I am getting a 327 block freebie and am wondering what its gonna take to build a 11.5-12.0 1/4 street car. How much money will I need to be spending? Anyone have a good link to some good 327 build articles/sites? Also how much HP at the wheels is a 12 1/4 in a 3rd gen with average weight?

PS: I want to do a 327 not a 350 because my uncle swears up and down its a more reliable better performing engine.

 

A 327 is a much better engine than most people give it credit for. If i was you i would use a 350 block tho. It is basicly the same block only it comes in 4 bolt mains instead of 2 bolt like the 327s. Try and get forged internals, i think the 327 cranks were forged stock but dont quoat me on that. Get some 200+cc heads, agressive cam, somewhere around 10.5/1 comp, 750 or 800 DP holley, holley street dominator intake, and make shure the rest of the divetrain can take the power.

 

Yeah I just ordered the build book... Awsome title of 460hp all motor from a 327. Yeah I plan on doing forged crank and steel push rods so i can spin her real high.

 

Be carefull spinning it high. Even though the stroke of the 327 is better for high revving you will need to seriously upgrade the valvetrain so you dont run into problems later.

 

You'll spend close to $8000 to go that fast on a 327, and streetability will be tough to accomplish.
What's the expression; cheap, fast, reliable, pick any two. Reliable is like streetable.

Your uncle is list most of the 'uncle, grandpa, dad, etc', the old folks like their old ways. Just because it worked for him to go "fast" (lets say mid 14's in the quarter) in 1969 doesn't mean it's the best option now.

you'll need in the range of 430HP at the wheels to go that fast. Say 500HP at the crank.

 

easy....build a stockish 350 and toss on some nitrous for a budget build. Otherwise we're talking 200cc aftermarket heads, big cam, 350+ cubic inches, etc etc. A 327 that runs 11.5 on motor would be sooo unstreetable and a pain to drive for a cruise night that it wouldn't be worth it. Now a 12.0-12.5 350 engine would be an easier task to accomplish.

 

Mid elevens to flat twelves will be pretty tough on a 327, well, at least without giggle juice. My bro's 69 has a built 327 in it. It wasn't cheap, but not really anything more than putting money into a 350. To run that low though, look to put serious money into the lower end and top end if you want to make sure that it will take the abuse. Oh, and my bro's 327 should run ~mid 12s (aftermarket world motown heads, comp cams cam, 10.5:1 compression. We don't have a track to close by anymore, so no time slips. With a 350 you will gain some more power with the extra cubes. In terms of a 327 being more reliabe...a 327 has the same bore as a 350 but with a different stroke. With the same material crank, not really a whole lot of difference in reliability. 327's are cool, its just most people on this board really dislike them. Sorry for the long winded response.

Gilley's86

 

Idk honestly I am aiming to be the fastest car in town. The only competition is a honda hatch with a 2.0 acura swap that supposedly runs high 12's and an allwheel drive turbo eclipes of my friends who says he runs 11's with bolts ons and a bigger turbo. Honestly I think I'll be safe to beat em running a 12.5. I know 327's are hated among the newer crowd IE uncles grandpa ect. but my uncle is no fool. He is in the middle of doing a complete resto on a 69 chevelle with a 460hp 396 sitting on the chassis. I discussed what I wanted to do to my car with him and was telling him about putting a 355 in and he said that a 327 is the way to go due to how easy it is to build a good power combo. He went to justify what he said by bringing up the 370 stock hp 327's from the 60's and that was enough convincing for me.

So my goal is a 12.5 on motor 327. I'm looking to invest $2000-$3000 but cheaper is better.

 

the faster you want to go the more money you will spend. now doing the work yourself saves alot. i dont have the know how to do it my self. i could prob do it but dont want to do trial and error on a few grand worth of parts. there is an engine shop here in pa i just contacted about an engine build for my iroc. it is going to be a 400 c/i dart block, eagle forged crank, i think eagle or je forged 6"conecting rods, 10-1 je forged pistons, specs on cam not determend yet but it will prob be a lunati cam, dart pro 1 heads with 208 intake valves, changed valve springs for the roller cam, street roller lifters, crane roller rockers, basically i will need to put intake, carb and distributor in it. but the owner of the shop told me the motor will be 625hp maybe a lil more. but here is what i really like about it. he said it will scream to a safe 7500 possibly 8000 rpms. all for 6500 bucks all new parts. i think thats cheap. im going to get it.

 

Unfortunatly your uncle is wrong...wrong and more wrong. It's easier, cheaper and more reliable to build a 350 than a 327, period no questions asked. The same can be said for a 400 when compared to a 350 only it isn't cheaper.

Making power is all about putting more fuel and air through an engine in a given time period. To make the same power out of 327 as a 350 you are going to have to turn more rpm's, and that takes away from your reliability, and adds to your cost. The bottom end of your motor is NOT going to limit your rpm potential, it's all in the valvetrain and there is nothing different betweent he 327 and the 350. You can go ahead and live 30 years ago when people still believed there was something "magical" about engines, or you can get with the times and learn something for yourself instead of taking peoples word for it.

I just noticed you wanted to spend less than 3000$, no way your going to get into the low 12's with that budget and your stock drivetrain. At about 300 hp the stock trans and rear start breaking. Add slicks into that equation and the outlook looks even bleaker.

Sorry to be so harsh, but this has been covered a million times on thirdgen in about every forum. When your talking about making power at less than 8000 rpm your bore and stroke ratio mean nothing, thats coming from some of the most respected names in engine building. It's all about displacement.

 

I never said I would have a stock rear and trans... We're talking all motor here asume my rear and trans are ideal. I still wont accept the whole "That cause they are living in the past thing". I'm doing the 327 even if its to save me a little gas.

 

86Irocterror, just wondering, is that hp on just the motor on pump gas? If it is and you get those numbers on the Dyno, I want your engine builders phone #. Also I know this a subjective term, but how streetable will it be?

 

The only difference between a 327 and a 350 is the rod to stroke ratio, Every other component will have to be changed to reach your power goal. In the last issue of Engine Masters the question was asked as to how important rod to stroke ratio was. Every one agreed that it had little to no effect whats so ever on overall power output or logevity as long as it was in the ball park. The extra 25 cubic inches of HP will make a huge difference in power and streetability. If your worried about gas mileage and want to run low 12's or high 11's your kidding yourself. Don't expect much above 10 mpg. The only way to get gas mileage at that power level is to run some form of power adder. That way you can get away from the big cams and huge heads you'll need to make 450-500 hp.

 

327 likes smaller cam so take that into consideration...

 

No it doesn't "like" a smaller cam, in order for a smaller engine to have the same idle characteristics and power band as a larger engien you have to run a smaller cam. This will in turn produce less power.

I really don't think you realize how wild of an engine it's gonna take to run the ET you want. It's going to be borderline unstreetable, and no where near economical. It'll idle over a 1000 rpm, and you'll need at least a 3000 rpm converter. You'll probably have to resort to some kind of solid tappet valve train to turn enough rpm, which will require valve lash adjustments every 3-5 thousand miles.

 

My question is, which 327? Wasn't there a small journal 327 and a large journal 327? And isn't the large journal 327 the same as a 350 anyways, just with different crank, rods, pistons? And so then couldn't just about anything be done to/with a large journal 327 block as could be done to/with a 350 block?

(this is why 3 years later, I still retain the "newbie" in the name lol)

 

You are correct, the only problem is that the large journal 327's are pretty rare. At the power level Ronin is wanting to make he's going to need an aftermarket crank anyway. So he could start with a 350 block and just get a aftermarket crank to fit.

 

OK - so I'm not crazy then! (well, in this regard anyways)

My 350 is actually a 327 - and I tried explaining this to my brother, but to no avail. The block castings match either a 327 or a 350 from 1969, however there are only 2 bolts as mentioned above, making it a 327 (the 350 with my casting # had 4 bolts). However my crank numbers are for a 350, so for all intensive purposes it's a 350 (I guess).

SBC - gotta love it - cool and all at the same time!

 

ZIMGTA---streetable is a loose term.lol. practical no but i will need other stuff to make it more drivable, like depending on my cam that i go with i will be putting on a vacume pump for the brakes. the hp the guy at the shop told me would be at the motor on pump gas. he didnt say anything about torque numbers though. when i called about the estimate and told him what i wanted he said ok let me work it up for you and call you back. when he got back to me he assumed it was for the strip only.lol when i told him it would be used mostly on the street he said im nuts. but to use it on the street moreso then not he said to add 200 bucks to the total for a special street roller lifter. when its done it will be used at the strip now and then and on the street to go to car shows and such. id say is it streetable......to me yes.to others no. it will have a tremec 5 speed behind it with a spec stage 4 possibly stage 5 clutch. moser 12 bolt rear and wont be tubbed. i just tell everyone it will be drivable if i stay off the throttle. plus for track use im looking into possibly a nitrous kit as well.

 

If the crank is for a 350, it's a 350. Period.

The number of main bolts has nothing to do with anything. It's just how the block was machined after casting. It's possible your block could have been a 327 at one point in its life, but that means absolutely nothing now.

 

i have a 327 in my Trans Am now. i like the fact that the motor is different. how many 350's do you see at a cruise night/car show?? tons. i like the fact that i can go to a show and there's maybe four 327's there (including mine) and the other three are in stock late 60's corvettes or camaros. i'd rather have an engine that is unique than and extra 50hp. JMO though.
i have maybe $2-3K invested in the engine and the dyno said it has 240rwhp at 5800rpm and 276 torque at about 3800rpm. i've only been to the track once and my best time was 15 seconds flat at 93mph. that was from a standstill. being that my cam is so big, it drains the vacuum on the breaks so i wasn't able to get my rpm's up before the launch. that was also on street tires. with some practice, a line lock, and some drag tires i'm positive i can be running low 14's or high 13's. that's pretty respectable for a street car.

 

I plan on hitting 400-450hp crank. All forged bottom, custom grind crank, and fuelie heads. Along with the rest of the necessaries. I'm hoping for a 13flat or high 12's but if theres one thing I've learned its dont come to TGO for support on any engine smaller than 346ci. teamcamaro.com is the place to go to get a good 327, 307, or 302 build.

 

I'd say stroke it if its a large journal block, like the 350 used. Build a 383 or a 396. If not... ProCharger Build a bulletproof bottom end and valve train so it can handle alot of RPMs, build it with about 8:1 CR and crank up the boost. Easy low 12s or 11 second car right there with a set of 3.73 or 4.11 gears. I know a guy who put a ProCharger setup on an otherwise stock '85 5.0 TPI car, and its running something like 13.50s with a mere 6psi.

 

Scrap the fulie heads and get some good aftermarket heads that out flow the old fulies.

 

i agree bullet proof bottom end and a power adder keep the street ability for cruise night and pull off running on pump gas pull up to the strip switch tanks arm a 200hp shot reasonable affordabillity all around

 

Save a little gas? You're talking about running 11.5's with a small motor, and you're including fuel economy in the decision?

This really is a "living in the past" recommendation you're receiving. Sorry, there's just no other way to slice it. The reason you don't get much advice here on how to build a small engine to go fast is wrong assumptions always accompany the question. A "free" 327 will cost more to get to 11.5 than a 350 you have to buy. "But my uncle said..." - sorry, your uncle really is living in the past, and the sooner you start this build using his advice the sooner you'll learn that. A 450 horse 396? Hey, been there, got that. But, then, I wasn't out to achieve a certain performance level, I was just was using what I had.

If building the 327 because it's what you have is your reason for doing it, fine, but don't expect it to be the easiest, best, or cheapest way to achieve any particular performance level.

 

Listen its going 327 30 over no matter what anyone says to me on here. What I do with it is the only weigh yull have. So now that I am buiilding a bullet proof bottom end and have plans for bullet proof fuelies I am considering a power adder.

My question now is if everyone thats not a classic style builder tells me aluminum racing heads where do I go for a reasonably priced pair? I want some recommendations in this department because I know I have awsome aluminum heads in one hand for $1700 with rockers and $900 fuelies in the other hand. What is the happy medium and are there any reasonably priced aluminum racing heads?

 

You don't necessarily need aluminum heads. Dart, makes great iron heads that flow great numbers for much less thatn $1700. Ditch the fuelie heads though. I've been, there, I've done that. L98 heads with 1.94's flow better than my 186's did with 2.02's, times and technology change. They are a great collector's head, and with a lot of money invested in a pair can be decent, but you'll have other problems to worry about, like accesory holes, unless you have the 186's mentioned above. Seriously, look in dart or world, or some other manufacturer's iorn heads, they'll out flow the old heads hands down. Just my .02.

Gilley's86

 

how come everyone complains about no accessory holes on fuelie heads??? i have 461 heads and just drilled a hole, tapped it and now i have the accessory hole i needed for the alternator bracket. it's not a big deal - only 10 minutes of work.

 

See you say $1700 dollars... I can get aluminum heads for $1700. I want racing heads that will add up to about $1000 or less. Even if it has to be not the best product or chokes me a little power.

 

i think you can get a good set of castings for a 1000 or less but the work and parts are gonna run you a another 1000 to 1500 to run the #s you want unless you have a flow bench. 2500 an your small block will pump gobs of air for a mean small block with the right parts put with it.

 

Fastburns ($1300) or Edelbrock E-Tec (~$1150).

Use a Vortec-style intake.

 

edelbrock i used them on a 350 in my cutlass nice heads an makes good power on this pretty much stock block not running 11s though but i knew that building the car its a comuter gets good gas mileage to. high 13s go fast in the camaro

 

You went from wanting to run 11.5-12.0 to hoping to get into the 13's. You went from "better performing" to "327 no matter what". Will do whatever it takes to have to save money.

You're all over the place in what you think you'll get and what you want to get out of it, put down those who point out deficiencies in your approach, etc., etc., etc. I don't have a problem with you "seeing the light" and lowering your expectations, but don't put us down in the process.

You still haven't answered whether this is a small- or large-journal block. If it's small journal, it has a steel crank, which is half-way to "bulletproof". Forged pistons, resized shot-peened rods with ARP bolts (I'd say aftermarket, but small-journal are going to be very pricey), and you're pretty much there. If large journal, it's a cast crank and it doesn't make any sense at all to get a forged 327 crank when you can get a forged 350 crank for much less (read: volume), and make more power in the process. A bulletproof 350 will always cost less to build and make more power than a bulletproof 327 - that hasn't changed.

I suppose we also need to know what you think "bulletproof" really means.

 

exactly and if money is a big issue look at some crate motors good cost affective alternative!

 

I'm not "putting anyone down" I just kinda hit a wall on my budget when it came to heads and cant opt for $1800 heads. It was a simple statement and I'm pretty sure I didnt offend anyone. I havent gotten the block yet so sorry I cant tell you if its large or small journal yet...

As far as the build goes it all up in the air what parts ect I am here for suggestions and advice. I know most anyone here says go 350/355 its cheaper but until I do enough research to find out how much cheaper (which I'll be doing tonight because I want to find out if people are bull ****ting me or not about how its so much cheaper) I'm staying 327. If the block turns out to be large journal we'll go from there but if its small journal the 327 is getting built.

As for being all over the board with what Im doing, sorry I'm getting 10 different suggestions on each of the 3 forums I am on.

 

Good enough. I was out racing for 2 days when you first posted this, and was busy all day the next two days with family things, so I came on board pretty late. And, most of what I was addressing was written before I first read the thread.

I don't have any problem at all with you building what you've got. I'm just saying don't assume getting to any particular performance level will be best achieved with it. Before I came across the 350 shortblock I currently have, I was seriously considering a 327, and lost an eBay auction on one I figured I could pick up while out in Pomona right after the auction ended. The ZZ4 shortblock came up later, and I'm sure I'm better off with it.

Probably the best performance/$ head package you could get is the sdpc2000.com upgraded Vortec heads with RPM intake, gaskets, head and intake bolts, and rockers for right around $1100 plus shipping. With a healthy cam up to .575" lift, that would be a heck of a running 327 (or 331, or whatever it is when you get done rebuilding it) - even a large-journal with the stock crank.

 

I dont know I am getting pulled in so many directions on this one I am considering just going with the cubes...

If the 327 I get is LJ 30 over plus a 350 crank is 355ci correct? Also I started looking at prices ect and discovered that after market cast is like $180 for a 350 crank and $600 for a forged 350 crank while the forged 327 is $300. I started crunching number in my head and with school i dont think I can pull of this "bullet proof" forged bottem end I am aiming for. After all I dont know why I am even building it like that I am going to be afraid to take it past 6500rpms and thats what a cast goes in the first place. Maybe your right and I need to rethink this power to cost ratio. Even if I do go with a power adder a cast after market bottem end could hold 6psi I thinks....

Everytime I would see you replied on here 5 I would be like omg no hes bashing me again f him but maybe I needed that sense knocked into me...

PS: Plus I started looking into 355 builds with 420hp from stock $600 vortec heads...

 

What I've seen around here is that people don't mince words when they tell you you're off-base. They've done (and continue to do) the same to me. It isn't personal.

Here's what I would recommend you do: Rebuild the 327 shortblock with good forged pistons, have the rods reworked (magnafluxed, ARP bolts, shot-peened, resized), turn/polish the crank as required after it's been magnafluxed. ARP main bolts wouldn't be a bad idea, either. That will produce a shortblock that will spin to 7000 RPMs without a wimper.

Stab a Comp XS282S solid lifter cam (don't be afraid of solid lifters - they're pretty cool, actually), top it off with the aforementioned Vortec package and 650 DP Holley, and you won't be disappointed. It won't have any guts below 2500 RPMs, but after that, hang on! This will probably run you somewhere in the $2000 range for approximately 375-400 peak GFWHP.

 

Problem is I am ONLY getting the block so buying all new crank/rods/pistons would be alot cheaper if I did a 350... Which is why I am reconsidering... Plus the 350 has ***** all the way through its rpm band and it doesnt take forged parts to make it ideal for what it can do.

The way I am starting to look at it...

327 = high rpms for power = forged = mad cash
350 = low to mid rpms = Aftermarket cast = reasonably priced

I am really starting to rethink doing the 327...

 

If you want good heads on the cheap, go find some Vortec iron. Even a set already modified for a larger cam will still cost you less than $100. Their 62-64cc chambers would be just right for a 327 as well. Just get a Vortec-specific intake, and you're good to go.

 

That changes everything. Unless it's a large-journal block, you should probably forget it unless you can find a rotating assembly fairly cheap (like on eBay). If it is a large journal block, you can find 350 rotating assemblies very reasonable.

 

Yeah well the rotating assembly is half the price for a 350... Ya werent kidding when you said it was cheaper...

Right now I just have my fingers crossed it turns out to be a large journal block. Gonna get the block machined and fixed up, throw in a scat cast 350 crank and go from there... Its been in the back of my mind to build the block low compression for the option of a turbo later on. My reasoning behind that is because it can make a more streetable 450hp throwing a turbo on an 8:1 350hp block and tossing on like 5 or 6psi.

Like I said its all up in the air now that I did some more research. When I found out that a 350 bottem end is $1000 compared to a $2000 327 bottom end things changed...

 

If you do that it's going to be a dog until you everntually get around to putting a turbo on it. Might be netter to put hyper pistons in it now to give you a decent compression ratio now and swap them for forged later. "Later on" always seems to take longer to arrive then one expects.

 

Edited to tone down rant

Wow, a little research on your part proved that every thinge said here was indeed true......imagine that. Maybe next time you'll be a little more open minded and ask how and why instead of calling bs. I find I learn much more when I'm a bit humble.

 

i like the 327 idea i think build a bullet proof bottom end if its small journal its goona work iron vortech heads cheap alittle work these might work for the 1000 range the right cam shaft an a hit of juice nitro 200hp range an you are there cool motor and they love the rsss hope for a small journal or bag the idea and go for cubes zz4 short block be a good one i think

 

Yet some people still can't wrap their mind around the fact that you can do the same exact thing to a 350 for way less money, and end up with more HP and have the same RPM capability. There is no reason to build anything smaller than a 350 if making HP is your goal, you'll just wast money. The smaller stroke of the 327 will not magically make your engine turn another 1000 rpm. Sure put the same cam in a 327 as a 350 and it will have a higher power band, this is just the side effect of the added displacement of the 350 taming the cam down. Put the same parts on a 350 as a 327 and you'll make more power with the 350....period.

 

some people still can't wrap there mind around the idea that someone wants to have a motor that is DIFFERENT. unless you are building a car that is strictly for racing who cares about the extra HP? yeah it's cheaper to build a 350, but you see those every day in every kind of car. if you want to build a sweet 327 - go for it. it's only money. i'd rather pay extra to have something that sticks out. just my .02

 

Last time I checked no one is going to know the difference between a 265 and a 400, externally they all look the same.

 

Monte chill out. Its not like i said I was building a 305 jeeze...

O wait I was gonna build a 305 at one time never mind Lighten up it was an idea that I had to be a little different but when I realised I could save $1500 on the build and pour that back intoa turbo to make more streetable efficient power thinks changed... Fair and simple. That being said I still say power to the people who want to build different size motors. Personally I'm going for an 8:1 355 with forged pistons and rods aiming for 350hp and throwing a turbo on in the future. Thats my new plan