Guys I think we made him cry.

 

yes,you made me cry,boo hoo,i am crying.





some of the best motors in history are four bangers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offenhauser

http://www.ferrariturbo.com/Ferrari/...1/555f155.html



these are some of the cars that have inspired me to build a four instead of an 8.

i am well aware that i can get more hp from a v8,but i dont want or need more then what the four offers,i dont plan on racing it. but i dont want the same car as everybody else.
if i wanted a v8,belive me,i would have bought one.



ok,so i heard from this boat guy that the 3.7 isnt as reliable as the 3.0,and reliablity is very important.
so im going with the 3.0 instead. plus it allready been put in several fieros,and the cranks even fit in the 2.5 block.and the 3.0 is still being made from gm,so parts are availible over the counter.

it only has 120hp but a new cam should boost that to about 150. and since the heads for the 2.5 vinR fit the 3.0 i can reuse the intake and exhaust i have now.plus i can keep the stock tbi. that should save alot of time and money. but the mounts and the power steering pump are still an issue.
the pump is on the wrong side,so i have to either extend the lines or move the pump to the other side.
i think moving the pump would be better then extending the lines,belt clearence might be an issue around the hoses if they are just extended.

and i definitly need a new radiator from a v8,boat motors are designed to run cooler then car motors. and ill probably use an electric water pump,someone with the 2.5 said they had their truck dynoed before and after an epump and got 7hp at the wheels,thats definitly worth
$75. and an under drive pully set should get a few more hp.

plus,all 3.0s are painted black,so it will look alot better then the 2.5s blue paint,especialy in a black car,and i might get some stainless steel braiding for all the hoses,
maybe go with a black and silver color scheme under the hood.i could also get a crome air cleaner and scuff it with steel wool to match the rest of the engine.

 

Uh huh

 

 

I know people with fast 4 bangers, running in the 11's and some even 10's. All are boosting above 1.5 bar and they put down between 375rwhp to 550rwhp. All those cars are under 2500 pounds WITH the driver. I dont see that happening anytime soon with a 3rd gen being built on a budget. Sorry. Yeah its possible, anything is possible, but you're talking some major $$. Our cars are above 3000 pounds stock WITHOUT the driver so you're looking at a 600 pound difference at the minimum, probably more along the lines of a 800 pound difference, maybe even 1000 pounds.

But hey, if you're gonna go through all the trouble of swapping the entire drivetrain (which is what it sounds like you're considering) at least pick a 4banger with some *****. Pick one that was built from the factory to be boosted so it has foarged internals, then put on a bigger turbo and boost the crap out of it. You'll get alot more bang for your buck.

 

well im definitly going with the 3.0,it is still made by gm today,and its damn near indestructible.

and i think it comes with forged internals allready,and it can handle all the power i can give it.

plus its just a bored out 153,and it came stock in the nova
and the jeep,so i know it will work in a firebird.

after all,putting a gm motor in a gm car should be easier then fitiing in the 3.7,it turns out the 3.7 is a ford motor,so that explains why it has cobra jet heads and why its a piece of crap.


and i would like a super from a 3800 for it,but i would need a
custom intake manifold and i would have to switch to a carb.
and i have no idea what ignition i would need for the 181 to be blown.

if i figure that out,it should have 200hp at the wheels.
but thats a future project,im goona just worry about getting the motor and a trans to fit.

i will probably need a new trans,the 153 has a small block bell housing bolt pattern,so a v8 trans should work and bolt in without alot of problems.

i would like a 6 speed,but i dont know enough about them yet. i might go check the trans boards for info.

 

Personally i would look for a turbo in a junk yard or on ebay, if you got tricky and could find 4 of them and make a quad turbo (dont know if its possible.... not a turbo guru) having one come off each exhaust port and make a custom header and intake. That would be cool and definetly unique. Make sure your engine has all forged internals. It would be cool if you shot nos in with the boost for any r1ce at stop lights. Make it handle like a mother fker too, so beat them in all worlds. By the way, go with an intermediate seat so you can still be comfortable with minimal weight, the leather seats i understand are kind of heavy, T/A's started getting heavy so they split off to T/A's and GTA's, the GTA's had leather etc. and were heavier then the T/a's. Excuse me if im wrong on any of this, appologys in advance, ive been up for 23 hours and writing this from memory. While i dont neccesarily agree with your choice, it is just that, your choice, make this a fast mother and impress all the naysayers, go weak and they will say i told you so.

 

I would never swap in a 4 cylinder and if I wanted to be different I would use either a northstar or a vortec 4200 I-6

have you thought about using one of the colorado motors

vortec 3500 I-5 220hp@5600rpm 225lb-ft@4000rpm. with 90% of its peak torque from 1600 to 5600rpm

or

vortec 2800 I-4 175hp@5600rpm 185lb-ft@4400rpm with 90% of its peak torque from 2000 to 5600rpm

 

Now that vortec I5 might be something to consider.

 

Okay, I think we've seen enough of the non-tech crap.

If you have a technical observation to offer, go ahead and post. Otherwise, keep the other stuff off the Board. You know full well the rules don't allow it.

 

yeah i know, im crazy for wanting to put a gm motor in a gm car,yeah,thats never been done before.i guess you dont know why gm built the fbody in the first place,so they could fit any gm motor into !!!



so you let me know when your paying for it and ill put in any motor you want. until then....




now as far as the other vortecs go, i doubt i could afford one of those,even a used one from a wreck would cost more
then i am willing to spend, but they are some powerful little motors ,and i always did like inline 5s. find one for cheap and i would consider it.but i would need all the wiring and sensors and computers for it.

i have considered using a 2.2 ecotech, but i would have to swap in all the computers and sensors and wiring,and it wouldnt be able to handle more then 200hp,and i dont know about reliablity at that much hp.

the 181 is cheap, new parts are still built by gm,and i can use my stock tbi and its iron.sure its heavier,but it can handle up to 300hp without compramising reliability.
hell a rebuild kit is only$400,and i can get the block for almost nothing . and i think i can reuse the stock intake and exhaust i all ready have if i use a type R head from a 2.5.

the stock 3.0 came without crossflow heads,so i have to do a head swap anyway.plus any money i save on a swap will be used to upgrade the suspension,a coil over kit would be nice,and maybe a fourth gen rear end .i have to put on new springs first anyway. thats for this weekend.


oh and for the seats,i might try using some hyundia tiburon seats,they look good,are cheap,and very light.
i dont know about them bolting right in,but that should be easy to fix.

 

The nice thing about the 2.5 and 3.0's are, there is no timing chain or belt, it's a mesh gear that drives the cam so no worry about timing changing as the motor gets miles on it. Now for heads, the 2.5 is basically half of a 283 (151 CI) but I will have to look at mine and see if the bolt pattern is the same, but for some reason I think it's different so you might want to look at bolting on a later 2.5 head if they are the same to get better flow out of them, the marine engines used a more aggressive cam since the distributor worked on mechanical advance only and no vacuum, but I don't know how it would fare being in a car, but I'm sure that you could find one for a car engine with the same specs. The 151 (120hp) in my boat has been bored .060 and I have no overheating problems so you may, and I say may be able to bore the engine and make it bigger, I'm wanting to say that the 181's were stroked but the bore was the same, I don't have my manual here so I can't check the specs out right now.

 

the 2.5 is half a pontiac 301. and the 3.0 is a bored out 153 chevyll .

the 3.0 has a 4.0inch bore and a 3.6inch stroke.

the stock 2.5 is a 4inch bore and a 3.0 inch stroke.


and i have heard the 2.5R heads will bolt to the 3.0.
making it a crossflow head.but i would need to see them side by side to be sure.


and i know the 3.0 crank will fit in a 2.5,but the crank has to be machined to fit the trans. fiero guys do it all the time to make a stroker.

im gonna get a new 3.0 crank and a stock2.5 crank and take them both to machine shop and have them match the 3.0 to the 2.5. im sure a good shop will figure it out and make it work properly.


and i want to keep my tbi,i dont realy like carbs,so the 3.0 will work with it just fine,it may need some computer tweeking,but it need that anyway. the computers are over 22 years old now,modern computers and programing would help alot.

i bet i can get 30mpg hiway with it when im done,and have more then 150hp and 200tq .
compared to the 20mpg and 80hp now,thats a great improvement.
but that 5banger vortech looked very cool. but the cost is just too much. unless i can find aued one or a wrecked one.
as it is now the 3.0 will work great.especialy for the price.

 

What is the price tag of the 3.7 engine?

edit: nevermind it was already stated and discussed

 

sadley it was a ford ,so its not very reliable.


but the 3.0 can be bought from a boat shop for almost nothing and a rebuild kit is $375,and comp cams makes a performance cam kit for it,and silvolite makes a piston set for it.

you just have to make sure and get a standard rotation,not counter clockwise.

 

There has been some interesting info here...but lets get back to reality.

This swap won't happen...it makes no cost sense to do it and I can bet that Wellington isn't an eccentric baby boomer with a million dollars in the bank...but rather a poor young guy who doesn't have the experience to know how bad an idea this is...

Nothing personal here...but ignorance can be a blindfold in a situation like this.

Instead of posting a thread like this...do yourself a favor and use the SEARCH button to read more about actual trial and error to improve your situation.

Or...

Actually do the swap and prove me wrong...but this isn't the 1st time Thirdgen has seen monkey-spank internet discussions about someone's insane fantasy

Does "therckid" ring a bell to anyone?

 

first off,the 153 is a gm motor,and the fbody was built to accept any gm motor. and this has been done in FIEROS before.if anything it will be easier then a fiero swap.

second,i live in florida,and used boat motors are a dime a dozen.and rebuild kits are $300.

third,im currently talking to several people who are putting a 3.0 crank in their 2.5s, the machine work is the same,and also a rat rod builder who has a 153 rod.

fourth, im currently doing the reaserch on the swap,i have read the posts where people ****ed up their swap,and i dont want to repeat their mistakes.

fifth,i dont give a **** about big hp,that means nothing to me.
all i want is 150hp,and a new cam kit for the 3.0 is $250.


sixth,if i had said i wanted a 350 you couldnt praise me fast enough,but because its a four cylinder,all you can do is talk ****.

seventh,every other thing i have tried to fix i have fixed,i have done almost everything to a car except a motor swap. i would have done my own clutch,but i was too sick at the time[gallbladder].but i did balljoints 1 week post-op.
and i had never done those before,but i could do it in an hour after the first one.

eighth,i moderate on an iron duke forum,there are hundreds of people on thier who can help if i screw up.

ninth,im confident in my abilitys,you must belive you can do it before you actualy do it.

tenth,its just nuts and bolts,its not rocket science,i bought my car because it was an easy american car,very common parts and procedures,and millions of people who still own them .

eleventh,this is a future build,i allready said i need to do a complete bushing change and springs and bearings and brakes first,thats going to eat a buch of money,plus i need a welder and new compressor, the swap will hopefully be started sometime before spring.but i have to build the motor first .

twelth,this isnt some ''drop $10000 over nite and its done'' build.
all swaps take time,right now i am gathering info about the swap so i can minimize any screwups and set backs.

a good plan is a good start.

 

What about using a Quad 4 ?

 

if your looking to drop a 4-banger in...

what about a 1G 4G63T?

if your worried about it being a FWD engine, guess what.
the tranny from a mitsu mighty max/ dodge D50 (i think on the d-50) is a direct bolt-up.

the mighty max tranny is good to 250 HP. afterwards it turns to gear soup.

since your not worried about "extreme" performance, the 250HP cap shouldnt be a big deal.

if you want extreme performance, there's a guy out in florida who takes one mighty max tranny, and one tranny from a starion/TSI conquest and rips out the mighty max internals, and installs the bulletproof starion internals into the mighty max housing.

as far as cost, a junkyard 4g63T shouldnt run you that much. ive had opportunities to get entire 1g eclipse turbos for 500$. just gotta look.

make S-U-R-E you get the stronger 6 bolt (89-94) engine. as the 95+ ones had major issues with crankwalk at higher mileage. (that ive heard..never actually SEEN one myself.)

if you need any other info on this, check out
WWW.HYBRIDZ.ORG and search "4g63"
or i think theres a little bit over at www.zcar.com as combination has been done before in an older datsun Z car.

anyways, dont let these guys get to you. it's YOUR car, and i commend you for trying to be different.

 

thanks for the info, but after after going over all the options in my price range and my capability,im probably gonna build a 2.5 stroker.

its the 3.0 crankshaft in the 2.5 duke.
ill have about the same hp and tq as a stock 181 but i wont have to get another trans or heads or intake or exahaust.
plus cam kits are cheap for the 2.5,and parts are alot easier to find.and i know it will work with the stock tbi and ignition. and the only machining i would need to do is on the crank.

but if i had more money i would do that vortec 5 banger swap.

a 200hp dual over head cam 5 banger!!!! put a turbo on that and i garauntee i would beat more than one small block in a race.


but i would need another $2500 at least to do that.

and as far as the quad goes,those motors are junk,a friend of mine went throu 4 of them in 6monthes,they just kept blowing up and dying. and he wasnt even driving it hard,just normal city driving.i would never even consider one of those,they just are not reliable.

 

and i suppose 2 + 2 = 6 right?
during the time when Offenhauser made its name, V8s were almost unheard of, inline 4s and 6s were the norm. and well... i'm going to bet Enzo Ferrari knew what a motor plate was. you on the other hand didnt have a clue. i think you're shooting a little high with your inspiration.

have you ever been inside an engine before? i'm going to bet not.

 

yes,this is my first horseless carrige,in fact,ive never even popped the hood on a car before,i dont even know what cars run on.

whats a wrench?i have never heard of it.

what are those round thingies,theres four of them,what are they called?


i dont know because i dont have a v8.

only people with v8s have the technology and intelligence to
work on cars.
everyone knows that.

what was i thinking? i thought i could unbolt stuff and bolt in new stuff!!! with only a four cylinder engine!!!!thats just crazy talk!!


did you know that tools and books are only allowed to be sold to people with a v8?

in fact,its common knowledge that people with v8s are the only people with the mental skills to hold a wrench.


but ,if i had chosen to buy a v8 ,i would instantly have been bestowed with all the mechanical knowledge of
the known world.

but no, i bought a four cylinder, i have begun reverting back to a primordial cave men. i have lost all knowledge i once had ,even the most basic mechanical skills have left me.

what are those round things again?

 

Hey i respect that man (and im a v8 guy go figure!?) just do it right and prove all the naysayers they'r wrong!

I do however think that there should be a turbo build in the works as well...

 

the bottom end wont handle more then 150hp.

first i have to build a stroker,then i can worry about forced induction.

 

not saying its not possible to do, but if you have never changed an engine before, stock to stock, transplanting a mill that wasnt even intent for an automobile is going to prove VERY tough. not only will it be tough to mount, but it will be tough to get to run correctly, cool correctly, and make power in the proper RPM range. why not get another 2.5 and build from that? there are tons of parts out there that can be modified slightly and made to work, if not direct bolt ons. best of all, when you're done building, it will bolt right in no hassles, no one off parts to refabricate if you ever break something. for your first swap, stick to something that parts are readily available for, and stock parts to bolt it into the car are available for. a project like this is way too deep for a first engine swap. it will cost you a fortune, take you forever, and when you get done you'll have something that isnt worth the scrap metal its made out of. nobody wants to buy a car that is pieced together from marine parts, and *** knows what else.

 

Holden versions of the L67 are orientated for rwd & have side inlet upper manifolds.

The biggest issue is tracking one down. Even on ebay.au they're hard to find.

 

i all ready said i talked to a boat guy and he said the 3.7 is crap.

the 3.0 WILL work,but it will require more machining then a
2.5 stroker.

i plan on just rebuilding a 2.5 with the 3.0 crank.that way i will have a bullet proof bottom end plus i should have a 50hp increase over the stock 80.


after that i will start on the supercharger for it.

 

ok heres what i see. you contradict yourself more times in this thread than John Kerry did in his entire election campaign. first you want to "blow away" civics. yet you dont want big horsepower numbers and you arent going to race it...?

secondly. 150hp is 70 more than your rated at now (notice i said rated at, you DO NOT have 80 hp. <- notice the period.) 150hp is still going to be dog *** slow and those civics you were just making fun of will STILL beat you.

thirdly, i dont know if its been mentioned before, but boat engines are meant for constant rpms. not varying rpms like a car motor does. i call on it having a flat hp and tq curve. hell i call on it even MAKING torque.

forth, just because you have a gm car doesnt mean any gm engine ever made will bolt in. thats far from the case. there are these things called motor mounts. and unless this mighty boat engine you are planning to build has mounts in the exact same location as the duke its replacing, its not going to just bolt right in. gm engine or not.

fifth, i suggest you seriously step back and look at your financial position. just because rebuild kits are cheap doesnt mean that everything else will be. custom made parts are going to nickle and dime you to death. i suggest you sell your firebird if 4 cylinder performance is so important to you and take a look at what modern day turbo 4 cylinders run. hell take a look at www.honda-tech.com in their forced induction section. there is NO gm 4 banger you can EVER build to touch even some of the mild setups.

personally i have an L98 in my trans am. but before this car i had a 2.8 that i wanted to turbo. notice how i refer to that car as past tense. reality set in and it turned out to be easier on paper than in practice. theres a reason most people swap in v8s. because thats what works. because thats whats easy. ect. if you want to be different, dont build a 350 or 383 with stock heads and a small cam. build something respectable. THAT will make you different.

 

 

dude for what these cars weigh...a v-8 is the cheapest F anything but..or I'd buy a honda and smoke it lol

 

I think I've come to the point that I have to say enough is enough.