one92rs

iTrader: (5)

i agree a 700r4 to do all that in one of our cars seems pointless.

the one i did was in a 2002 ext cab truck with a modified 5.3 with heads,cam,longtubes, and more. i also put a 4l80 in it with a 175 shot of nitrous. the truck weighed in at 5100 pounds. the lock up i had set to do in second, third and fourth to keep it cooler. but after 3/4 throttle there was no lock up.

my 700 in the camaro will only lock up in 4th.

Atilla the Fun

I hope you realize that when you're not running drag radials, you're not gonna hook it up in first at WOT, even if you go with 3.42s and an 1800 stall.

one92rs

iTrader: (5)

not sure who that was aimed at. but if i do go to the trac then slicks will be involved for sure. got a buddy that has a set or two.

Atilla the Fun

I'm trying to type both for you and for anyone else who goes this route long after I'm no longer contributing. If you're running N/A, then 26" slicks with 3.73:1 gears is great. If you want to try nitrous, use 28" slicks, or 275/60R15 drag radials, for occasional nitrous / track runs, or 3.42:1 gears for larger hits of nitrous more frequently at the track on 26" tires with 10+" of tread width.
I hope you'll detail your experiences and results once you get the combination finalized. Not just dragstrip numbers, but mpg numbers, specifying average speed, and the things that can't be measured or numbered.
Also things like what brand of converter you tried, how you like it, the observed stall speed, and so on.
And how could I ask someone else for something I haven't done? So I'll begin working on getting my own results put together. I'll probably do mine in Word Perfect then cut and paste to myspace, then add a link to there from here.

Homer

iTrader: (1)

Post #8 looks interesting. What is the deal with the "small base circle" cam? Did it need to clear the connecting rods? How much more is a small circle cam? How does that compromise the valve train? Can I get different rods and use a normal base size cam? If it won't pass the sniffer, is it an aggressive race cam?

Can't find anyone making a dual plane EFI manifold. If I have an air gap modified, that'll add to the cost. I found a SuperRam on this site used for $1000. No one called him a ripoff, so it must be approximately right. Don't want to pay $1000 for an intake manifold. That's a decent down payment on that Whipple you were talking about. SuperRams, TPI's, HSR's are all single planes anyway. Must be a reason all EFI is single plane. I'll probably get a single plane made for EFI. Accel, Holley, Edelbrock all make one.

Block: 330817 Factory 2 bolt.
Head: 333882 Factory iron head.
Budget? It'll cost what it cost. I'm assuming 10K - 15K, but that number comes straight out of my butt. If it costs more, I'll just take longer doing it.

Atilla the Fun

I could duplicate this build for around $4500 even if I had to pay for machine work on a used block. A new block isn't necessary at this power level.
The cam has to be custom ordered anyway, and you can see the reduced base circle didn't cause any valvetrain dynamics issues at high rpm from the turque curve. The way it drops is what you expect of an engine running out of breath.
So why spend another $1,000.00 or so just trying to avoid the reduced base circle?

Homer

iTrader: (1)

I assumed there was some durability drawback to a physically smaller cam. If a stock block requires a small base circle cam, and they have no drawbacks on a daily driver, I'm all for it. The $1000 I was talking about was in reference to buying a super ram instead of a $400 or so single plane.

Atilla the Fun

I got that. But to avoid a small base circle, you're gonna hafta spend over $1000 for: a small-journal forged crank, small-journal rods, and a balance job. Those 3 add up to around $1000.

skinny z

Why the smallbase circle? Have I missed something?
I'm considering the Dart 4.125" bore block (the SHP) and a full Howards forged assembly. (Yes, I've moved on from the 383 build. Possibly)
I hadn't considered the need for a small base circle cam. I didn't think it was necessary.
I've included a link for the short block I'm looking at.
http://www.competitionproducts.com/D...o/DRT96123400/
For the record that's a crank with 350 mains and uses 6" rods.
With it I'd like to use my off the shelf Comp grind. 12-423-8.
Thanks.

Atilla the Fun

There are many rods available that are advertised as being ideal for strokers, but unless they use capscrews in place of traditional bolts, you still have to use a cam that is ground on the smaller base circle. If you do buy rods with capscrews, be sure they are American made, 4340 forged steel I'beams with ARP capscrews, then do a pre-assembly mock-up to slowly and carefully check to see where any grinding might need to be done to the rods.
Using that cam you have won't get you the exact results I listed, but it's up to you which way you want to go.
It's usually, quicker, cheaper and easier to change the cam than it is to buy new rods and have the crank re-balanced to match.
Back in the '70s, the 400s used special rods with shorter bolts. IdK why all rods didn't immediately switch to these shorter bolts to save weight and cost, but even today most aftermarket rods are made for the long bolts that the '70s 350 ( and others ) used.
These '70s 350 rods are cheap, readily available, and strong enough for a 400 to go to 6500 rpm if you use ARP bolts. But these do require a reduced base circle cam.
What you save on trick rods by using these will more than pay for the cam I listed.
That's why I typed what I did. There's your options, choose whichever seems best for you.

skinny z

Are these the Dart Platinum series heads or the version before that?
What would you anticipate the results to be if the SCR were bumped up to the 10.5:1 range. If I recall correctly, that intake lobe might want additional compression.

Atilla the Fun

Yes, you need the Dart Pro 1 Platinum version to get these results, or AFR's Competition port 180 Eliminator heads.
And yes, this would do best with a 10.5:1 static compression ratio. I wouldn't go over 11:1 even in Denver. In LaPaz, sky's the limit. But in LaPaz, I'd do a different build and run boost :-)

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

There is nothing wrong witha smaller base circle cam. Not sure why many consider that a factor when deciding to build strokers.

skinny z

Well the tracks I race at (drag race anyway) are about 600' above sea level. My best passes last season were on a day with an air altitude density of about 300" BELOW sea level. Cool day (less than 50f), low humidity and reasonably high barometric pressure.
I see there's a theme here with the 180cc intake runner. I understand and appreciate the merits of the smaller runner.
I just bought the Edelbrock 60739's (185cc runner. 70cc chamber.) from a forum member. One way or the other I'm going to incorporate them into the next build whether it's a 383 or a 400. I realize I'll compromise the real potential however it'll be interesting to see how the smallish cam (276/284, 535"/545" w/ 1.6 rr) will work with these heads.

After I checked my PM's I see that I've asked this same question regarding a 383 build. I suppose the situation will be even less robust given the added cubes.

Flow Numbers as tested by Edelbrock's SuperFlo SF-1020 flow bench @ 28" H2O #60739
Valve Lift .100" .200" .300" .400" .500" .600" .700"
Intake 73 140 200 238 244 244 -
Exhaust 61 108 144 163 175 183 -

As far as the small base circle cam goes, my only concern was the added expense of not being able to use my current cam. It looks I'm going to blow some extra dough to get my "made in the USA" short block. Just trying to soften the blow until the next go round of parts.
http://www.competitionproducts.com/D...o/DRT96123400/
(They will build it with a flat top piston). As it turns out though, if I get the short block listed in the link, I have to change hydraulic rollers for .300" longer bodies anyway so I might as well step up the cam too.
Ka-ching!
(Thanks for the loan of the thread Atilla)

Slowridr

iTrader: (1)

Atilla, just wondering how that 383 TPI do if the higher flowing FIRST intake setup was used. Have you ever used one on a build. If you have I would be interested in seeing what the max is you could get out of one. I see one on ebay all the time but dang they want @ 10K for it!!!

Heres the link

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Turnk...item1c12ad94b8

another

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Turnk...item1c12954406

You got more hp than that with the regular TPI setup and not the bigger FIRST setup! What gives? Surely there must be more to pull from this FIRST TPI system if you can get that from the regular one!

Atilla the Fun

Dyno time is still very costly, and most customers won't pay for it. Most of my customers who have paid for it won't sign a release to let me share their parts combination and results.
Most are copying a magazine build and believe the magazine results, so they won't pay extra for me to dyno it. Others think they know best, and that how it feels trumps what the dyno says.
But the builds that started this thread, these are nearly unbelieveable, because the results are so much better than what we expect after seeing other results from seemingly similar builds.
A TPI 383 giving 531 ft-lbs with just 10.6:1 and a mild cam, is because everything is sized relatively perfectly.
If you change any parts for something that would seem to help breathing, you'll lose lots of that amazing torque in exchange for a bit of peak power.
But average torque is always the ultimate goal. It usually gets overridden by ego or budget or both, but the dyno is impartial.
If you like the results, then gather the parts specified. If you change anything, then the only way to know the new result is a new dyno test.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Where does it say that? The SHP uses OEM style stuff. I"m using LS7 lifters in mine with no problems.

Atilla the Fun

Those Edelbrocks shouldn't need 185cc or 2.02" to get those flow numbers. Those are some weak and lazy ports. Better to just copy the Vortecs I'm about to show.

skinny z

There's a reference in the tech literature that says either .300" longer retro roller lifters OR oem style are required.
I followed that bit of news with a call to Dart and it was confirmed.
I have a set of retro rollers I'd like to reuse.

skinny z

I was surprised when I saw the results.
Respectable flow bench too. However Edelbrock gets their results they actually compare similarly to the Vortecs in terms of flow.
Intake runner volume too.
I can't comment on velocity or swirl.


Flow Numbers as tested by Edelbrock's SuperFlo SF-1020 flow bench @ 28" H2O #60719 | #60739 | #60759
Valve Lift .100" .200" .300" .400" .500" .600"
Intake:Edelbrock 73 140 200 238 244 244 -
Vortec 70 139 190 227 239 229

Exhaust:Edelbrock 61 108 144 163 175 183
Vortec 49 105 137 151 160 162

(Sorry for the jumbled chart. I can't edit it to get the columns to line up.)

Atilla the Fun

Why should it take Edelbrock 9% more port volume and 4% more valve diameter to get the same results? Lame. Vic's team sure dropped the ball on that one.

skinny z

I had to double check my numbers and I had forgotten the Vortecs are 170cc on the intakes. Score one for the Vortecs. That being said there is an additional 7% and 13% increase in flow with the intake and exhaust respectively. That has to worth something.
After the porting is completed on your current 906 project how much will the port volume have increased and what is your anticipated percent improvement in flow?
If we carry it a step further, what would be the improvement in porting the Edelbrock's.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I dont like the idea of limiting that SHP 400 setup witha 170cc port vortec head. For your goals of getting 11's, there are much better heads out there. I think you are handicapping yourself with those heads. They do make a large port vortec casting. #25534431. They flow abit better, 252cfm intake/171 exhaust at.500". 206cc casting I believe advertised at 215. Its not that big of a head for a 400 small block.

Your 185cc edelbrocks I think would be good over the 170cc stock vortecs. vortecs need work to handle a decent cam lift. You already have the 185's, just set them up for the cam. If you can get them opened up, do so. 400's need to breath

Atilla the Fun

My math says the Edelbrock 185s only flow 2% better on the intake side, and I know a 1.94" valve will do 244 cfm. I don't advocate ANY "Vortec" or Edelbrock on a 400.
As for the exhaust side, what I'm about to show in my thread on porting Darts will get anyone past the Edelbrock numbers.

skinny z

I agree. My notion of using the Vortecs (which have been upgraded with studs, guide plates, bee hives etc) was a stop gap measure until better heads came along. Same with the 276 cam.
Now that I have these Edelbrocks, I have to make the most of the situation. It most certainly means a different cam.

skinny z

I get a 7% larger exhaust valve with 13% more flow. 4% larger intake with 2% at .500" and almost 7% at .600".
I'm following with great interest your work on the Iron Eagles and the Vortecs. It's rare to get a look at a porting play by play.
If the time comes, and the Edelbrocks don't perfrom, I may be looking here for advice on how to upgrade them. Perhaps that will be to get a set of AFR's.

Speedfreak391

iTrader: (1)

You wouldn't happen to know a good engine package for a 69 327 with camel back heads would you? Possibly going in a 87 IROC with a th350 and 3.73 rear end in it. Would you? I am trying to build this on the cheap. Turbo in the future, looking to rev 6500+.

Atilla the Fun

Forget 6500, even boosted, with those dinosaur heads. You can sell them to some restorer for enough to buy Vortecs. If you insist on a stupid TH350, then you need a 4.56:1 axle to have enough effective first gear. Get a 200-4R, then get a 4.10:1 axle.
Also, you can sell that 327 crank for enough to buy a 383 crank. Scat's basic $230 version will hold 700+ HP and 6500 rpm if you keep it out of detonation.

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

Atilla - I'd like to hear your thoughts on my motor..

Here are the specs :

355 ci '96 Vortec 4-bolt block .030 bore w/ forged flat-tops slightly over 10:1 compression

Heads - '96 vortecs w/ intake and exhaust throat work, bowl work, bigger exhaust valves (1.56) all valves 3 angled, comp dual springs etc.. flowed 282 cfm @.550 on the intake side, forgot the exhaust side #'s, crane 1.5 gold rollers

Intake - Vortec tpi - mildly port matched, SLP runners port matched, ported plenum, 58mm Holley TB, 24# SVO's @ 39.5 PSI (Intake port work and PROM tuned by me)

Cam - Comp XR276HR-12 (.503/.510 224/230@.050 112LSA 108ICA)

Hooker 2210's (1 3/4" longtubes)

Here's a vid of it running: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfLWpAy0c1o

and backed by a T-56.. see sig. for rest

I'd like to here your thoughts on what you think it may make power-wise. It runs pretty good!

Mike

Atilla the Fun

Mis-matched combo. Either too good of heads and wrong cam, or wrong intake. 282 cfm heads with a 235 cfm intake gives 235 cfm. The heads aren't working, or maybe a better term would be: being worked, so you're losing a lot.
So, which of your 2 problems do you want to fix? You can go either way, depending on whether you want TPI grunt, or LS1-like power.

skinny z

Curious.
Is this a case of the Vortecs not being able to handle the lift? (Even though the heads are ported). I ask because I'm using the same cam (or was anyway) and had read about the Vortec intake ports stalling at higher lift (as we had discussed elsewhere).

Atilla the Fun

skinny, you forgot your caffeine :-) He specified that his heads were professionally worked to flow 282 at 0.550". With bigger intake valves and proper porting, this is possible. His heads want more lift than the cam he has. But a 224/230-112 doesn't belong in a long-runner TPI 355.

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

I knew you would say that...

However, my intake flows a little better than 235. It's probably closer to 250. (Yea, I know I could port it further and pick up some more power, I just haven't done it yet).

I'm going to have to disagree with you on the cam being mismatched. Just because my heads peaked at .550 , the numbers at .500 were still in the high 270's. Therefor I didn't see the need to max out my valve springs with a .550 lift cam. The intake ports on the heads are not opened up huge either. They are probably around the 185 - 190 cc range, with the intake base port matched to them. The head porter wanted to maintain velocity, where these heads shine. Most of the flow increase came from the bowl work and valve job. I'm still using 1.90 intake valves, the exhaust valves were upsized because this is where the vortec heads suffer (the exhaust side). Of course both intake and exhaust ports had throat work done...

There was a chevy high performance mag. article about vortec heads with less work than mine flowing in the 280's, I'll see if I can dig it out.

As far as my cam not working well with long runner TPI.... I do have semi-siamesed runners that I have ported the diameter and depth to pick up a few rpm's. The motor pulls strong all the way upto 6,000 r's. I suspect peak power is close to 5,500 (which is where I usually shift) but even to 6, the motor doesn't feel like it's dropping any power. Also, if you look at my particular cam on Comp Cam's website, this cam is designed for a TPI small-block. It's not just the lift and duration numbers that makes a cam work well with a particular intake, it's also the ramp speeds etc.. that's designed into the lobes.

If you are ever in the Houston area, I'd be happy to give you a ride. You may change your mind!

Atilla the Fun

I don't doubt that it's a strong performer, but if you want to strap it to a dyno and try some changes, I can find you another 40 rwtq easily. Start by getting your whole TPI system, all 4 pieces, Extrude-Honed.
Then get some 1.6:1 roller rockers and some COMP 26915 springs, installed at 1.75"
Don't even start in on cams with me, if all you have is what you read on comp's website. There's nothing magical in the lobes you have that the XFI lobes wouldn't improve on for your app, but the cost outweighs the benefits in your app.
You'd find more mid-range with the cam advanced another 2 degrees, you'd gain more there than you'd lose up top, and the car would be at least half a tenth quicker.
Lastly, your combo would benefit from 1.625" long-tubes, with ceramic coating inside.
Do all that, plus a tune, I guarantee another 40 ft-lbs at the rear wheels.

skinny z

Reading and re-reading this article and a million others...
My question regards the ZZ383 (which I'm contemplating purchasing) and it's very dished pistons at 15.5cc . (Specs courtesy of GMPP and Chevy High Performance).
How on earth do you build a decent compression ratio with 64cc heads, a stock deck height (+/- .025") and piston to head clearence of +/- .040"?
My calculations with a .015" head gasket , (which would provide the requisite quench) result in about 9.9:1.
I would think that to get the most out the combination, a SCR of at least 11:1 is desirable particularly if the cam is larger than 276 advertised intake duration. Taking advantage of the aluminum heads greater compression ratio capabilities would be what it's all about.
Am I misguided in this thinking? I understand the a full point in SCR is worth about 4% at peak torque/horsepower.

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

I've thought about bumping upto 1.6's, but with-out the intake opened up more, I didn't see the need. If I ever send the tpi to extrude hone, then I will probably change springs and use 1.6's.

As far as advancing the cam, downgrading to 1 5/8 headers.... I have TQ in spades, I don't want to sacrifice any HP up top

Atilla the Fun

You can half solve your dilemma just by having the TFS heads milled 0.030". 10.4:1 is close enough if you live at low elevation.

Atilla the Fun

So, in other words, if you were to sell me your car, I'd think it needs more traction in first gear. Drag Radials, double-adjustable shocks, LCARBs and a BMR torque arm would solve that.
You're not making enough HP to be benefitting from 1.75" primaries, unless you play with nitrous.

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

The exhaust ports match up well to the 1 3/4" primaries. 1 5/8 would choke off a little of the exhaust ports.

I already have upgraded LCA's, shocks, Adj. TQ arm set to -2* pinion angle, 315 drag radials, SFC's etc. etc.. The car doesn't have ANY wheel hop, but unless you heat em' up pretty well, 1st gear is still "almost" unusable on the street.

Atilla the Fun

If you're still shredding tires, try switching from whatever you have to M/T 275/60R15 drag radials. Yes, they are less tread width than any 315, but the longer contact patch compensates somewhat, and the Mickeys are FAR stickier than any other drag radials. Besides, with smaller contact patches, the rear weight has less area to be spread over, so there's more pressure pushing each square inch of contact patch into the road that much harder.
Try rubbing your hands together lightly, then just the heels of your palms with more effort. See, less slip.
Also, with the 275/60R15s, the extra diameter effectively changes your gearing, again helping traction.

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

There's a reason why I don't run Mickey Thompsons... It's called a 10-bolt!

Maybe when funds permit, the Moser 12-bolt will give me some piece of mind to run bigs and skinnies.

skinny z

If I were to start with a 70cc chamber (like Edelbrock 60739) I calculate needing to mill about .040" to get from a current 9.3:1 to a 10.3:1.
.055" to get the compression ratio to 10.75:1.
Sound about right?
At those amounts, I can imagine having to mill the intake as well, correct?

Atilla the Fun

0.030" would be 9.8:1, 0.060" would be 10.3:1. With 9.8:1 you could run regular unleaded all the time. Compression is good, but it isn't ultra-critical.

Atilla the Fun

I've heavily changed post 9 on page 1 of this thread.

RTLACY

Atilla,

You Sir, are a steely eyed engine GURU! I detect no sign of BS in your recommends and suspect you have been at this for more than a few seasons. Your patience fielding questions from all comers is most admirable. How about one more from someone whom - I suspect - has it wrong after more than a "few seasons" of reading so called "car crafting" magazines. (I can remember when HOT ROD Magazine was the only one - at least in my grocery store).

Specs:
*ZZ4 Short Block
*Ken Dutweiller, TFS aluminum 23-degree,195cc Intake,64cc CNC chambered heads, 2.02" Int / 1.60" exh.
(I understand you are not a fan of these?)
*TPIS .030 head gaskets
*TPIS ZZ9 hydraulic roller cam - .483"/.520" lift intake/exhaust with 212/226 degree duration @ .050" lift. Advertised duration is 282/287 degrees.
*1.5 Roller Rockers
*TPIS "Big Mouth" Base - port matched to TFS heads
*TPIS "Big Tube" Runners
*Ported stock plenum - per TPIS instructions
*TPIS 52mm TB with air foil
*Edelbrock 1 5/8" Ceramic Headers and Cat. Back
*MSD Ignition

Other:
*T-56 Aftermarket Transmission
*MOSER 9" with 4:11 and Auburn Posi

Car is original TPI car ( 88' IROC-Z)

HOT ROD Mag says the ZZ4 pistons set deeper in the hole than most SBC. Instead of .025" they measured theirs at .031.5".
I found the ZZ4 flat top pistons listed with -6cc valve reliefs (that's for all 4 of them I guess). Kinda negates the value of aluminum heads. Even if I use .015" Fel-pro #1094 that only nets about 10:1.

Looks like I made a bunch of bad choices. Question is how do I fix it? Mini-Ram? ZZ409 Cam? I like the idea of the Mini-Ram & ZZ-409 cam since everything else on the car is geared toward higher RPM. Do you recommend a different bore, pistons, stroke? Make a boat anchor of the $1300.00 TFS heads?

Help me maximize my combination.

Atilla the Fun

Thanks. And it is mis-matched. I don't hate those heads, there are worse choices. The wisest course depends on your goals. If you value acceleration above driveability, then the Mimi-Ram is the first change to make, with a matching chip. The mis-match of cross-sectional area, in the intake path, is hurting the 350, and must be addressed, whatever else you do. The AFR 180 heads aren't enough better to justify the cost of changing, so after you're done with the intake and chip, the next thing is to save up for a stroker kit, probably with 12cc-dish pistons. That'll get the driveability up and improve acceleration.
Even then, the ZZ9 is good. Not perfect, but not yet needing replacement. I'd use 1.5/1.5 rockers as long as it's a 350, but go to 1.6:1 rockers for the intakes when you install the stroker kit.
And thank you for giving me all the relevant info you did.

RTLACY

ATF,

Thank you kindly for your quick response! Do you have a preference for a stroker kit? Forged pistons? What rods - 6"? H-beam or I beam? Pressed pins or floaters? Brand names if you can. Part numbers and I get giddy! FYI - The engine has never been fired. Is there an engine control system you find superlative?

Ray

Atilla the Fun

I carefully didn't specify any of that stuff, because it doesn't much matter which way you go.
If you're ever gonna add boost ( I would ) then I'd go for 2618-material forged pistons with even more dish. You can tell them apart from 4032-material forgings by the piston to bore clearance suggested. 2618s typically call for more than 0.004", while 4032s typically call for less than 0.003".
If you're gonna end up turning 6500 rpm frequently, then 6" rods are worthwhile. And that goes hand-in-hand with internal balance.
In very warm climates, I'm a believer in small-diameter Fluidampers. In very cold climates, the TCI Rattler has a few merits. But ATI is generally all-around good.

85gulstrandTA

[quote=Atilla the Fun;4515025]Carbureted 400
For those who can find a useable 400 small block, and can also
afford to top it well.

RPM TQ HP

2000 410 156
2200 418 175
2400 436 199
2600 460 230
2800 473 252
3000 474 271
3200 474 289
3400 476 308
3600 489 335
3800 501 363
4000 511 389
4200 517 413
4400 521 436
4600 524 459
4800 524 479
5000 517 492
5200 503 498
5400 495 509
5600 485 517
5800 476 526
6000 452 517
6200 441 521
6400 420 512


COMP 12-000-8, 3017/3038, 110 cam on a small base circle

000 is custom
Any more info on the cam?
Do you have one I can buy?
Iwas thinking us using a 294 solid 248 @ .050 with 525 lift

Atilla the Fun

Yes, 000 is custom. I then gave you the intake lobe (3017), the exhaust lobe (3038) and the lobe separation angle (110) If you can't look up the lobes on COMP's website for yourself, then you should pay me to go the extra mile for you.