jj74sd455

havent done mine yet. im stocking parts and doing research to do my swap next spring. ive got a 73 455, got to round up a th400 tranny and get em built over winter.

Formula_Fire

Yep my project is on perminate standby for the moment. I still haven't sold my 79 formula to get money to do this one and the person I was talking to about the IA mounts to copy them disappeared. So my bird is parked for the winter. If I can get the other car gone maybe I can think about it in the spring.

jj74sd455

well, i talked to a guy with an 82 that put an 81 turbo 301 in his with no problems. i guess pontiac intended to use the 301 in the 82s before they were canceled. he said he used the second gen mounts and the holes for them were already drilled in the 82. if the bolt holes arent there for ours its not a big deal to drill the holes. the tranny crossmember will have to be modified along with the driveshaft and youll need an adjustable torque arm. im going to use a pair of 70 400 exhaust manifolds on my 455. im also going to use a built th350 for the swap. i plan on putting some 3.55s in the rear also. my goal is to have everything to do the swap by spring.

Formula_Fire

If your doing the th350 trans you can use our cross member but you need to redrill it and get a drive shaft made and torque arm. If you used the 700r4 you just need a $90 adapter plate for the pontiac pattern from TCI. This is the route I am planing on going, keep my stock trans (and overdrive so I can cruise above 70 with the engine not howling at 5k), get a 454 tbi unit (which is a quadrajet bolt on replacement and has higher flow than the 305 or 350 units), reflash the comp, find or make mounts for the 400 to make it fit under the hood. Probably gonna use stock log manifolds off a second gen (have a brand new set) keep my dynomax exhaust, get a y pipe made and poof instant sleeper.

jj74sd455

yeah i talked to a guy with a 64 bonneville using the 700r4. he made his own adapter plate for $15. im going with a holley 750 double pumper on mine. the 3.55 gears should keep me at a decent rpm on the highway. the 2004rs can be built just as well as the 700r4s and they have the uni bolt pattern. the adapter will cause clearance problems in the front of the engine though.

Formula_Fire

How could the adapter in the rear cause issues in the front of the engine I'm confused? And yea the carb route would probably be easier. I know you can buy return regulator for a decent price and keep the elec fuel pump on our cars and convert to carb pretty easily.

You still don't have me sold on the th350 JJ seems like alot of work to mod the cross member and then have to have a custom drive shaft made where a $90 adapter could do the same thing and keep my gas mileage down and engine spinning low. As it is stock I spin under 2k at 80 and get like 26~28 MPG. The 400 with the 454 tbi is already gonna be thirsty.

That said if your planning on racing this or putting in a really hot cam (taking a guess with the 750 dbl) hell yea a built TH350 is the trick. Hell I have 2 BOP TH350's (and a th400) sitting in the storage unit with my 79 parts.

jj74sd455

its a pretty tight space to put a pontiac v8 in, the adapter is a plate that bolts between the engine and transmission,if your transmission isnt moving back then your engine will be moved forward. when dealing with a tight space every bit counts.i talked to a well known transmission builder about using the 700r4 to keep my rpms down and he convinced me a th350 with the 3.55 rear gears wont be bad on the highway and will last longer behind the pontiac v8. i hate the electric fuel pump so im gonna use a high flow mechanical pump in mine.

Formula_Fire

Gotcha, and yep the adapter is about 1/2" thick which pushes the trans back that much a few others have done it and the trans mount plate and yoke take it up no problem. I used to have a bone stock 2bbl 305 nova with a th350 in it and granny gears (beleive 2.73's) and that sucker howled at 75.... Like easy 3500rpm.

This should be pretty interesting JJ I think you and me are going direct opposite directions here lol. Your going for the huffing puffin muscle car and I'm going for the make it look like factory. Either way gonna be bad ***.

jj74sd455

im gonna do whatever it takes to keep everything under the hood. i dont want a cowl inducted hood at all. i plan on having enough power to make the ricers think twice,lol.

tajoe

iTrader: (1)

Good luck. I'm also looking to drop an 80 turbo T/A 301 into an 84 T/A with a T5. (looking mostly for milage). Interested in more info if possible.

jj74sd455

the guy i talked to was on the high performance pontiac forums http://forums.highperformancepontiac...irds/index.htm
his name was PMDturboV8

tajoe

iTrader: (1)

Thanx for the reply! I owe you one.

L695speed

I'm in the process of restomodding my 84. My drivetrain is up in the air. I'm looking for 350-400 HP maybe a lil more at least at the crank, if not the wheels. I really want to keep it a manual. But before I go any further, I'll admit I skipped some pages in this thread.

I was toying with the 350 SBC, 383 stroker, but paint it Pontiac blue and drop it in. Naturally I'd run the T5 or a T56 or Richmond 6 speed with that. But then I thought what the hell, why not a Poncho motor. I was thinking a 400 CI Poncho, same power output yet keep the stock look of the car. Now with that I'm probably stuck running a Richmond 6. I'm also intent on keeping my stock 10 bolt as it has 3.73 gears and posi. This is going to be a street car mainly, with the occasional tracking.

I read maybe the first 6 pages or so then skipped. It seems like at least one person was able to keep the stock power buldge hood. I want to do that too. Other than motor mounts it seems like its a direct swap. But do I need to ditch my AC and etc if I do this? Just toying with the idea, want to know what I'm gonna have to do to make such a drivetrain work.

Thanks.

KrisW

iTrader: (5)

No need to ditch the AC. Make sure you have the front pulley and bracket setup for a second gen firebird or the 78-87 G body. That will keep the accessories under the hood.

If you search this site enough, you will find the photos of the 82 T/A with the 455 stuffed under the hood by Pontiac as an R&D mule. It fit nicely with all the accessories. I have also seen the 301 Turbo in there as well.

Good luck!

Formula_Fire

Yep the trick is making engine mounts that will make the engine sit low enough so everything clears.

KrisW

iTrader: (5)

I think that the motor mounts from a 2nd Gen will get that done.

Formula_Fire

They will work yes but last time I checked I think they still make the engine sit high enough that the stock hood will not clear. Now I haven't tried 2nd gen mounts but seems like a few others had and said that the hood wouldn't clear. The only people I have heard of making the hood clear either made their own or used Indian Adventures (which don't exsist anymore).

face215

I want this swap too!!! and my research has found that you can use motor mounts for a 77-79' firebird with the 3rd gen clamshells, from what ive heard they should bolt up? for headers use hedman p/n 35140 for a 70' firebird with the #7 primary altered!!

KrisW

iTrader: (5)

I am getting close to having my Pontiac power dreams emerge. I got the test car, and now I have a few more parts to assemble. My 2nd gen measurements and third gen sbc measurements seem to be close enough to put the engine at the proper height. I think the reason that hood clearance is a problem is the Pontiac engine itself. Any aftermarket intake and immediately you are too high, it seems.

I'll let you know how it turns out.

Formula_Fire

Actually High Performance Pontiac and a bunch others have run the flow numbers (plus real life testing) if you look into it the stock intake is a pretty damn good intake stock and even better with a decent port match. Aside from that yes the IR mounts dropped the engine a bit so you could run a aftermarket intake plus I believe they helped keep the drive-line angles correct and clear the alternator. You can run stock F-bird mounts and it will work but they leave the engine higher so the alt hits and aftermarket intakes are to high.

Me personally I am planning on running my stock alternator from my 92 on there (smaller and more powerful). I put them side by side and they are about the same front to back and in relation to mounting location. With the pulleys swapped all I will need to do is modify the upper (sliding) bracket (chop and reweld and lower angle) to meet up with the smaller alts top bolt.

As far as hood clearance... Well it depends on what direction I go. I am either gonna make a home brewed twin turbo setup and keep it under the hood for a sleeper look....

OR since I got rid of my 79 and don't have a more knarly hot rod style platform. So I am playing around with the idea of a 144ci (or 6-71) roots super charger on it but looks like I would have to have a manifold fabbed up or modify one and make my own pulley's to make that happen. If I went with roots I would be using a (smooth finless) street scoop so I'm not to worried about hood clearance as there would be a hold cut in it anyway lol.

I forgot to mention I will probably make my own mounts (using the stock SBC frame side) if I go with the turbo or stock type setup. But if I do the roots I may not bother and just use my second gen mounts.

I've also been thinking 2nd gen mounts do work why not just modify them so they sit a little lower? All you would have to do is slot the mounting area lower the engine till you have a good height that you like and then mark it and fill in the original holes so it doesn't move. Thought about that the other night and kinda wondered why no one had bothered to try it. Maybe I'll be the gunnnie pig on that one.

Roland Racing

'74sd455-
that info is right as verified by one of my sponsored customers- arnie beswick.
the 81 year young pontiac icon related to me that PMD put a ton of r&d $ into the short deck 265/301/301T platform back in the late '70's, hoping gm would give it the ok for production install in third gen ponchos. unfortunately, corporate had other plans...

but that cant stop aftermarket!!!

enter the new availability of 4.5" stroke forged crankshafts that will drop right in a factory 400 poncho block, giving 501 inches of affordable displacement!
but you must feed this beast...
stock design pontiac heads use small siamese ports like an SBC. good for moving heavy cars at low rpm's, but limited at providing good breathing for a big inch performance piece.
thats where a splayed valve, symmetrical port head would be a bolt on utopia for this scenario...
for an intake, how 'bout an LS style efi? the CVI-2 ram intake can be machined to use the '93-'94 ford cobra 1300cfm accufab oval front mount throttle body that will clear stock 3rd gen hoods.
food for thought,
jim
www.rolandracing.com
www.cv-1channel.com
ps. about those headers??? check out the cutback convertible exhaust option that comes with flanges for ez header fab-

BGM PERFORMANCE

How many here would like a complete 3rd Gen to Pontiac conversion kits, with everything you need such as headers, mounts, throttle cable, and new bracket work for the front accessories to mount lower? I have done several conversions to Pontiac power and it is always either leave the engine sitting up or make the mounts. Then the alt. needs to be relocated. I have been thinking about doing another one of these set ups for my 383 Pontiac (301 block based stroker) and with that would be also a few changes for the standard deck height Pontiac 389 comparision. I have both iron and aluminum D-port heads, and the round port style such as the Edelbrock and CV-1 heads. If there is enough interest, I will make a run of kits for it to be easy for you and the trying to chase parts that may or may not work hassle would be eliminated. Let me know if you would be interested.

face215

wow! thats a relief to anyone who wants the poncho swap!!! im not ready for the swap yet but a kit or kits would help down the road when i get the motor and trans!!!!!

72vega

iTrader: (9)

would be very interested in a all in one swap "kit"

onira710

Summit sells a set of D-port block huggers for $300.. Thats what Im going to use to turbo my pontiac 400. Im going to weld up all the turbo piping but these headers are a good start.

jj74sd455

id be interested in the engine mount set and the alternator relocation kit. ive got a set of headers ill modify to fit.

PA3rdGenT/A

i am interested in all the information on the swap I can get. I have the motor and transmision. I looks all over for the motor mounts and headers but I can't find anything. I tried that Indian adventure and wouldn't find it. Would I be able to use the factory mounts if I have a cowl hood?

PA3rdGenT/A

I would be interested in the swap kit for the right price. Send pics and info to lowridnfool@yahoo.com

ryan85TA305

BGM - Sounds like a sweet deal. I've also been doing a lot of searching for mounts/headers/etc. I'm sure this would clear up quite a few headaches.

Definitely looking forward to that offer!

Formula_Fire

Ditto so long at its not a rediulious cost.

jj74sd455

ive been so busy just keeping my birds on the road that i havent had any cash for my build. still gathering info and parts though. the way the chevy tpi 305 is treating me it might save me more cash in the long run.

spdmetl

In for the mounts/headers swap kit-I'll buy it even if I don't have a third gen right now !

weesel72

iTrader: (-1)

Where do you find "removing the computer controls and going to a traditional carb"? I am looking to do this with my 91 formula. Thank you

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Go to the thirdgen.org home page, look for the tech articles link (on the left side of the page).

weesel72

iTrader: (-1)

Thanks for the help. One question i do have is this, I want to replace the cc wireharness with a harness for a carb set up. Is there one i can buy, or directions how to make one? Getting rid of the cc wireharness would free up a lot of room, since more than half the harness isn't needed. Thanks!

KrisW

iTrader: (5)

Which Pontiac V8 are you putting in your Firebird, weesel?

The CC Quadrajet wiring, is that what you are talking about eliminating?

weesel72

iTrader: (-1)

Right now it has the 305 TBI, and im converting it (same engine) to carb, until i can get a 350. I'm looking to eliminate the cc wiring harness as a lot of it is not needed for a carb, so i was wondering if there is somewhere to buy a harness,or if i have to make one? The car does have power windows and locks, if that matters? Also, how do i get rid of the a/c and air pump as far as the serpentine belt goes? Thanks in advance!

KrisW

iTrader: (5)

I think you might be in the wrong place on the forums, but that's expected since you only have 7 posts! It takes a while to get around here and learn everything!

This thread is just for putting a REAL Pontiac V8 (1955-1982) into a third gen, which never came with one from the factory. Your third gen came with a small block chevy, and it seems you are looking to convert it to carb.

There are lots of other places to start a new thread and get all the help you need. You could hit the carb forums, or even the engine swap forums and get plenty of help there.

Make sure to be specific when you ask over there, what a "cc" harness is. Does that mean computer controlled? Anyway, be as specific as possible when you start your new thread.

Good luck!

weesel72

iTrader: (-1)

Yep, i'm rather new,lol. Thanks for your help!

Formula_Fire

Just a little update on my LONG term project... I actually lost my 400 block.... But I just made a deal for a rebuilt 350 pontiac block. Now I just need to assemble it and find some cheap used shorty headers to see if they will fit.

KrisW

iTrader: (5)

You may want to try some stock 70's era manifolds before you go to headers. Reason being, the Ram Air manifolds have been known to fit and flow as well as headers.

Good luck on your mock up, don't forget to take pictures!

Formula_Fire

Yea I know Kris one problem though... shorties $200 ne,w ram air $500+ and used one practically don't exist... I'm on a no money budget hence why it is taking so long getting this project moving. If shorties for a 2ng gen will work I can probably score a used set for cheap. I don't see why not they follow the same routing as the ram airs if you look at the pictures side by side. One way to find out and as far as I know no one doing this swap has tried it. We know full length will not work without being modified because they hit the floor pan when they go under the car.

Now my biggest issue will be finding some heads on the cheap the stock heads are code 7h1 1972 heads which are A. leaded and B. One the worst performing heads they made. Smaller valves, made for the 175 BHP 2bbl cars. Edelbrocks are too pricy I'm thinking mid to late 70's 6x off a 400.

KrisW

iTrader: (5)

I am also a super budget guy, and I unintentionally misled you with what I said. What I meant was to just use stock 70's manifolds initially. Once you got the engine fitted in the car with the manifolds, it would be really easy to upgrade to the Ram Air manifolds later because they fit wherever the original manifolds fit.

No way was I suggesting to drop 500 bucks right off the bat hahahahhaha!

Sorry for leading you to believe that. On another note, you should do tons of research about the heads before you worry about what used set to pick up. I am not sure about Pontiac, but Buick and Olds have such a high nickel content in them that you typically do not have to put hardened seats in them for unleaded gas like you have to with Chevy. Check before you get it done. Lots of good heads get ruined by people automatically assuming that it must be done. Some small chamber 60's heads, used of course, may be just the ticket for you.

Good luck on your swap.

Formula_Fire

Gotcha lol. The ram airs would be nice eventually but shorties would look more at home I think and still be way cheaper.
Well the guy I got the heads from used lead additive in them and I am planing on retaining my cat and fuel injection so I don't think the leaded additive will work real well.

spdmetl

Are there any Pontiac-swapped cars running around, and can anyone provide links or pix?

L695speed

Ok guys, its been a couple years, so I'm gonna ask a couple of key questions that need answers in relation to the Pontiac engine swap.
Power figures have been upped to at least 475 at the flywheel if not a lil more. Sorry if these have been addressed, but its been a couple years and I'm running out of chassis work to do, want to nail down my engine combo.

First, and most important, I have an LT1 T56. What would need to be done to make it work with a Pontiac 400 or any Pontiac motor? Can it be done at all without being a royal PITA?

Second and also as important, can you keep the factory hood? The 84 TA came factory with the reverse facing turbo buldge style hood as seen on the later Formula cars. I really want to keep my hood since the goal of the project is to have it appear stock. I'm building a sleeper to the point of you need to know what you are looking at to know I did anything to it. Changes such as switching to 16 inch formula wheels that look very similar to the originals for example, are among the slight changes I will be making visually.

Finally, what are people doing for mounts as that seems to be the final major hurdle. It seems some people are using factory mounts and getting them to work from certain cars. Which ones work?

If I do this swap as opposed to the more standard 383 or 406 swap, it will be more interesting. But I want this to be done within reasonable effort and time. Meaning no massive fab work.

Thanks, guys.

KrisW

iTrader: (5)

Speedway motors sells an adapter that lets you bolt the T56 to a regular Pontiac (B-O-P) bellhousing. If you want to go aftermarket, just call Summit or Jeg's, they know which McLeod or Lakewood bellhousing will work, even with the 17* rotation. So there's that.

That factory hood can be kept with a factory style intake. No high rise stuff. The car was actually designed for 1982 to offer the 301 Turbo as the high performance option but the entire Pontiac engine program was scrapped instead. The remaining 301 and 265 engines were used until they were gone and then replaced with small block chevy in the A/G body cars. There is even a picture on this site somewhere that shows a GM Performance R&D car that was a 1982 Trans Am with an SD 455 under the hood. With a stock intake and quadrajet carb it fit under the Power Bulge hood. Even had A/C. I'd say if you had a stock 4bbl intake or an Edelbrock Performer you'd be okay, but you might have to mill down that Performer until the flange was perfectly flat for the clearance. I plan on using a Performer and machining it until it works.

For motor mounts, I am going to use mid to late 70's second gen Firebird Pontiac V8 mounts. You can buy the shells to bolt to the engine from places like Year One, or Classic Industries. The lower motor mounts are available at the auto parts store for around 10 bucks each. As for the holes lining up, I am sure that will have to be addressed.

When I swapped in a similar set of Oldsmobile second gen Firebird mounts for a 350 Olds, I had the heads off the block and just the oil pan on at the bottom. I bolted the engine block to the trans, and put the trans in the factory mount position. Then I lowered the block to the crossmember and assembled all the motor mounts. I set the motor mounts down on the crossmember and then with the block weight holding them down, I scooted it back and forth until it was pretty well centered. I marked the holes by yellow spray paint all over the mounting holes for the lower motor mounts. I pulled the engine back out, drilled the holes I had to drill (slotted a couple of existing ones, too) and then bolted the lowers on. I would imagine it will be the same experience with the Pontiac engine.

The Oldsmobile had a flat bar strap bolted to the block and then it was drilled so that the upper shell bolted in a different position than just being bolted straight to the block. I am guessing you could do that with the Pontiac too, but I'm not sure yet.

tajoe

iTrader: (1)

Glad to see you guys keeping this thread alive. I'm trying to do to the same type of swap, but haven't been able to get there yet. still trying to tie up loose ends first. Keep at it, and good luck.

face215

So a friend of mine had a 400 pontiac motor that he needed to get rid of cause he has too many 400's and 455's!!!! i wish i had that problem! so i got real lucky and i aquired it from him now im 1 pc closer to my pontiac swap, now all i need is a bop 200R and my combo is set, but the 400 needs a rebuild and i dont have the id numbers off the heads and block yet and still need to get it up my engine stand, but im looking to make like 400 horse for the street only nothing too crazy, i hope the rear end holds up!!!

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Turbo the stock engine...