks on the floor that are priced to sell cheaper than if you had them build the same set-up. Often they'll even modify that shortblock with different slugs or whatever to get it out their door. Most of these floor models are parts dropped off by customers and never picked up, so the shops will use these already finished parts to try and recoup the money they've already lost.

Someday I might try it, but after all these yrs and helping pull too many engines from stupid mistakes buddies have made, I'll let the guys that do this for a living take care of what goes in my race car since it saves me time and moeny in the big picture.

 

Although I feel bad that I rained on bac67's parade, and I wouldn't want to discourage someone from building an engine on their own, that quote pretty well sums it up. This is something you learn from experience.

IHI, you got some gray hair, do you?

 

I just built my own,...but it took 1-2 year to do also,...between pulling it out and building iut, and i will finish the install within the next couple of months. For me, i work alot, so i never have time to work on it and it often sits for months. also, I like to be pretty specific, and there are a lot of things you have to know, and also some things that are good to do. But i'm sure i missed alot of tricks and little things that you should do.....you look back and when you read a new article,...you see how you "should have" done something bettter. Like when I read that the cam should be installed first on this thread. it makes sense, wo you can giude it in easier i guess. Also, i read the otehr day about setting the rear main cap and gaskets better than i did and checking a clearance a certain way.....but I know i did a good job, and my motor will last. But there is always a chance of misssing something not too major,a nd it could cost me a motor. but then i can afford another one w/ all the money i saved and all i learned. you can use plasticgauge and cheaper torque wrenches...they'll be fine,..... a regular mild 350 (like you'd be building) , you just have to make sure you blueprint with atleast something, even if it is plasticgauge....the stuff actually works well...welll whatever, if you have a lot of time and don't mind running into things along the way and doing lots of research. otherwise have it built....next time,..i'd probably do it again,,,,we'll see how long this lasts

 

I'm bald, no joke, from pulling all my hair out!!! 30yrs old and bald!!! LOL, actually a good drunk story from yrs ago, but i just decided to keep it that way-easier to maintain

Everybody has their own situation they have to work within and I've tried alot of things with good intentions (especially when I was first on my own and budget for anything, was non-existent, but once you get older (wiser) and you start to make a little more money you start to realize-I'm usually not saving anything by trying these things myself!! I'm sure you and I know alot of guys that spend $20 to save a dollar-for some reason-wahtever the reason, that never sinks into these peoples brains, somehow they justify wasting all that time and money cuz "it only cost me this much" but these are ALWAYS the guys that NEVER truely tell you the entire budget they spent and are usually the guys having to redo stuff multiple times before they get it right-and always seem to leave that part out of the story when their telling it later down the road.

Point in case, best friend is tight as they come learned it from his father. 5 blown motors is 2 yrs bracket racing, I've blown none and race every weekend to his twice a month. On the latest motor this spring we had to change his dad told me, "I only have $500" in this motor. I stood up, shook my head, and told him directly, "I'm not impressed, tell that to the guys that have'nt helped change the 5th motor in this car in 2 yrs, maybe that'll impress them." After one race on the last motor-no oil pressure. Pretty impressive for $500 huh??

 

I just hope your buddy with the $500 engine doesn't do his brakes the same way he does his engines.

 

Believe me, EVERYTHING he does to that car is as cheap as it can be. Even after all the preaching I give which we're both tired of hearing, it dont make any difference, and yes, he's the typical fool of let's try to go as fast as possible-but not think about having to slow down. We dont street race like we did in high school, but you know how it gets when a group of guys your race with take the cars out for cruise night, showing off happens, just nature of the beast. I dont condone it, but it happens so I aint gonna go to the top of the mountain and preach, but after ya get a little older you consider alot more things before than after LOL!! Gett'n soft I guess. I dont buy the most expensive stuff, I cant and wont, but there is a fine line you can walk and get away with if you know what your doing.

Alot of these younger guys here on the boards think you have to have the million dollar crank, rods, pistons, heads, etc...but I say if the builder knows what he's doing you can get more with less. My shortblock is proof of that!!

Most his shortcuts are engine related-since he does engines quarterly We've all pointed out too that if he'd ever considered how much he has in all these motors chincing out he could have a well built unit that'd last, but then his dad will chime in and say, you never know thos good motors could blow up anytime too. But I still argue, how many guys we run with, pit with, freinds with, have ever done 1/2 as many engine swaps in 10 yrs as they've done in 2. It'll never sink in Long as it's their coin and not mine, and I told them after this lastest incident, I'm done helping them in the shop since I have a life to.

 

listen,....i haven't run mine yet, but that sounds like he didn't clearence the oil pump pickup or maybe he re-used a damaged pump. Anyway, The point is, it's not rocket science. there are some great books out there that explain exactly how to build them step by step. infact, it is old technology now. If you are not lazy and you do it all as they say, then you will be fine. Obviously, an engine guy knows little tricks and things to look for, but many times, they have kids like us working for them..In my case, I'm relatively sure that I did the job right, and I don't know how a shop may have done it. On Long island, the shops won't talk to you unless you want to spend $10k on a motor, unless you go to a shop that has "junior mechanics" doin the work and the pros checking it. anyway,...i could be wrong, but I think my motor will work and last. if not, I get to do it again and learn more. the hardest part is re-installing this setup w/ a superam and a s/c. besides for me it's a hobby, an i can no longer affor even $3k for a motor. Boy, i undersatnd much more about how they work now. I even know a good amount about cams now. I'll never be able to super tune....cause there are too many variables....but I think I know how to build what i want now. I'll let you know how it works out and if it don't blow up when i run it this year, i'll consider it a sucess...for me it will be. Besides, atleast i'll be able to move the car around to wax it and weld in my rollcage,,,,,which i am also doing myself first time. I hate relying on others,...and why pay someone to weld a cage in....i can do it pretty nice i'm sure if i take my time and enjoy the hobby.

 

Justine, we're not belittling you for doing it yourself. Helll I admire the fact you had the ballz to do it and I'm sure everything will work out since it sounds like you took the time and researched it before you started and applied what your learned. Have to let us all know how it ends up.

Cant remember all the things that blew the first few sbc in buddies car, the BBC he built, he used 2 peice valves against everybodies advise not to, they'll break, but he did'nt wanna spend the extra $210 for better 1 peice valves. So, end of the valve snapped off busting a piston, tearing up the head. So now the block he had just spent $550 to have machine work done now needs to go back in and either be rebored if the gouges can be cleaned up or sleeved and another piston ordered. The heads that he just spent $640 on-he now has one in the scrap heap and 1 good head with ****ty 2 peice valves. So now he has to find another set of heads or 1 head and have that redone. So, another $1K later he might have a running engine....but he saved $210 on valves though!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

last sbc he put in after the BBC blew, ended up having the pickup too close to the pan and starved it at the big end at higher rpm's....bye bye bearings and now that crank is junk, dont think there's enough metal to clean it up. But before that happened he put in a big hydraulic flat tappet, it kept pulled the studs for the rockers, so he had to beat them down into the head after every pass. Not saying cheap and brain dead work hand in hand, but in all my experiences they aint oo far off from each other-especially when you start getting older.

Same family, older brother races a 70 chevelle that's been drag raced since the father bought it new in 70. Well they build a huge grinder for it, he's literally ripped the bellhousings off 2 TH400. The car weighs 4000lbs with no cage and you can see it twist like crazy when he leaves. Well after 30yrs of drag racing the chasis is going to be shot after being twisted for yrs and yrs, but instead of adding a cage to stiffen up the chasis, their dad's solution: install 1 rubber and 1 solid motor mount. When i asked how much they wanted to bet me he'd rip another tranny in 2, I'd get this schpeal about twisting and torque and this and that....blah blah, cant wait to see it happen this spring so again I can say I told ya so....cuz after the 2nd tranny broke I was the world biggest ***** for telling them if they'd ever thought about spending a little money and doing stuff right the first time they would've have these problems. Funniest part was all of them made fun of me for buying the parts I bought saying I was spending too much, after both their cars were out of competition for the rest of the year and I was still going rounds and winning races (going faster than either of them), I asked their old man after the races, if he'd learned anything about trying to do things right once and being done-nope I just go lucky he said.

I've always just bought the short block and then installed everything else myself since there' not too much I can screw up. I just get nervious with all the clearance issues for some reason

 

IHI,

The scary thing about those kind of people:

1. All of us know at least one person like that (and in some cases its a relative);

2. When they get in an accident (sooner or later) they end up killing at least one other person, and they walk away from it; and

3. They vote and have children.

 

Paradyse, you're kinda right but maybe that's a little too political for this board. just kidding lol
Anyway, IHI: I agree with what you are saying. I think I found a happy boundry between the two. I try to do things that make sense. I changed the weak links in the motor. I stopped at things like the rods and crank, cause they help up before and that is not a "weak" point in a sbc. But I did the studs and made sure i set the ring gap properly on the blower pistons that i upgraded too. I blueprinted the block to. I also am making sure to ask questions on everything i am not sure about. About the guy that never got the rollcage and bent his car, I am building one of those cages myself too. If I don't like the results, i'll cut it out with the sawzall and re-weld it. However, I may cheat and by a prebent kit and then modify it though. Anyway, thanks for the compliment, i was just trying to present the other side of it.
When i was younger i would just order a crate motor ( i did), but I want to be able to also say "I BUILT" this motor completely. But I am not being "pennywise and pound foolish" or whatever the phrase is. I am doing everything that has to or "should" be done. I do disagree with one thing though. You say that as you get older you get smarter and start spending to have someone do it, rather than do it yourself and have it keep breaking. Although it is a money thing where I truely would not be getting any motor at all if i didn't build mine myself, the truth is: As I have gotten older, i feel simply that i should not pay someone else to do something that i am COMPLETELY capable of doing. I have a mortgage to pay, and I am remembering that this is a hobby. I don't care how long it takes. But if I didn't think i could do it, I would pay someone....but I know i can....even if there are a few bumps along the way. i am real anxious to see if the motor holds up, but more anxious to have it run so i can weld in the cage....i know that I will definately get good results there if i take my time. But you're right, I can't guarentee my engine results. Anyway, i'll keep you all posted on the results of the motor.

 

I'm glad to see guys understand the why buy vs why build idea.

I'm all for building, your learn from it. Heck if your scared your gonna mess up, build a cheapy stock type engine 1st.. You knowe $100 for core, $300 for machine work, $150 for rebuild kit., etc and see how it turns out, and go from there.

I'm not a person that don't add up all the little things. I keep very solid data, even down to a 4 cent bolt at the hardware store for mine.

To show that, look here... My "spent on car file"
Total $6940.85 Down to the cent, and thats buying the car, fixing interior up, new gauges, new tires, rebuilding the engine, th-400, 2800 stall, new u joints, locker, better axles, etc etc etc.

I save all the info like that. On that list I have all the little stuff counted like...
$0.65 2 1/2" star washers, 1 carter key (Ace hardware)

$1.07 2 rolls of masking type (dollar general)

$0.64 4 7/16'' fine threaded bolts w/ washers (home depot)


Building engines really aint that bad. I started when I was 12 years old. My 1st one was a for an older buddies car. I went by a early 70's hot rod car rag "how to rebuild a SBC" 4 page write up. Engine lasted for 3 years (about 40K miles), and it was built for only $400 (no machine work, hone job done at home), and took my buddies 72 chevelle to low 9's in the 1/8th mile.

I have aways loved the fact that I can proudfly say "yep, I built it" and start calling out the specs like if they was your own phone number or something

 

yeah, that' what i said about the yeah i built it and about the book, it's all in the book...same book for 30 years

 

No, it's accurate.

 

I agree, there's soo much pride being able to say " I did it" and I've done everything on my car but the engine/tranny. Helll, I'm like a little school girl with every construction project we complete Tranny is too much imo for the average joe to attempt and like I said, I've had more than my fill of motor swaps thus far in my life and will gladly let anybody else take on that task Used to look forward to that yrs ago, now even thinking about it makes me sick and shoves all ambition into the back corner.

On the torque wrench issue, the old beam wrench may work in a pinch, but as technology progressed, I'll take my trusty ole MAC click click torque wrench over the pull and watch wrench What's the phrase-"set it and forget it"

The month when I changed over my drivetrain, I have an account at O'Reilly's, it was a tad over $1100 for all the nickel and dime stuff. fluids, filters, wires, connectors, nuts' bolts, belts, hoses, spark plugs, brake clean, rags, etc....so nice sine I get a statement at the end of the month and yeah, I damnn near chit bricks when I opened that bill!!! The big studd is cheap, the lil stuff will kill ya....I call it the chain link fence complex. At first glance chain link looks cheap....add up everything you need to make the chain link fence work, it aint so cheap no mo!!

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by IHI
[B]... Tranny is too much imo for the average joe to attempt and like I said, I've had more than my fill of motor swaps thus far in my life and will gladly let anybody else take on that task

A tranny is too much for the average joe and a lot of shops. I understand that's why GM and a lot of other manufacturers went to the reman -- the trannies are too complicated. Pull the old trans, put in a reman and you are good to go.

 

i have to agree about the tranny,....not sure if i'll ever look into that. but, that doesn't matter. i have a $80 craftsman click torque wrench that is great,....but isn't nearly as nice as my friends Snap On $200 one, that one is just sweet to use.